F-18E/F good in air to air?

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flyman2009

New Member
Previously from the other thread locked, due to the hampty dampty question marks.

So is it a good plane fighting in air to air like maneuverability etc? that the super hornet performs as a fighter? is it a good air superiority fighter for the 21st century?

please mod, give me another chance, need this question answered.

but looks like its a good performer as a fighter but just want the answer to other members if it's suited as a air to air plane.

:lam
 
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Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Previously from the other thread locked, due to the hampty dampty question marks.

So is it a good plane fighting in air to air like maneuverability etc? that the super hornet performs as a fighter? is it a good air superiority fighter for the 21st century?

please mod, give me another chance, need this question answered.

i'm no hornet expert but looks like its a good performer as a fighter but just want the answer to other members if it's suited as a air to air plane.

:lam
Tell you what, go and have a read of this: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/air-power-101-new-members-12457/

And you'll get the idea that it's not always about the platform (that being the Super Hornet in this case) but the system of which it is a part. And a question like "is this aircraft good for air to air combat" is sort of like asking "how long is a piece of string", there's many other variables outside of simply the aircraft's specifications that will determine its effectiveness in combat. Aircraft don't engage in mano e mano gladiatorial combat, they operate as part of a multi-platform warfighting system. Within one such system, the primary operators of the Super Hornet, the US Navy, appear to have faith in the Super Hornet's ability to perform in air to air missions.

Please do read the link I've posted as it contains a lot more information than I have posted here and is very relevant for forming opinions on the effectiveness of warfighting systems - and that in itself can be far more relevant than just looking at a single combat platform in isolation. And please don't re-open threads that have been locked - we lock them for a reason. I hope this is more helpful to you than last time.
 

the road runner

Active Member
The US Navy thinks its good aircraft to protect the fleet.
ASEA radar , 11 hard points for weapons,its multi role so can swap from air ,to ground targets at the flick of a switch

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/docs/EF_overview.pdf

Add the Growler version into the mix and you have a aircraft that cam jam missiles that are locked onto an aircraft.It would be considered a "Multi role" fighter not a dedicated "air superiority fighter''

Anyhow an aircraft is only as good as the support it gets from additional units such as AWAC's aircraft and other aircraft.

Its not about plane "X" versus plane "Y" ,its about the complete package and supporting aircraft that gives a picture of the battle space.

Edit.. To quick for me Bonza!
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Previously from the other thread locked, due to the hampty dampty question marks.

So is it a good plane fighting in air to air like maneuverability etc? that the super hornet performs as a fighter? is it a good air superiority fighter for the 21st century?

please mod, give me another chance, need this question answered.

i'm no hornet expert but looks like its a good performer as a fighter but just want the answer to other members if it's suited as a air to air plane.

:lam
Yes, it's good. It's got an excellent radar, excellent sensor and electronic warfare systems, excellent weapons, combat and communication systems, it's extremely maneuverable and it's very easy to fly, which means the pilot can concentrate more on the fight itself, rather than simply keeping the aircraft safely in the air.

It has a degree of low observability that is about as good as it gets for a fighter aircraft that doesn't have internal weapons bays and needs to hang sensors, weapons and fuel tanks on it's fuselage and wings.

It has good range and more than enough acceleration and turning performance to be in the very top bracket of modern air to air fighters.

The aircraft also tends to perform well when loaded up with stores, which is one reason why it performs it's airshow routines with weapons. Many aircraft look very good at airshows, yet for reasons best known to their manufacturers, choose to display their aircraft with a "clean" airframe. What this means is that you're NOT seeing what the aircraft can do in a combat configuration. (The addition of weapons, sensors and fuel tanks increases drag and imposes maneuver performance limits on aircraft).

The Super Hornet does it's displays loaded up for a reason and that is that it is an impressively maneuverable fighter aircraft whether it is "clean" or actually loaded like a combat aircraft.

See for yourself:

BOEING F18F US NAVY SUPER HORNET DEMONSTRATION - FARNBOROUGH AIRSHOW (airshowvision) - YouTube
 

NeoIsolationist

New Member
The US Navy is very satisfied with the capabilities of the F/A-18 E/F/G.

It's not as maneuverable as the SU-33 series, EF2000, or for example the Gripen. However, the current state of the art for high off-boresight within visual range missiles is such that even super-maneuverable aircraft cannot fully leverage their performance in combat against aircraft equipped with such missiles.

As you know Super Hornet is primarily air-to-ground strike aircraft with air-to-air capabilities as a secondary role. The state of the art of missile technology being what it is, it can go head-to-head with more maneuverable fighters within visual range. And it is superior to its counterparts in beyond visual range combat, due primarily to the AESA radar and current version of AIM-120.

Just my take. Adding the E-18G into the mix is a force multiplier.
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
The latest OT&E report on The Super Hornet says that it's radar does not make much of a difference to the SH's missions vs the legacy MSA.

• While SCSs H6E and 23X demonstrate acceptable
suitability, the AESA radar’s reliability continues to
suffer from software instability. The radar’s failure to
meet reliability requirements and poor built-in test (BIT)
performance remain as shortfalls from previous test and
evaluation periods.

Assessment
• The APG-79 AESA radar demonstrated marginal
improvements since the previous FOT&E period and provides
improved performance relative to the legacy APG-73
radar. However, operational testing does not demonstrate a
statistically significant difference in mission accomplishment
between F/A-18E/F aircraft equipped with AESA and those
equipped with the legacy radar.

• Full development of AESA electronic warfare capability
remains deferred to later software builds.
• While SCSs H6E and 23X demonstrate acceptable suitability,
the AESA radar’s reliability continues to suffer from software
instability despite software upgrades. The radar’s failure
to meet reliability requirements and poor BIT performance
remain as shortfalls from previous test and evaluation periods.
• Overall, the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet weapon system
is operationally effective and suitable for most threat
environments. However, the platform is not operationally
effective for use in certain threat environments, the details of
which are addressed in DOT&E’s classified report.

Recommendations
• Status of Previous Recommendations.
- The Navy made minimal progress addressing FY11
F/A-18E/F recommendations.
Recommendations to
continue to improve APG-79 AESA reliability and BIT
functionality, to conduct an operationally representative
end-to-end missile shot to demonstrate APG-79 radar and
current SCS ability to support multi-AIM-120 engagement,
and to develop and characterize the APG-79 AESA’s full
electronic warfare capability remain valid.
- The Navy satisfactorily addressed three of seven
FY11 EA-18G recommendations.
Recommendations
to improve aircraft maintainability and BIT software
maturity, to improve ALQ-218 and ALQ-99 maintenance
documentation and diagnostic tools, and to assess the
need for a more capable threat range at Whidbey Island,
Washington, remain valid.

http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2012/pdf/navy/2012fa18ef.pdf

Remind me again how many years post-IOC the SH is?
 

flyman2009

New Member
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It's not as maneuverable as the SU-33 series, EF2000, or for example the Gripen.
I can say SH agility is the same as the Sukhois. If it weren't maneuverable, then why is it so good at WVR? You have a Aim-9x and aim-120s then raise up 47,000 lbs and you get super maneuverability on the Rhino. It's clearly the most maneuverable fighter without TVC. It's a limit pusher and bam, you have a good WVR machine. Also why does if have good nose point ability in WVR? Well it's stretched longer to have good nose point authority. Clearly super hornet is a maneuverable machine in WVR and has same maneuverability as the Flanker series. Gripen and Typhoon are high speed planes that go fast WVR. So in WVR they would have a hard time in close in combat with the Rhino. But it's got low T/W Ratio, which means that it's lacking speed and acceleration and kinetic performance. The Rhino is a superior close in combat and BVR fighter. The Rhino is a maneuverable machine by those aircraft.
 

NeoIsolationist

New Member
I'm pretty sure the SH airframe is limited to 7.5G maneuvers, whereas the Sukhoi can do 9 G. additionally, higher thrust-to-weight ratios favor the sukhoi. Let me make clear I'd rather fly the SH b/c I think it's a better all-rounder, but I would not say the SH is more maneuverable than Gripen/Eurofighter/Flanker.

I haven't seen the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the Sukhoi can sustain a higher-G turn than the Sh due to thrust-to-weight ratio.

It's just that state-of-the-art HOBS WVR missile technology (aim-9x is just one) is such that it makes super-maneuverability almost irrelevant.

Lastly, as far as sustained turn, and the difference between 7.5 and 9 G turns, take a look at the chart on this url. It's an article about the F-35, but the information is relevant.

//elementsofpower.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/the-f-35-and-infamous-sustained-g-spec

please add http: to the above partial link and paste into a web browser. I am unable to post the full link due to my limited number of posts.
 
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flyman2009

New Member
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I'm pretty sure the SH airframe is limited to 7.5G maneuvers, whereas the Sukhoi can do 9 G. additionally, higher thrust-to-weight ratios favor the sukhoi. Let me make clear I'd rather fly the SH b/c I think it's a better all-rounder, but I would not say the SH is more maneuverable than Gripen/Eurofighter/Flanker.

I haven't seen the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the Sukhoi can sustain a higher-G turn than the Sh due to thrust-to-weight ratio.

It's just that state-of-the-art HOBS WVR missile technology (aim-9x is just one) is such that it makes super-maneuverability almost irrelevant.

Lastly, as far as sustained turn, and the difference between 7.5 and 9 G turns, take a look at the chart on this url. It's an article about the F-35, but the information is relevant.

//elementsofpower.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/the-f-35-and-infamous-sustained-g-spec

please add http: to the above partial link and paste into a web browser. I am unable to post the full link due to my limited number of posts.
G's are nothing! It's to turn very tight and in that arena the SH does fine. The Flanker pilot must suffer from 10+ G's and that's nothing from which is maneuverable. It's called agility. The SH has same maneuverability as the Sukhoi and same common agility. While Eurofighter and Gripen pilots suffer to get slow to get the Rhino. None of the Eurocanards or Sukhoi have better nose point authority than the Rhino. The Rhino is pretty maneuverable armmed in a close range fight. :) The Rhino is pretty much in the great maneuverability category with the Eurocanards and Sukhois. The Rhino can get you up to 8+ G's if you try to pull its limits. ;) :D
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I'm pretty sure the SH airframe is limited to 7.5G maneuvers, whereas the Sukhoi can do 9 G. additionally, higher thrust-to-weight ratios favor the sukhoi. Let me make clear I'd rather fly the SH b/c I think it's a better all-rounder, but I would not say the SH is more maneuverable than Gripen/Eurofighter/Flanker.

I haven't seen the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the Sukhoi can sustain a higher-G turn than the Sh due to thrust-to-weight ratio.

It's just that state-of-the-art HOBS WVR missile technology (aim-9x is just one) is such that it makes super-maneuverability almost irrelevant.

Lastly, as far as sustained turn, and the difference between 7.5 and 9 G turns, take a look at the chart on this url. It's an article about the F-35, but the information is relevant.

//elementsofpower.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/the-f-35-and-infamous-sustained-g-spec

please add http: to the above partial link and paste into a web browser. I am unable to post the full link due to my limited number of posts.
The 7.5G and 9G numbers are misleading. For starters the Super Hornet G limit, is only a software limit anyway and the fact is, neither aircraft can sustain them when carrying external stores. Instantaneously perhaps, neither can sustain them.

You should also not confuse "clean airframe" statistics with the actual utility of a combat aircraft, in a combat configuration, which I think was Staff Sgt Mac's actual point with the link you posted.

A clean airframe Sukhoi is going to be in significant trouble against an AMRAAM and AIM-9X armed Super Hornet, no matter how great ithe Sukhoi's sustained turn rate may be, so why would you bother comparing the two?

The reason invariably is, that a reasonable guesstimation (noting of course that the precise details of these things are classified) of the operating envelope for the Sukhoi with a combat representative weapons load is NEVER revealed for some reason. The inevitable result of this, is that most people then take whatever stats they can find and assume these translate directly across and ignore the very real, real world effects external stores have on and aircraft's physical performance.

Manufacturers for marketing purposes, usually reveal the statistics of a product taken under ideal circumstances. When Sukhoi mentions that the SU-30 can reach Mach 2.3, they are probably right. It no doubt can, if given enough time, room and fuel, low enough drag and engines that are in good enough shape to do so.

What they don't tell you, is that the aircraft hit Mach 2.3 for about 5 seconds just to reach the speed for testing purposes and that if any condition was different in the test set up (ie: it was carrying external fuel tanks or weapons) it would never have got anywhere NEAR that speed. So it is with all the other statistics. Range? Measured under ideal conditions in a test scenario designed for it. Maneuver performance, again measured under ideal test conditions, not real world conditions and so on.

Boeing and Lockheed Martin are the same. The "problem" (from an internet layman point of view) for them is that they also usually release (or their customers do, ie: NATOPS flight manuals etc) the operating envelopes, or something near them, in combat configuration. So when one sees "low" figures released (like the 4.6G sustained turn spec for F-35) if you choose not to consider that spec in it's actual context (or you can't because you don't understand that context) then the specs seem to be not particularly great.

But no matter how someone chooses to use such information, what cannot be escaped from is a simple reality that carrying precision munitions "into the wind" (ie: on an external pylon) imposes drag, vibration and maneuver performance limits on an aircraft. Whatever "super-maneuverability" a fighter may have when clean, does not translate to the maneuver performance of the same fighter carrying a large external weapons (and fuel and sensors and EW pods etc) load.

At best any modern fighter is slightly improved in certain parts of their operating envelope when compared to a Super Hornet or a JSF for that matter (which in turn have advantages over their opponents in their own envelope), but the overwhelmingly dominant statistic in air to air combat has been and will always be situational awareness and the ability to make decisions faster than your opponent.

The ability to turn a bit tighter has never been as important as the ability to get the "first shot" away on your enemy. In the past, the ability to turn tighter often provided the means to position your aircraft to do that. However we are well past the days of only having fixed forward firing guns as our sole air to air weapon.

With weapons like AIM-9X as seen in the video below, the ability to turn a little bit tighter is no longer relevant. As this video shows quite clearly, the missile can turn tighter and chase faster than any aircraft in existance, so unless your maneuver advantage helps you launch your missile quicker, then all it's really good for is impressing people at airshows.

AIM-9X testing and capabilities - YouTube
 

VerySneaky

New Member
G's are nothing! It's to turn very tight and in that arena the SH does fine. The Flanker pilot must suffer from 10+ G's and that's nothing from which is maneuverable. It's called agility. The SH has same maneuverability as the Sukhoi and same common agility. While Eurofighter and Gripen pilots suffer to get slow to get the Rhino. None of the Eurocanards or Sukhoi have better nose point authority than the Rhino. The Rhino is pretty maneuverable armmed in a close range fight. :) The Rhino is pretty much in the great maneuverability category with the Eurocanards and Sukhois. The Rhino can get you up to 8+ G's if you try to pull its limits. ;) :D
Flyman I would recommend heeding the mods before you take a holiday mate, this discussion is bordering very close to X v Y, if it hasn't already crossed that line. Do what Bonza has said and read the Air Power 101 article; it might educate you a little as to why X v Y platform discussion is irrelevant and not permitted on these forums.
 

colay

New Member
...At best any modern fighter is slightly improved in certain parts of their operating envelope when compared to a Super Hornet or a JSF for that matter (which in turn have advantages over their opponents in their own envelope), but the overwhelmingly dominant statistic in air to air combat has been and will always be situational awareness and the ability to make decisions faster than your opponent.
To reinforce the aforementioned point, USMC Lt.Col. Berke, a TOP GUN alum with F-16, F-18, F-22 and F-35 experience has this to say. While fighter jocks may be perceived as macho jocks who prefer to turn and burn, no one knows better than they which side their bread is buttered.


The Fifth Generation Experience Updated: “The F-35 is a Situational Awareness Machine” | SLDInfo

Question: How would explain the difference between the F-35 and the other planes you have flown as well?

Berke: I’ve been asked to explain my experience a lot of times, and I’ve summarized it in a way that I think resonates with a lot of folks. If you took a room full of fighter pilots, and asked them to whiteboard the list of capabilities they would like, what would be the result?

The list would include speed, turning performance, stealth, maneuverability, what have you. But if you could only pick one, if you were limited to picking one characteristic, I would guarantee every fighter pilot in the room would pick is situational awareness. A pilot armed with situational awareness, even if he didn’t have all the other capabilities that he wanted, is absolutely the most survivable and lethal pilot out there.


And the thing about the F35 that it has in spades, well beyond any other aircraft is situational awareness.

And when you start talking about the other enablers; an unbelievable engine, a truly expeditionary platform, excellent maneuverability, the stealth, the variety of sensors and ordnance we’re going to be able to carry, it only gets better.

And that’s the F35 in a nutshell; it is a situational awareness machine.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thread closed.

@flyman2009, any other attempt to start a thread of the same nature or failure to observe Forum Rules, will lead to an immediate ban. Continued failure to read the information provide by other members, or heed advice given by other members (and the Mod Team) will not be viewed kindly, again.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
G's are nothing! It's to turn very tight and in that arena the SH does fine. The Flanker pilot must suffer from 10+ G's and that's nothing from which is maneuverable. It's called agility. The SH has same maneuverability as the Sukhoi and same common agility. While Eurofighter and Gripen pilots suffer to get slow to get the Rhino. None of the Eurocanards or Sukhoi have better nose point authority than the Rhino. The Rhino is pretty maneuverable armmed in a close range fight. :) The Rhino is pretty much in the great maneuverability category with the Eurocanards and Sukhois. The Rhino can get you up to 8+ G's if you try to pull its limits. ;) :D
See, there was no point to this thread, really. Because you have already made up your mind about the Super Hornet, and you don't want information, you want people to agree with you, so you can continue these childish rants about your favourite fighter aircraft.

Not on these forums mate. As OPSSG has said, shape up in a hurry or get kicked out the door.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Rhino can get you up to 8+ G's if you try to pull its limits. ;) :D
Apart from what all the others have been gently trying to tell you....

I wonder why the pilot would be willfully ignoring stress frame alerts - and I wonder where you pulled this nugget of info from.....

context is everything
 
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