Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
T0 put the entire fleet out to stop the boats and keep it there for long enough to have an effect, is going to cost a lot of money. One thing I have found with Liberal governments is that they dont like spending money, so I cant see this happening other than continueing as a spin subject.:ar15
It doesn't need to be sustained for long, it needs to send a message.

Expensive? sure but the immigration budget has blown out from $85m in 2007 to
$3b in the latest and that's budgeted for 1,000 arrivals per month. Last month we had 3,000 arrivals, that's expensive and a lot of school and health programmes to boot.

Anyway mods sorry for staying off topic but it does p...s me off:mad:
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I am sure defence could use that money wisely if given the cash injection of 3 billion after all they took 5 billion out, it's all monopoly money to Gillard and Co she got no intension of doing anything.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
It doesn't need to be sustained for long, it needs to send a message.

Expensive? sure but the immigration budget has blown out from $85m in 2007 to
$3b in the latest and that's budgeted for 1,000 arrivals per month. Last month we had 3,000 arrivals, that's expensive and a lot of school and health programmes to boot.

Anyway mods sorry for staying off topic but it does p...s me off:mad:
To echo the words of Assail, it P....s me off too!

How many Billions of dollars has it cost all of us taxpayers, and will continue to do so, since the current Government changed the rules? How many 10's of thousand have arrived by boat since then? Something has to be done.

Obviously the right policies have to be put back in place and if it also takes a long line of grey RAN ships lined up stem to stern patrolling between Christmas Island and Indonesia, to at least show that we are serious, then so be it, regardless of the cost.

I often wonder if the flood gates hadn't been opened, would we even be discussing the early replacement of ACPB's with another class of PB's?

If the ACPB's hadn't been flogged to death over the last 5 years, maybe, just maybe, they could have lasted till the SEA 1180 ships were due to enter service.

Call me a cynic, but maybe the reason that the SEA 1180 project was deferred to the never never, was due more to the fact that the ACPB's, despite their reported faults and shortcomings, are stuffed by being overworked and the current Government is looking for a short term fix to the bigger problem of border security, regardless of the fact that the RAN has a clear need for OCV's for reasons other than being a ferry service.

Sorry to the Mods for my rant too.
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
We've pretty much be advised that its going to be a busy period from now to the end of the year, and that the tempo will increase beyond what we are at now, and that's not a good thing.

Ive said before rapid purchase of OPVs like BAMs that we know we could get a hold of, as Spain is broke, and will haggle for the best price they could get for anything.

We could make this so much easier, UAVs cost less then a Dash-8 in the air, but by purchasing it gives light to the requirements of Op Resolute, regardless that it can last longer on station, provide more coverage and better set of eyes then the 8s, its ridiculous that they keep pushing it right. Purchase of a OPV from anywhere right now would be better then ADV Ocean Shield, which ive never seen up here, even when Ocean Protector is in dock and no one can tell me why its not helping instead of Frigate, surely it would be cheaper. Right now all of Op Resolute is political, dont for a second think anything being done by the government up here is for protecting the borders.

A change in government will mean the border will be smashed for a few months or longer, but something has to give. The Indonesians want no part in our border issues, that is why they have no ships deployed to assist. They only have a 10m boat and any local police vessels which have as good seakeeping as half the Sievs we board, the ports some of these Sievs have departed from is home to a Indonesian Navy Base with 20+ vessels berthed there. If we put pressure on them to get involved, watch how quickly the boats dry up. The ports they depart from are known to us, and to the Indonesians. A vessel carrying 100+ people is not going across the river if it sails south, they know this but do nothing but watch and hope it sinks in our waters.

If you guys are p***ed off, should think how we are these days. Frustrated by constant break downs, late night crash sails and a program changing daily. All we ask is for a boat that is reliable, and we can get the job done.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Last time I was in Indo, about 3 months a I went fishing at Merak, in the straights between Java and Sumatra, very busy port, lots of ferry trafic between the islands, and like the rest of Indonesia, there are ferrys, that look new and could cram a lot of vehicles and people aboard, then there are ferrys, that float,and have an engine, that can carry a lot of passangers on the deck,roof anywhere.... this is one of the suspect ports, and the near by town has an interesting "multi cultural" community, something that a westerner notices once outside ofBali.

Fishing was surprisingly good btw!
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Right now all of Op Resolute is political, dont for a second think anything being done by the government up here is for protecting the borders.
Thanks for your thoughts mate, Operation Resolute the biggest misnomer of the life of this government.
Its obvious to anyone with a dog watch of experience in border protection that there is a total lack of spine in what has been happening and the Silver Cab Company is performing well. But never mind, the PM is off to Jakarta next week to sort it all out
 

t68

Well-Known Member
But never mind, the PM is off to Jakarta next week to sort it all out
Goto to wonder how much borrowed money she will lavish on them and make look like she's doing something.

If we have to spend money why can't we install and pay for Facial recognition system tied to the passports so when they turn up on the boats we take a photo and presto
 

Jhom

New Member
Ive said before rapid purchase of OPVs like BAMs that we know we could get a hold of, as Spain is broke, and will haggle for the best price they could get for anything.
I think I am a bit offended by your tone there... are you suggesting that Australia as a nation should take advantage of a country in deep economic trouble? Thats so kind of you I dont even know what to say...

Have we done anything wrong?
 

weegee

Active Member
I think I am a bit offended by your tone there... are you suggesting that Australia as a nation should take advantage of a country in deep economic trouble? Thats so kind of you I dont even know what to say...

Have we done anything wrong?
Not at all, I don't think he was really meaning it like that, I think it was more of a tongue in cheek comment about trying to get the best price possible. But in reality you would imagine that a better price would come our way than if the shipyard was all ready at build capacity?
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Manoora and Kanimbla are heading back to the US for scrapping:

Defence Ministers » Minister for Defence Materiel – Sale of decommissioned Ships Manoora and Kanimbla

I would have thought they might have ended up being sold for scrapping in Asia or India, but maybe, because of US restrictions on where they end up is the reason for the scrapping back in the USA.

They have been tied up near the ANZAC bridge since late last year and of late there doesn't seem to be any activity on them (I go past nearly every day).

Well it will be a long trip across the Pacific, wonder if they will make it?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Manoora and Kanimbla are heading back to the US for scrapping:

Defence Ministers » Minister for Defence Materiel – Sale of decommissioned Ships Manoora and Kanimbla

I would have thought they might have ended up being sold for scrapping in Asia or India, but maybe, because of US restrictions on where they end up is the reason for the scrapping back in the USA.

They have been tied up near the ANZAC bridge since late last year and of late there doesn't seem to be any activity on them (I go past nearly every day).

Well it will be a long trip across the Pacific, wonder if they will make it?
Basically any US-sourced military kit, or kit which has a large amount of US content, will face significant restrictions on disposal. In the case of a warship, yeah... Not hitting the normal ship breakers.

They may end up getting towed out to sea for a Sinkex or something similar.

-Cheers
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Basically any US-sourced military kit, or kit which has a large amount of US content, will face significant restrictions on disposal. In the case of a warship, yeah... Not hitting the normal ship breakers.

They may end up getting towed out to sea for a Sinkex or something similar.

-Cheers
Yes I understand about the US restrictions, (the F111 disposal process is a good example of that).

I'd assume that anything useful has been stripped from both the hulls, but still they probably don't want some countries, (China comes to mind), to be able to reverse engineer as the ships are scrapped, as was reported to have happened with HMAS Melbourne when she was scrapped in China all those years ago.

The article that I've read about Melbourne on Wiki suggests that it wasn't till 2002 that the scrapping was completed.

As for the LPA's, yes be interesting to see if they are scrapped or end up as Sinkex targets, again according to Wiki, the US has disposed of 4 hulls in exercises and there are three inactive hulls left.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The article that I've read about Melbourne on Wiki suggests that it wasn't till 2002 that the scrapping was completed.
The disposal of HMAS Melbourne is a blot of negligence on the record of the RAN. That they sent the ship to the breaker in a non allied country with intact mirror landing system, arrestor gear, catapult, etc was outrageous. Melbourne was an amazing windfall for the Chinese that has probably done more than anything make possible their carrier ambitions.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
The disposal of HMAS Melbourne is a blot of negligence on the record of the RAN. That they sent the ship to the breaker in a non allied country with intact mirror landing system, arrestor gear, catapult, etc was outrageous. Melbourne was an amazing windfall for the Chinese that has probably done more than anything make possible their carrier ambitions.
So true, and on top of all the equipment that was left on Melbourne, that you mentioned, the Chinese reportedly asked the RAN for blueprints of the steam catapult system too, which was reported to have been rejected.

Should be put into a manual of what 'not to leave on a ship destined for scrapping', probably has already!

One thing I'm interested to understand, do other nations, eg, UK, France, etc, put the same disposal or resale restrictions on equipment as the US does?

As an example we sold approx. 50 Mirage III's to Pakistan, did the French have to approve that, or did we do the deal without their approval?

As far as RAN ships go, in the distant past a lot of our British designed ships appear to have ended up in Asian or Japanese breaker yards, did the UK put any restrictions on the end fate of those ships? And that raises the question too, did the UK put any restrictions on the disposal of HMAS Melbourne?

Looking forward, I'm wondering what would be the fate of the French designed Success, the German MEKO designed Anzac's, the UK built Choules or even the Collins subs, what 'say' do those countries have in their disposal?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think I am a bit offended by your tone there... are you suggesting that Australia as a nation should take advantage of a country in deep economic trouble? Thats so kind of you I dont even know what to say...

Have we done anything wrong?
Probably more a case of negotiating an arrangement of mutual advantage. Spain has an in-service design that appears to suit an urgent Australian requirement. Maybe a lease of up to three of the BAMs could be arranged to assess suitability and take the pressure off the ACPBs. All going well a license build could be arranged to build modified BAMs in Australia to replace the ACPBs and fill Australian shipbuilding's valley of death with the leased ships being returned to Spain as locally built examples come on line.
 

seatmarbella

Banned Member
Ive said before rapid purchase of OPVs like BAMs that we know we could get a hold of, as Spain is broke, and will haggle for the best price they could get for anything.
The Bams are a good deal, Spanish prices normally are already cheaper than others so there is no need to be in economic crisis for having cheap prices for Australia or any other country. It´s the skill, lots of engeneering manpower and just maybe litttle smaller wages which i am not sure about it, what makes spanish offers cheaper.

But if you consider that Spain is broke what about the other countries, Uk banks are in debt in 200 of their Gdp, Spanish banks in 50 of spanish gdp, so Uk banks have 8 or 10 times more debt than spanish banks...or the Us with huge public debt, like 20 times spanish public debt being just 5 o 6 times bigger in population.

But it is very easy to see who is more broken, it is who prints more money because they run out of money more, because import/export deficit is bigger, very simple.
Uk and Us rating companies and economic newspapers are just a shame, they are hiding their own economic disasters and shooting against the euro continuosly (as the competence international coin) until it blows in their noses. They fight using all what they can, against the dollar and pound devaluation danger, from printing money. That means libor manipullation, paper gold manipulation, rating companies manipulation and lots of media propaganda.
No one buys Usa or Uk bonds, its their federal reserve who does it printing money, their bonds are rated triple A and no one buys them, spanish bonds are rated by them as almost rubbish bonds and there lots of international people buying spanish bonds...we´ll see who collapses before.

To the newspaper to read lies that i will come here to tell you the truth.

And the Us has so big armed forces with so many navies, airplanes, subs, the Nasa... all that is paid simply by printing money and not devaluating it as it would happen to any other currency, so it is the whole world who has paid for all Us big armed forces giving international value to the dollar.
What you have to be aware that the Us has no merit at all in having so big armed forces, economic or society merits i mean, because they have a huge import/export deficit (petrol, made in china´s.....) and they have printed money for decades instead of any economic truth.
 

seatmarbella

Banned Member
Pure B.S. The world pretty much runs on T-Bills even with insanely low interest rates (at times below the rate of infaltion) there is no shortage of buyers.
First to say that this talk It also directly affects Australia, it is the biggest ally to the Usa in the region.
Australia has abandoned, like the Brics, the use of Us dollar as trade currency.
Australian PM Julia Gillard went to the parlament and started crying because they were making cuts to dependence pension in Australia.

According to contramedia sources for the BS like ex-Us Reagan economical assistant Paul Craig Roberts, or Goldmoney.com, or Jim Rogers, Uk Godfrey Bloom, Max Keisser, any of these said that China is nowadays the only Us bond buyer, and that was before the explosion of the mutual scandalous spionage. And if China appears it affects also Australia.

China is already quite trapped with Us dollars, so it is in their interest to buy Us bonds, but now appears the Snowden issue who scaped with 4 labtops and China being possibly the worst destiny for that spy software info. The Us politicians seem really angry with this matter. Add to that the territorial polemics between Japan and China where it seems Us is suppporting more Japan. Things go really tense with China, being the main Us bond buyer.

But things go worse yet, China is one of the countries where the Americans owners of computer commercial hardware companyes have put offshore the production factories, not the laboratories possibly which remain in the Us or Sillicon Valley. And that is a big pity for the Us, the most important commercial niche for the Us, the computer products, that could add a lot to their import/export deficit, they have put them most offshore in asiatic countries. But worse than that is the Lenovo chinese company, with important but minor American ownership, Lenovo is now n.1 computer producer in the world, with with all hardware tech (!) transfered to the chinese, so possibly now the chinese are the only country in the world, apart from Usa, that can develope and produce modern computers industrially. Usa gave too much transfer, strategic transfer but that is a Us private company deal. But anyway computer science is very extended today.

All these things make the geopolitical sphere is tense, something strong could affect easily Australia. Imagine dollar inflation or devaluation could make Us computer products more expensive, and swift totally also the computer market to a chinese monopoly, another one.
 
Lots of points there, possibly more relevant to the geo-stategic issues room though than the Navy and Maritime room.

back to the Navy, with East Africa in trouble, (somalia, Kenya), also issues in Pakistan, combine that with population pressures on the Indian subcontinent, (climate change affecting the monsoon, over-irrigation depleting ground water), there runs the real risk of large issues to the NW of Australia.

How is this relevant, it may mean that the large numbers of SIEVs instead of being a short term phenonomon may continue and continue for decades. Desperate people do desperate things. 193 million people in Pakistan alone and growing.

Thus resources may have to be allocated for decades to come with issues of small boats coming from the North West, unless of course people are optimistic that police corruption in Indonesia will stop anytime soon or alternatively people to our NW start living great lives and have no reason to come to Oz. I mention this because the people smugglers have to pay the local police to look the other way to allow the boats to go through (there was an audio recording released relating to this low level police corruption just yesterday)

So possibly a larger fraction of the pie will have to be allocated to inderdicting small boats, and a relatively smaller portion to vessels suited to taking on nation states. Alternative is for the pie to be bigger of course. I am sure the admirals and big wigs in charge do not see stopping SIEVs as more important than high level warfighting, however it seems more resources will need to be allocated.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top