Royal New Zealand Air Force

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Getting rid of this capability to gain an extra A400 (or even worse just to penny pinch) does have its advantages but I also see deficiencies, all depends how NZDF is tasked in the future and what outputs need to be covered off.
I've bolded that part of your quote above Reg, for I feel that is important.

The 2010 Defence White Paper was written 2009/10 ... before the US-NZ relationship formally "warmed up". Since the "warming" there have been formal statements and declarations made (2011 & 2012) about greater NZ participation in US exercises (and these have already occured both in NZ and with NZ participating in exercises on US and European soil). We also have the US pivot to Asia-Pacific. We also have NZ reorganising its defence force to be amphibious, in line with Australia's more ambitious amphibious development plans. We also now have USMC forces based in Darwin and a build-up on Guam.

What I'm getting at is that NZDF air (and sea) mobility needs will surely be greater. Much greater than what has been the norm over the last 10-20-odd years etc.

Whatever the NZDF's air transport review assesses I do hope our pollies will actually put greater resourcing into the eventual C-130 and 757 replacements.

At this point in time, I can see greater need for the 757's to transport personnel, cargo, medevacs etc to Oz, Asia and the US. Presumably they were flat out bringing back personnel and equipment from A'Stan. There will be more of these multi-nation commitments!
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
I've bolded that part of your quote above Reg, for I feel that is important.

The 2010 Defence White Paper was written 2009/10 ... before the US-NZ relationship formally "warmed up". Since the "warming" there have been formal statements and declarations made (2011 & 2012) about greater NZ participation in US exercises (and these have already occured both in NZ and with NZ participating in exercises on US and European soil). We also have the US pivot to Asia-Pacific. We also have NZ reorganising its defence force to be amphibious, in line with Australia's more ambitious amphibious development plans. We also now have USMC forces based in Darwin and a build-up on Guam.
You've hit the nail on the head there, guys. We don't know exactly what the government wants the airforce to do in future, so its impossible to pick the most appropriate mix of aircraft. Fun to speculate though!

Turning our eyes to something we know is going ahead in the near future, does anyone have any thoughts on the replacement pilot training capability?

Someone here suggested that Beechcraft has a lock on the deal with the Texan, plus the KingAir for MEPT. Is that still the consensus? What other contenders are there? For one thing, the Texan seems both expensive and a bit of a beast for a beginner pilot to start doing circuits. Compare the Texan specs to the CT4 and it's hard to avoid the thought 'overkill'.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
You've hit the nail on the head there, guys. We don't know exactly what the government wants the airforce to do in future, so its impossible to pick the most appropriate mix of aircraft. Fun to speculate though!

Turning our eyes to something we know is going ahead in the near future, does anyone have any thoughts on the replacement pilot training capability?

Someone here suggested that Beechcraft has a lock on the deal with the Texan, plus the KingAir for MEPT. Is that still the consensus? What other contenders are there? For one thing, the Texan seems both expensive and a bit of a beast for a beginner pilot to start doing circuits. Compare the Texan specs to the CT4 and it's hard to avoid the thought 'overkill'.
Well they'd know that some of the NZDF are training in California, at the moment which is approx 9000 miles of airlift. Presumably these are smaller initial deployments but they will increase in size over time (as other Army elements get their opportunity to train). More, larger airlift would be handy over time (in terms of the Airlift review etc).

For NZDF the upgraded C130's are flying (with the resulting sad news about the impending Safe Air contractor redundancies last week) which means 40 Sqn is near back to full operational capability, along with the more multi-role 757's tasking away, these are busy times (and also hopefully a trouble-free period in terms of bad media about breakdowns etc)!

But Army has become "heavier" (in a good way) with its new and upcoming protective vehicles and associated support systems and we're working with more nations than ever, which also means extra coalition support role opportunities etc. Coupled with Govt (previous and current) expectations that NZ Army play a leading role on the international stage (at the expense of higher-end capabilities), this really is an opportunity for NZDF to request additional heavy lift to fulfill govt objectives.

At the other end of the spectrum there is the medium-lift requirements (the plugging of the "Andover" gap) and as well as domestic and short-hop regional Pacific needs. One thing I took from the ASPI documents that Ngati posted on the NZDF thread recently was the Australian expectation that NZ look after the South Pacific (as an example I took that to mean without the ADF having to have to sort out at the very least the majority of the logistics etc), the NZDF here has an opportunity to fulfil not only the usual whole-of-govt needs as well as military, it needs to ensure sufficient capacity to support wider operations well and reliably.

In terms of lists they are worth discussing because of other implications in the defence relationship. Eg Some NZ CN295's would fit in well with French support arrangements and training (with French forces in New Caledonia or vice versa), or some C27's would fit better with integrating with Australian and US user support groups etc.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Article on Stuff today about Russian SSBNs operating near NZ again. Russian submarines heading to NZ waters | Stuff.co.nz The article mentions previous Soviet sub incidents near NZ,plus the claim that the French sub Rubis was operating in the Waitemata Harbour in support of the rainbow Warrior bombing and the German U boat and Japanese sub ops around and near NZ in WWII. According to RNZN, 99% of NZ trade is by sea and SSBNs hide but they aren't the only shark in the water. So this hopefully will encourage more serious ASW application of our maritime patrol aircraft.
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Article on Stuff today about Russian SSBNs operating near NZ again. Russian submarines heading to NZ waters | Stuff.co.nz The article mentions previous Soviet sub incidents near NZ,plus the claim that the French sub Rubis was operating in the Waitemata Harbour in support of the rainbow Warrior bombing and the German U boat and Japanese sub ops around and near NZ in WWII. According to RNZN, 99% of NZ trade is by sea and SSBNs hide but they aren't the only shark in the water. So this hopefully will encourage more serious ASW application of our maritime patrol aircraft.
There was some concern during the Rainbow Warrior regarding thr French sub and carrier group that was in the Indian Ocean and the possibility of a rescue attempt. These concerns contributed heavily to the French Agents caught been placed in to Military Custody at the then services corrective establishment. If nothing else the warrior incident highted the need for an ASW capability necessary for the protection of NZ sovereighty, even in a low level threat environment..

With regards to a training aircraft the Swiss use the PC7 for initial flight training. Those going to fast jets go to the PC21. The Texan is used for basic flight training for a number of countries. Agree its a step up but its a reflection I think of where air forces are going with the general reduction in air craft numbers.
 
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RegR

Well-Known Member
You've hit the nail on the head there, guys. We don't know exactly what the government wants the airforce to do in future, so its impossible to pick the most appropriate mix of aircraft. Fun to speculate though!

Turning our eyes to something we know is going ahead in the near future, does anyone have any thoughts on the replacement pilot training capability?

Someone here suggested that Beechcraft has a lock on the deal with the Texan, plus the KingAir for MEPT. Is that still the consensus? What other contenders are there? For one thing, the Texan seems both expensive and a bit of a beast for a beginner pilot to start doing circuits. Compare the Texan specs to the CT4 and it's hard to avoid the thought 'overkill'.
I'm not sure if its possible and seems simple enough but could the instructor have some control over the engine and be able to de-rate the engine therefore limiting available power for basic training and apply full power when moving into the advanced phase, kinda like having 2 models of aircraft in the single frame.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Article on Stuff today about Russian SSBNs operating near NZ again. Russian submarines heading to NZ waters | Stuff.co.nz
Some other interesting facts and discussions ... what whoppers, bigger than our Frigates!

Is that nearly the final nail in the coffin of Labour's worldview that NZ is in a benign strategic environment (with SSBN's about to again transit the Tasman Sea and Pacific east of NZ)? Next time Phil Goff criticises NZG plans to upgrade the underwater warfare systems of the P-3's we can all beat him over the head with this MSM report!

With P-3 and ANZAC Frigate undersea warfare upgrades being planned, could the OPV's be enhanced with hull sonar and other such detection systems? All to feedback realtime info to wider systems etc. Would seem logical seeing the OPV's venture in the deep Southern Ocean etc. Time to reactivate the Hauraki Sosus system? (There was a media article once that said it could listen in to anything transiting the Pacific and over to the continental US) :)
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Some other interesting facts and discussions ... what whoppers, bigger than our Frigates!

Is that nearly the final nail in the coffin of Labour's worldview that NZ is in a benign strategic environment (with SSBN's about to again transit the Tasman Sea and Pacific east of NZ)? Next time Phil Goff criticises NZG plans to upgrade the underwater warfare systems of the P-3's we can all beat him over the head with this MSM report!

With P-3 and ANZAC Frigate undersea warfare upgrades being planned, could the OPV's be enhanced with hull sonar and other such detection systems? All to feedback realtime info to wider systems etc. Would seem logical seeing the OPV's venture in the deep Southern Ocean etc. Time to reactivate the Hauraki Sosus system? (There was a media article once that said it could listen in to anything transiting the Pacific and over to the continental US) :)
Don't know about the Hauraki SOSUS system - wouldn't know if any of it was left. If there isn't maybe should rebuild reactivate it. Also maybe build another in the deep south so can listen down to the ice & across to South Africa. But it's all money and Clark & Burton apparently did a pretty good destruction of capability, institutional and corporate knowledge like that, so this govt probably wouldn't front up the money to stand such a capability up again.
 

merldave

New Member
Partisanship

Don't know about the Hauraki SOSUS system - wouldn't know if any of it was left. If there isn't maybe should rebuild reactivate it. Also maybe build another in the deep south so can listen down to the ice & across to South Africa. But it's all money and Clark & Burton apparently did a pretty good destruction of capability, institutional and corporate knowledge like that, so this govt probably wouldn't front up the money to stand such a capability up again.
I've read the comments on this site for, literally, years. In order to have credibility, it seems that constant reference has to be made to Helen Clarks' decision to impose major cutbacks on the NZDF - particularly the Skyhawks/Macchis. Here's a suggestion. The next time most of you (and it IS most of you) roll out an aside about 'Comrade Helen' or whatever, have a think about the reality confronting you right now with John Key and the Nationals doing sweet bugger-all for the NZDF. It's completely disingenuous to believe that Labour = bad and Nationals = good as far as the defence of New Zealand is concerned. It brings an interesting discussion down to the level of 14-year old snitchy schoolgirls (and there's plenty of websites for that.) So next time you want to have a little 'wah' over decisions made 13 years ago.....don't.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yes, it seems that as far as defence in NZ go,s , it dosnt matter which party is in power, they are reluctant to spend on defence, to many do gooders to fund.
Although, the SAS, Armour, rotary wing and sea lift capability seem to have advanced under the nationals, wonder what state the NZ defence force would be if labour was in?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I've read the comments on this site for, literally, years. In order to have credibility, it seems that constant reference has to be made to Helen Clarks' decision to impose major cutbacks on the NZDF - particularly the Skyhawks/Macchis. Here's a suggestion. The next time most of you (and it IS most of you) roll out an aside about 'Comrade Helen' or whatever, have a think about the reality confronting you right now with John Key and the Nationals doing sweet bugger-all for the NZDF. It's completely disingenuous to believe that Labour = bad and Nationals = good as far as the defence of New Zealand is concerned. It brings an interesting discussion down to the level of 14-year old snitchy schoolgirls (and there's plenty of websites for that.) So next time you want to have a little 'wah' over decisions made 13 years ago.....don't.
Ok if you have read comments on here for years then you will be familiar with the rules of the forum. If not I suggest you read them before one of the mods takes exception and you get introduced to the banned list. One rule is that politics are not discussed. Another rule is that attacks on other forum members are not allowed. Remarks that I have made re Clark, Burton et al., can be backed up with reference to the appropriate defence / military doctrines. You will also note that I have been equally scathing of the current NZG.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
To add to NM, some of us have been critical about the Bolger/Shipley administration (the post cold war peace dividend cuts and the lack of focus on defence sustainability which was only started to get taken seriously about 2/3 way thru then-National's 9 year term). As for the current administration they've made some bad calls although at least they've been recognised and hauled back a bit in some places (thinking Civilianisation and some of the VfM recomendations not going ahead eg 757 scrapping).

Despite that the current admin gets kudos for supporting Defence's drive to be more inter-operable and networkable (and survivable) with other forces - these are more post DWP hence aren't really articulated very well.

Labour though, are still living in the pre-2000 ("Defence Beyond 2000") worldview - that deserves criticism in this day and age (when we read of Russian SSBN ambitions, talk of greater Fijian- Chinese defence cooperation and potential basing, exploitation of natural resources in the Pacific and Antarctic, Tonga-Fiji territorial flare-ups and growing tensions in the South China Sea which would have a major impact on NZ's economy and well-being etc. Let alone the Middle-East & Gulf, North Korea etc)!
 
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recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Don't know about the Hauraki SOSUS system - wouldn't know if any of it was left. If there isn't maybe should rebuild reactivate it. Also maybe build another in the deep south so can listen down to the ice & across to South Africa. But it's all money and Clark & Burton apparently did a pretty good destruction of capability, institutional and corporate knowledge like that, so this govt probably wouldn't front up the money to stand such a capability up again.
Well would you believe the NZ Herald had a full feature on the setup some 10-11 years ago and on its closure under Burton's watch (article not online, you'd have to search a newspaper archive) which simply talked about its Cold War functions.

Anyway I'd imagine, seeing it ties into the US, that funding would come largely from them anyway!
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
The fact we are finally fitting out the 757s with any form of self protection...
I haven't seen anything publicly suggesting the B757's are getting a SP suite - is this actually the case? If anything the P3K2 should be getting it first - it's been referred to in the old LTDP but not since - never any mention of the B757 getting one though!?!

Can anyone clarify further?
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Some other interesting facts and discussions ... what whoppers, bigger than our Frigates!

Is that nearly the final nail in the coffin of Labour's worldview that NZ is in a benign strategic environment (with SSBN's about to again transit the Tasman Sea and Pacific east of NZ)? Next time Phil Goff criticises NZG plans to upgrade the underwater warfare systems of the P-3's we can all beat him over the head with this MSM report!

With P-3 and ANZAC Frigate undersea warfare upgrades being planned, could the OPV's be enhanced with hull sonar and other such detection systems? All to feedback realtime info to wider systems etc. Would seem logical seeing the OPV's venture in the deep Southern Ocean etc. Time to reactivate the Hauraki Sosus system? (There was a media article once that said it could listen in to anything transiting the Pacific and over to the continental US) :)
Yes good news (in a bizarre way!) for those of us arguing that NZDF P3 & FFH ASW capability needs to be re-generated. I'd have hoped such an article would get the public & media talking but that's probably too much to hope for given the largely apathetic interest in defence by most in NZ.:dunce

At least this is something no future NZ Govt can shy away from. I suspect also the USA will start applying gentle 'back room' pressure to make sure allies & 'friends' direct effort & resources into maintaining a viable ASW capability.:ar15
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
I'd have hoped such an article would get the public & media talking but that's probably too much to hope for given the largely apathetic interest in defence by most in NZ.:dunce
Well they will start talking in a couple of years time when one heads down this way!

Is the 757 SP mentioned somewhere in the DWP support docs? Unless it is a post-DWP/Afghanistan experience initiative. Yes read the P-3's get their SP upgrades (and weapon system upgrades) a bit later after the current ASuW sensor upgrades are complete - presumably that's actually after (or about) the time of the next project on underwater ISR upgrades which is still at project definition stage.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Well they will start talking in a couple of years time when one heads down this way!

Is the 757 SP mentioned somewhere in the DWP support docs? Unless it is a post-DWP/Afghanistan experience initiative. Yes read the P-3's get their SP upgrades (and weapon system upgrades) a bit later after the current ASuW sensor upgrades are complete - presumably that's actually after (or about) the time of the next project on underwater ISR upgrades which is still at project definition stage.
Re: B757 SP suite - I've never seen it mentioned anywhere - LTDP, DWP etc etc, hence I'd like to know where this stems from. Yes could be a post-Afghanistan 'lessons learnt' but the B757 never did Afghanistan directly AFAIK - was always a B757 to Abu Dhabi then a C-130 from there. Unless they realised a B757 with a SP suite might negate the need to tie up 2 airframes for one job.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Re: B757 SP suite - I've never seen it mentioned anywhere - LTDP, DWP etc etc, hence I'd like to know where this stems from. Yes could be a post-Afghanistan 'lessons learnt' but the B757 never did Afghanistan directly AFAIK - was always a B757 to Abu Dhabi then a C-130 from there. Unless they realised a B757 with a SP suite might negate the need to tie up 2 airframes for one job.
I am sure it was mentioned here way back when that the 757s could not go into the Stan because not having a SP suite, they didn't meet the ISAF requirements. So that was why it was B757 up to the Sandpit and then C130 to the Stan.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I've read the comments on this site for, literally, years. In order to have credibility, it seems that constant reference has to be made to Helen Clarks' decision to impose major cutbacks on the NZDF - particularly the Skyhawks/Macchis. Here's a suggestion. The next time most of you (and it IS most of you) roll out an aside about 'Comrade Helen' or whatever, have a think about the reality confronting you right now with John Key and the Nationals doing sweet bugger-all for the NZDF. It's completely disingenuous to believe that Labour = bad and Nationals = good as far as the defence of New Zealand is concerned. It brings an interesting discussion down to the level of 14-year old snitchy schoolgirls (and there's plenty of websites for that.) So next time you want to have a little 'wah' over decisions made 13 years ago.....don't.
Something which you seem to have missed is the long term impact on defence matters a number of decisions and activities which Clark was involved in.

It is my understanding that Clark was either a member of or affiliated with a number of the peace and nuclear protest groups back in the mid-1980's. Quite apart from leading to the USS Belknap incident and then the effective collapse of the ANZUS alliance (these have been discussed in detail in various Kiwi defence threads on DT already) look at the impact such groups had on the RNZN frigate replacement programme which became the ANZAC-class FFH. Such groups were able to colour the national perception to such a degree neither the Labour or National parties when in gov't were able to exercise the options for two additional FFH's. This meant that for a number of years, the RNZN has had a shortage of hulls available for combat deployments if needed, or even for general patrolling which is always needed. This shortage in ability to patrol was one of the reasons behind the Project Protector, since even Labour and the Greens ultimately recognized and admitted that two ocean-going hulls was no where near sufficient to patrol an EEZ the size of NZ's.

Tying in with this has been the reduction in funding for Vote Defence, with current spending hovering around 0.7% of GDP in real terms. This has of course occurred or been sustained under both Labour and National gov't but if one looks to reports which came out under Clark that, "New Zealand is in a benign security environment," one can see that the average Kiwi has been (IMO mis-)led to believe that NZ is safe and that nothing can or does threaten the way of life for the average Kiwi.

Under Clark directly was of course the retirement without replacement of the A-4K Skyhawks and the fast jet trainers the MB-339's. This retirement occurred after the terror attacks in the US in 2001 using hijacked commercial airliners. As a result of the retirement, the NZDF lost all fast air capabilities, and this loss of capability has been felt by the NZDF. While the A-4K Skyhawks were hardly the 'ideal' air superiority aircraft, they could conduct some air-to-air operations, but also perform CAS, ground attack and maritime strike. In recent years, their loss has been felt because the NZDF no longer had assets available to conduct joint training utilizing fast jet air support. The RAAF had to send in a pair for F/A-18 Hornets to given NZ ground troops practice calling in and working with CAS prior to deployment. Now that the capability is gone, it can of course be regenerated, but the cost to do so would be more than it would have cost to retain the capability, and it would take years to get it back.

In 2003 the decision was made to conduct a SLEP for the C-130H's to get another 10 - 15 years service out of them, since that would be less expensive than replacing them with new aircraft. At the time of this decision, the newest C-130H in RNZAF service was ~34 years old. As it has been turning out, upgrading aircraft that old is nearly expensive as it would have been to purchase entirely new, up to date current aircraft.

Also in 2003 was the decision to purchase the two B757-200's as replacements for the retiring B727's which were brought into service back in 1981. As has already been gone into recently, NZ paid nearly as much for decade old, 2nd hand B757's as brand new B757-200's direct from Boeing would have cost before Boeing closed the production line. Also the choice seems to have been made around or after Boeing decided to close the B757 line. In effect, NZ paid a premium for a pair of soon to be orphan aircraft. Then, because of availability issues stemming from the choice to extend and not replace the C-130H's, the RNZAF had an airlift shortage. IIRC at one point, out of the five C-130's only one was available for a needed mission and when it went to take off, an equipment failure kept it on the ground. This then led to a B757 modification programme which was about as pricey as the purchase of the B757's themselves to add a cargo door and the option to load pallets in place of seating in the passenger deck. This programme also kept them out of service for years, including during the unrest in Thailand back in 2010. IIRC as a result of the aircraft undergoing modifications (both C-130H and B757-200) and maintenance reqs, training and other operations, the RNZAF ended up having no airlift available to evacuate Kiwis from Thailand.

In 2003 - 2004 105 examples of the NZLAV entered service with Army as replacements for the Vietnam era M113 tracked APC's. The 30 year old APC's had reliability problems during their service in the Balkans in the 90's as part of a UN peace keeping force. The decision was made to go with wheeled vehicles instead of another tracked APC design because wheeled vehicles are more efficient to operate on roadways than tracks. The loss of some offroad mobility was not considered important because it was felt that the NZLAV's would get deployed as part of Kiwi peacekeeping contingents and therefore the risk of entering active combat zones or requiring that sort of mobility was minimal. The selection of the NZLAV was also part of what seemed to be a re-roling or reorientation of the NZDF away from the mission of defending NZ and NZ interests, into being a constabulary and international peacekeeping force. Looking back at a post by me from November 2009, at one point 20% of Army was deployed away from NZ on international deployments. IIRC at the time there were about a dozen different areas NZ had personnel deployed to. All because it was felt by the gov't of the time that agreed to NZ committing to the various international deployments that it was important for NZ to be a good international citizen and having so many deployments raised the stature of NZ in the international community. It is perhaps worthwhile noting that Clark has been a UN administrator for the last four years.

Now if people wish, I could also then discuss in some detail some of the implications of the Project Protector, though the proper places to really do so would either be in the RNZN thread or the general NZDF thread. I could also go into the completely false notion which prior gov'ts seem to have instilled in the average Kiwi that anything further than the NZ EEZ is not a potential threat to NZ interests

At this point I have covered some of the decisions made involving all NZDF services. What has not been really discussed so far is time. Many of these capabilities which have been retained, or the platforms which have been selected will likely serve the NZDF for a generation. Barring a major service issue or capability shortfall, the kit the NZDF gets under the watch of one particular gov't will likely be expected to serve through a number of successor gov'ts. Given how much can change over the course of thirty years, making decisions based on idealogy and how one wishes the future to turn out instead of how it could turn out does seem rather dangerous for a gov't to do. I hope I have made my point.

-Cheers
 
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