alexkvaskov
New Member
How is it done? Other than radio and GPS, how do infantry recognize friendlies in the field at medium ranges through thermals?
Identifying friendlies through thermals
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Well you should always know where higher, adjacent, and attached are located, and what they're doing. Generally, if you're in the defense, or on post, you will be told if there are friendlies expected down-range. If you're at an LP/OP, you'll report movement, and if you can't tell friendly or not, you'll tell higher that, and they will figure out if there are friendlies in the area.
Not through thermals, but through NVGs, friendlies might be wearing IR tags that you can see.
In what context are you asking this?
Not through thermals, but through NVGs, friendlies might be wearing IR tags that you can see.
In what context are you asking this?
alexkvaskov
New Member
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Sheer morbid curiosity after too many video games and night vision/thermal demo presentation videos on Youtube..
Dismounted FLIR systems are still somewhat of a rarity. The AN/PAS-13 for example is primarily used on the M-240B and or M249. The ability to PID a target is based entirely on the FLIR image quality. State of the art aircraft mounted FLIR can PID individuals from many kilometers away, cheaper man portable systems the range is much less. Anyway, infantry aren't generally using thermal systems anyway so as of yet, not such an issue.
We use PAS-13D all the time, on our 240s. Far more frequently then PVS-17C. But you can't PID a lone infantry man at 500m, pretty much at all. If there was something really obvious, like he was carrying an RPG, or you could clearly see some other piece of gear that identified him as a hostile or friendly, that might do the trick. Otherwise there's basically no way that I know of.
Patrols entering friendly lines frequently have a way of distinguishing themselves, if they don't have comms, or can't use comms for some reason. Sometimes a hand and arm signal, or something else of the sort does the trick. That stuff is usually decided on in advance.
Friendly soldiers usually wear IR Strobes which basically emits a blinking light that can be seen by anyone wearing NVG's. These can't be seen through FLIR equipment though. I have heard of Thermal Strobes which emit heat but as far as I know these aren't used by any sort of military.
Apart from that the only way to identify friendly forces is through their equipment. Most modern day military forces fight terrorists or guerrilla fighters who usually don't have equipment like helmets, ballistic vests, or Bergens.
If you're using FLIR on a drone you should be able to distinguish friendly forces from enemies by the weapons they have or friendly forces will use a Laser Target Designator to point a device or pilot to the enemy.
Apart from that the only way to identify friendly forces is through their equipment. Most modern day military forces fight terrorists or guerrilla fighters who usually don't have equipment like helmets, ballistic vests, or Bergens.
If you're using FLIR on a drone you should be able to distinguish friendly forces from enemies by the weapons they have or friendly forces will use a Laser Target Designator to point a device or pilot to the enemy.
I should have worded my response differently. What I was trying to articulate is that on a percentage basis not that many ground pounders have FLIR, they are using NVG's. As you and I know, NVG's are not thermal. We have the PAS 13's for our 240's as well but that's the only FLIR system we have on the books for weapons.
Well I agree it's not a likely scenario. Given the prevalence of NVGs, and the use of IR tags, I don't see a situation where it will be a major problem. Worst comes to worst, I can swap out 13Ds for 17Cs in a few seconds. Thermals are more of a niche capability. They're necessary for crew serves. Riflemen don't need them at this point in the game. I'd like to see rails, and optics on our .50s and Mark 19s before riflemen start getting thermals.
BAE had a tech demo for a system designed to mask the IR signature of a vehicle set up on a CV-90
www.baesystems.com
BAE Improving Classic CV90 IFV
It can also use the tiles to display markings or messages to help prevent friendly fire.
Not in use yet, but it's clearly an area people are looking at...
www.baesystems.com
BAE Improving Classic CV90 IFV
It can also use the tiles to display markings or messages to help prevent friendly fire.
Not in use yet, but it's clearly an area people are looking at...
Combat Identification Panel also exist since the Gulf War, even if it's only use in numbers since the Iraq War. Its only for vehicles, but it's a technology that could be adapt for infantry in the future.
The problem with that technology is that it only work against low tech enemies. Against someone equipped with thermal imaging you pretty much put a big neon panel over your head screaming '' I'm here shoot me''.
The problem with that technology is that it only work against low tech enemies. Against someone equipped with thermal imaging you pretty much put a big neon panel over your head screaming '' I'm here shoot me''.
Just to be sure, you know thermal and night vision is not the same thing correct? Thermal systems are large. The ITAS was the TOW system sight, it could be used for recon, the MUCH better LRAS is the standard for scouting. Both these systems are far to heavy and akward to hump around. In a situiation where you would be using a thermal you would typically have the initiative and could take your time to detect what it was you were looking at. Which leads to.....
Western equipment, or at least the type I used typically had IR tags. Western kit is clearly obvious to a Western soldier. They are going to be wearing uniforms, LBEs, helmets and vests. They will have a certian posture that that is very noticable to another line soldier.
PEQ-15s used in conjuction with NVG's is a big one at night time for mobile ground pounders.
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You think that you'd be able to distinguish the difference between a molle flak with gear on it, and a Russian-style flak, with a 6-mag H-harness in front of it, through thermals, at several hundred meters? You can probably tell the difference between insurgents and friendlies, but if the enemy is another uniformed military, I'm not sure it would be so simple.
I agree with you that given that kind of professional kit you could not tell the difference. Assuming your also talking about the professional maneuvering that would most likely come from the type of troops who would be wearing it.
Alex_David
New Member
It might be possible if some sort of electronic 'markers' are used to designate friendlies but these maybe too expensive to be used by an entire army.
Recognizing and identifying soldiers in the field at night is extremely difficult but not impossible. The actual training starts with recognizing and identifying by day. But that means a lot of studying : hand-held weapons(riffles and machine guns), uniforms, helmets, kit and vehicles from every NATO, CIS and AIO country. (you never know who will be your next ally in the next conflict) Recognizing and identifying is like putting the pieces of a puzzle together. Once you're good at it by day and you know what to look for, you're able to do this by night.
Back at ISTC in Pfullendorf, Germany we trained SOF and SF guys during 3 week courses and it worked pretty well. It is however a skill that needs permanent training!
It's very hard to identify a single person through PAS-13Ds, at several hundred meters. Our unit recently got 3 PAS-28s, and those are ok. However when we were trying to ID OPFOR at night, and we knew for a fact that anyone outside of our perimeter was OPFOR, we still ended up using the CLU unit (we have a javelin attachement from weapons co. to us) instead of the 13Ds. They were just not very useful. Frankly I could see better through the PVS-14s then through the 13Ds. The biggest problem was that parts of the ground were different temperature, and were coming up as black and white.
You're certainly not going to be identifying uniforms or small personal gear, at any significant distance, through thermals. It comes down to this, the best way to know whether you're dealing with friendlies or hostiles at night, is to make sure all personnel know their HAS-A (higher, adjacent, supporting, attached) and maintaining good communication between the elements. Thermals don't help very much.
Do your people have access to a Lras3? It can reach out to XX,XXX meters, you can count the points of a Buck from 5 miles away, possibly much further. They are tier one stuff, if something goes foul you have to destroy it.
It's an artist's tool, you paint pictures with it. It gives you a massive recon capability. Give it to a handfull of guys along with some wheels, a radio and fire support and the scenario can become catastrophic.
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Never heard of it, sorry. Sounds like a great piece of gear. Is it a thermal sight, or thermal binos?
It's a tripod/truck mounted piece of equipment, a typical white hot black hot thermal. The only downside to it is your going to lose a weapon system on that truck. It was probably the most powerful device I've ever laid my hands on. There are pics of it on the net, Raytheon makes it.