US Navy News and updates

swerve

Super Moderator
Ah yes - page 19 -
"Build in Australia eight ocean patrol ships/light patrol frigates, to enter service
from the early-to-mid-1990s as the last three destroyer escorts (DEs) and first five
Fremantle class patrol boats pay off. Plan on a decision in 1987-88 for design
development. (Estimated cost of $2000 million is balanced by reductions in earlier
proposals for new surface combatants and new patrol boats. About 1000 personnel
for these new ships and their helicopters to become available from the five
Fremantles and three DEs.)
- Consider cancelling the modernisation of, and paying off, the third guided missile
destroyer (DDG) HMAS Hobart. (Save $32 million from capital equipment
program; reduce annual operating costs by $8 million; reallocate the crew of 330.)
Government may wish, however, to retain nine rather than eight capable destroyers
in the fleet."

But if you'd kept eight or nine capable destroyers (replacing the old ones one for one), eight lightly armed ocean patrol ships might have been OK to supplement them. The ANZACs have had to be upgraded to make up for the shortfall in bigger ships, which might not have arisen if the ANZACs had been ordered as smaller (2000 ton) Floreal type ships. Having the ANZACs allowed the politicians to cut numbers of bigger ships. One can't really blame Dibb for that.

We should really be discussing this in the RAN thread, but it arose as a digression here.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Ah yes - page 19 -
"Build in Australia eight ocean patrol ships/light patrol frigates, to enter service
from the early-to-mid-1990s as the last three destroyer escorts (DEs) and first five
Fremantle class patrol boats pay off. Plan on a decision in 1987-88 for design
development. (Estimated cost of $2000 million is balanced by reductions in earlier
proposals for new surface combatants and new patrol boats. About 1000 personnel
for these new ships and their helicopters to become available from the five
Fremantles and three DEs.)
- Consider cancelling the modernisation of, and paying off, the third guided missile
destroyer (DDG) HMAS Hobart. (Save $32 million from capital equipment
program; reduce annual operating costs by $8 million; reallocate the crew of 330.)
Government may wish, however, to retain nine rather than eight capable destroyers
in the fleet."

But if you'd kept eight or nine capable destroyers (replacing the old ones one for one), eight lightly armed ocean patrol ships might have been OK to supplement them. The ANZACs have had to be upgraded to make up for the shortfall in bigger ships, which might not have arisen if the ANZACs had been ordered as smaller (2000 ton) Floreal type ships. Having the ANZACs allowed the politicians to cut numbers of bigger ships. One can't really blame Dibb for that.

We should really be discussing this in the RAN thread, but it arose as a digression here.
It would tie in with the current OCV/PB discussion in the RAN thread, would you mind flicking it over there?

Ironically had the ANZACs been retained as patrol frigates (especially if built to a smaller design) and the DDGs and FFGs had been replaced with something more suitable, then the LCS would have a place as an ANZAC replacement.

Basically you hit the nail on the head, the RAN likely would be more capable today if they had never lobbied to evolve the ANZACs into real warships. This sort of parallels the situation the USN is in today. Should the LCS be upgraded to or replaced with a frigate, then this more expensive option will cut into the numbers of
far more capable required DDG and CG replacements. A big mistake as unless I am greatly mistaken the current DDG and CG in service designs are far more capable than any frigate.
 

colay

New Member
A nice piece that helps provide some historical perspective on the whole LCS conversation.

Birthing Ships is Never Easy; Give LCS A Break « Breaking Defense

Birthing Ships is Never Easy: Give LCS a Break

The chorus of criticism facing the first ships of the Navy’s new Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) class calls for a little historical context to be brought to this debate. Almost all new ship classes experienced considerable “birthing pains in their early days...

All the first-of-class surface warships in recent Navy history have experienced significant problems to one degree or another, all of which generated considerable criticism at the time of their construction and initial deployment...

The level of criticism being directed at LCS will most likely continue until additional ships of both the Freedom and Independence classes are delivered and deployed. Key to all this will be the fact that officers and sailors will learn in minute detail how to operate and maintain them––and unlock the operational flexibility and adaptability that Navy officials maintain are inherent in their respective designs.

Recent Navy history vividly demonstrates that the first ship of every class faced obstacles. We should maintain perspective: every new class of warship debuts to a chorus of critics.
 

Belesari

New Member
The LCS is kind of the freak of the Navy designs. Looking at what it started as to what it became. The constant growth in missions. The demand that it all happen at once on ONE design (which I think if they had just mandated 2 different ship designs from the start both LCS classes would be in much better shape and be farther along).

"Build a little, test a little, learn a lot."

I have heard from the guys who built them that they would get something done and the Navy guys would step in demanding it get changed. Gets done again and they change the who thing......etc. No wonder the First 2 have had such problems.


A nice piece that helps provide some historical perspective on the whole LCS conversation.

Birthing Ships is Never Easy; Give LCS A Break « Breaking Defense

Birthing Ships is Never Easy: Give LCS a Break

The chorus of criticism facing the first ships of the Navy’s new Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) class calls for a little historical context to be brought to this debate. Almost all new ship classes experienced considerable “birthing pains in their early days...

All the first-of-class surface warships in recent Navy history have experienced significant problems to one degree or another, all of which generated considerable criticism at the time of their construction and initial deployment...

The level of criticism being directed at LCS will most likely continue until additional ships of both the Freedom and Independence classes are delivered and deployed. Key to all this will be the fact that officers and sailors will learn in minute detail how to operate and maintain them––and unlock the operational flexibility and adaptability that Navy officials maintain are inherent in their respective designs.

Recent Navy history vividly demonstrates that the first ship of every class faced obstacles. We should maintain perspective: every new class of warship debuts to a chorus of critics.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #886
The USS Minnesota, the last block 2 Virginia has been delivered to the USN.

New Virginia-class submarine delivered to Navy | Navy Times | navytimes.com

Huntington Ingalls Industries says the fast-attack submarine Minnesota is being delivered on budget and nearly 11 months ahead of schedule.
Nice to hear some good news in the USN shipbuilding program.

The next sub will bring lots of changes and cost savings due to having less sub-safe penetrations.
 

Belesari

New Member
Wow 11 months is amazing by any standard. The Virginia's have had there teething issues but in all have been a real victory for the Navy.

Still hearing back and forth on whether to use a extended Virginia basically or a new ship for the SSGN/SSBN replacement.


The USS Minnesota, the last block 2 Virginia has been delivered to the USN.

New Virginia-class submarine delivered to Navy | Navy Times | navytimes.com



Nice to hear some good news in the USN shipbuilding program.

The next sub will bring lots of changes and cost savings due to having less sub-safe penetrations.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #888
Overall the Virginia's have been a great program. The subs could of been cheaper if the USN went with two yards but they (and Congress) felt having two nuclear capable yards was critical. The integration of the two yards and companies has been impressive.

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/technical_reports/2011/RAND_TR852.pdf

A report from 2011 about various shared ship building programs that has a section on the Virginia (as well as several other ships).
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm rather interested in the Virginia payload module, boats built from block V onwards to get 4 VLS which each can hold 7 TLAM. Not bad at all, but supposedly this cost increase will be balanced by a reduction of 4 boats.

Apparently the block III boats (North Dakota - Delaware) will already will have 2 bigger VLS, so would the block V boats keep these 2 PLUS the 4 for the VPM?

In terms of tubes, then

  • Block I - 12 VLS + 4 tubes
  • Block II - 12 VLS + 4 tubes
  • Block III - 12 VLS + 2 'SSGN' VLS + 4 tubes
  • Block IV - 12 VLS + 2 'SSGN' VLS + 4 tubes
  • Block V - 12 VLS + 4 'SSGN' VLS + 4 tubes
    ...

Does the USN SSN fleet use sub-TLAM or does it purely stick to VL TLAM, leaving the internal weapons storage free for Mk48 + sub-Harpoon?

I'm not particularly up on US SSN details, as you can tell.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Overall the Virginia's have been a great program. The subs could of been cheaper if the USN went with two yards but they (and Congress) felt having two nuclear capable yards was critical. The integration of the two yards and companies has been impressive.

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/technical_reports/2011/RAND_TR852.pdf

A report from 2011 about various shared ship building programs that has a section on the Virginia (as well as several other ships).
I attended a briefing on building the Virginias in Hawai'i a few years back, needless to say the build philosphy and intent was pretty damn impressive. It left an indleible impression on me on how you can build subs properly - even with greenfield ideas.
 

kev 99

Member
I'm rather interested in the Virginia payload module, boats built from block V onwards to get 4 VLS which each can hold 7 TLAM. Not bad at all, but supposedly this cost increase will be balanced by a reduction of 4 boats.

Apparently the block III boats (North Dakota - Delaware) will already will have 2 bigger VLS, so would the block V boats keep these 2 PLUS the 4 for the VPM?

In terms of tubes, then

  • Block I - 12 VLS + 4 tubes
  • Block II - 12 VLS + 4 tubes
  • Block III - 12 VLS + 2 'SSGN' VLS + 4 tubes
  • Block IV - 12 VLS + 2 'SSGN' VLS + 4 tubes
  • Block V - 12 VLS + 4 'SSGN' VLS + 4 tubes
    ...

Does the USN SSN fleet use sub-TLAM or does it purely stick to VL TLAM, leaving the internal weapons storage free for Mk48 + sub-Harpoon?

I'm not particularly up on US SSN details, as you can tell.
Isn't the SSGN module VLS instead of the regular ones?
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yeah that's what I mean, the "+4 tubes" was just the regular torp tubes on every sub. I thought i'd include them because I wasn't quite sure if they were/weren't used for sub-TLAM
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm rather interested in the Virginia payload module, boats built from block V onwards to get 4 VLS which each can hold 7 TLAM. Not bad at all, but supposedly this cost increase will be balanced by a reduction of 4 boats.

Apparently the block III boats (North Dakota - Delaware) will already will have 2 bigger VLS, so would the block V boats keep these 2 PLUS the 4 for the VPM?

In terms of tubes, then

  • Block I - 12 VLS + 4 tubes
  • Block II - 12 VLS + 4 tubes
  • Block III - 12 VLS + 2 'SSGN' VLS + 4 tubes
  • Block IV - 12 VLS + 2 'SSGN' VLS + 4 tubes
  • Block V - 12 VLS + 4 'SSGN' VLS + 4 tubes
    ...

Does the USN SSN fleet use sub-TLAM or does it purely stick to VL TLAM, leaving the internal weapons storage free for Mk48 + sub-Harpoon?

I'm not particularly up on US SSN details, as you can tell.
I think that the increase in VLS tubes relates to a need for a replacement for the Ohio SSGN's when they're end of life. There's no way anyone is going to commission a direct replacement for them as they were accidents of fate, a fallout from the START talks.

Slotting more VLS into the Virginia's will help pad out the numbers of TLAM on the prowl at any one time.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yeah that's exactly what they're for, they're contracted for subs built from Block V onwards, AFAIK block IV let alone block V haven't been ordered yet. Some long lead items for the first handful of block IV batch have been ordered I think.

The first SSN with some SSGN capacity - USS North Dakota - should be commissioned sometime next year, it knocked 2 months off the time required to complete the pressure hull from 50 down to 48 months in February.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hmm, well this DID threw a spanner in the works, this article seems to suggest that rather than having the original 12 VLS plus 2 SSGN VLS that the 2 SSGN tubes will replace the seperate 12 VLS. Plus a different bow to house a new sonar array.

Virginia Block III: The Revised Bow

The most obvious change is the switch from 12 vertical launch tubes, to 12 missiles in 2 tubes that use technology from the Ohio Class special forces/ strike SSGN program. The Virginia’s hull has a smaller cross-section than the converted ballistic missile SSGNs, so the “6-shooters” will be shorter and a bit wider. Nevertheless, they will share a great deal of common technology, allowing innovations on either platform to be incorporated into the other submarine class during major maintenance milestones. Net savings are about $8 million to program baseline costs.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Whoops, well what can I say, for whatever reason I didn't get it at the time, and considering my half-assed response (which as of right now I don't really understand where I was going with it) wasn't corrected I went with it. Hence why I found this article surprising.

Anyway, the article was pretty helpful in terms of information.
 

colay

New Member
What's the probability of earlier Virginia blocks being retrofitted with the VPM? The US Navy has had a lot of success stretching out existing boats with hull plugs.
 

kev 99

Member
Rob in answer to your earlier question about Sub TLam and VLS usage: I read an article about a year or two ago regarding a Virginia class sub test fireing Tomahawks, it fired both VLS Block 4 and block 3 from its torpedo tubes, so I guess they still do have a stock of sub launched TLAM.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Can anyone shed some light on the GRF build, from other forum on the net it appears that they are running into massive problems in regards to emals/radar? Testing in small scale seems all right but on the large scale it seems to be drawing more power than anticipated and problems with moisture and current isolation and the cost blowout is having a detrimental effect not only on this project but has flow on to other project because of the cost overruns.

It seems like it’s the case of putting the cart before the horse, but with the ship construction nearly finished should they put the hull aside and start build JFK using the tried and tested Nimitz design till all problems are solved with the new concept and sea trials taken place to verify systems concept or is it a case of sticking with it and putting JFK on hold till problems are solved.

Navy Should Delay Next Carrier Amid Troubles, GAO Audit Says

Issues with new aircraft carrier could delay contracts with Huntington Ingalls | Business | The Sun Herald
 
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