The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Also Ikara was probably better than ASROC at the time.
Ikara had one significant drawback in that it made such a damn racket when the launcher was being elevated that every sub for twenty miles probably went to flank and cleared datum :)

You were never going to get a surprise shot in with one, that's for sure.
 

1805

New Member
Apologies - I've just had a double check and it's listed as 30 meters although I note one of the FI kills was much lower, at 10-15 meters - I guess if it *hit* you then the warhead would be a bit superfluous...

Wiser heads than I can advise but I get the impression Sea Dart was never intended to face sea skimmers and certainly in the Falklands, it served to deny high altitude to the attackers. There is of course one kill against a Silkworm missile so I'm guessing the old girl could do the business when it counted.
I am not sure but I think I read a post before, that the fuse thing might have had something to do with premature detonation fears during firing. I can't find anything on this though.

Sea Dart was not designed for sea skimmers, but It is a mistake to think it could not deal with them, when matched to a radar that could see them. The problem with 965 it couldn't. The trouble with first impressions is you don't get a second go at them! Sea Darts reputation was ruined by 2 batch 1 Type 42, 965 equipped ships sinking. No one remembers the performance of the batch 2s or the GW1 Silkworm kill.
 

1805

New Member
Ikara had one significant drawback in that it made such a damn racket when the launcher was being elevated that every sub for twenty miles probably went to flank and cleared datum :)

You were never going to get a surprise shot in with one, that's for sure.
I didn't know this, but unlike ASROC it was guided so could change course once launched. Faster reaction time and all weather both advantages over the MATCH concept that I think the RN was still operating with early Lynx's.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I am a big fan of the Iroquois Class, one of the best, if not the best of the big heavy twin helicopter frigates of the 70/80s, moving the flight deck as central as possible was a key element, the beam/length ratio was also far more sensible c8.5 v a fairly extreme 9.7 on the proposed Type 43.
I don’t know why you making out the fineness ratio of the Type 43 was bad. Plenty of very seaworthy ships with such fine lines. It would have had to be longer if it didn’t have the amidships flight deck, as long as a Sprucan. BTW the speed requirement for the T43 was at least 30 knots with 34 preferred. So unlike a Type 12 ASW frigate it needed that fineness to go as fast as the RN wanted.

I was not being specific about VL Sea Dart on Mk 1, but it should have been the focus of a design that would have served alongside the Type 23.
I think you really don’t understand missile guidance dynamics and how they affect launching. There is a big difference between Sea Wolf and Sea Dart in that the Sea Wolf doesn’t have a seeker head and the Sea Dart does. In the late 1970s lock on after launch was a very risky proposition.

My comment on "lucky escape" was not solely down to the helicopter arrangement.
Who cares what it was about. The lack of understanding you’ve demonstrated about this design makes your opinion effectively worthless.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
As I understand it Sea Darts anti ship capability was pretty basic, just relying on the kinetic energy. I think this could have been developed at modest cost to include an alternative fuse option, great if they could have added a terminal sea skimming phase.
Initial Sea Darts lacked the fusing for engaging a surface target or a low level aircraft there just wasn’t the space/tech for this kind of thing when it was built. This was improved after the Falklands with the transistor refit which added a new more capable fuse and an autopilot. The idea of a sea skimming phase is really out there. You would have to add an altimeter to the missile which would cut into warhead or fuel.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Ikara had one significant drawback in that it made such a damn racket when the launcher was being elevated that every sub for twenty miles probably went to flank and cleared datum :)

You were never going to get a surprise shot in with one, that's for sure.
This was only a problem with the ridiculous RN version.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Dutch Tromp's advanced 3D systems was pretty much Broomstick and they are about the same size while carrying a heavier twin 4.7", Sparrow, Goalkeeper and Harpoon!
All because it had a much lighter missile system with Tartar in place of Sea Dart. Early Tromp designs fitted with Sea Dart did not have so many extras.

Could a Sea Dart/Broomstick combo Type 82 have been the RNs Arleigh Burke...which in the first batch also didn't have hanger either?
They were designed to do exactly the same thing: be picket ships for carrier groups so the answer is clearly yes.

Also Ikara was probably better than ASROC at the time.
Ikara was far better than ASROC. Ikara could actually sink a submarine with a single missile whereas ASROC required massive barrages or could only act as a beater capability.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Really? Seemed almost identical as far as propulsion displacement dimension and basic internal layout, Iron decks etc. to me.
Only in conception not in design. The RN initially believed they could fit Sea Dart, Broomstick, etc in a Leander sized ship. But the need for more volume was quickly identified as well as more speed and endurance to keep up with the carrier. So when the serious design of the Bristol began it was for a much bigger ship. But it kept the old frigate Type 82 moniker as this had been where the project started.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Move the hanger and flight deck aft and drop both a deck with the Sea Dart positioned between the hanger and aft funnel(s), that way the magazine can be in the space used by the old Sea Slug magazine. The aft funnel could be split port and starboard and a horizontal magazine for Ikara (thanks Abe) worked in between them to feed the Sea Dart launcher, with a pair of 909s sited above. If the ship has a CODOG, COGOG or COGAG arrangement instead of COSAG the forward funnel could be dispensed with or split port starboard as well. If COSAG is retained then a MACK could be substituted. a second Sea Dart installed in B position and the remaining Mk6 4.5" replaced with a Mk8.
I guess this would all fit but the RN really wanted Sea Dart to be in the ship as a ‘round of ammo’ which also meant stored deep in the hull below the waterline where it was safe. Having them up on the main deck like on the County’s would not have allowed this.

This difference in magazine standards is one of the big reasons Sea Dart could not be fitted as compactly to many ships as Tartar/Standard. Though it also required much larger fire control radars to support the longer target illumination range.

If you wanted to upgrade County class it would be much easier just to develop a Mk 3 Sea Slug missile with the Sea Dart fire control system. But the RN was so stressed for cash in the 1970s even such a simple project to hugely boost the capability of eight units was unavailable to them. A Mk 3 Sea Slug County using Desert Can (909) FCRs could have one aft in place of the old beam riding FCR and one forward in the B Position (in place of the second gun or Exocets).
 
Last edited:

1805

New Member
I don’t know why you making out the fineness ratio of the Type 43 was bad.

I think you really don’t understand missile guidance dynamics and how they affect launching.

Who cares what it was about. The lack of understanding you’ve demonstrated about this design makes your opinion effectively worthless.
Sorry for me your tone is all wrong, and if we carried on would soon get the threat locked, ruining it for everyone else. Lets leave it at that.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry for me your tone is all wrong, and if we carried on would soon get the threat locked, ruining it for everyone else. Lets leave it at that.
Imagine you’re talking to Star Trek’s Spock at the moment and he says:

"You have freely admitting knowing very little about the ship design in question even believing it had no aircraft hangar nor understanding the nature of the missile guidance system and how it effects the firing of said missiles. So logically one must deduce that any conclusion you make about this ship design is fundamentally flawed based on your ignorance of it. Therefore since opinions are often graded as to value I can only logically deduce that your opinion in relation to this ship design is worthless."
 

Fast Mover

New Member
Copied from defense-aerospace.com (as I cannot yet post links):

(Source: Lockheed Martin; issued June 3, 2013)



ORLANDO, Fla. --- Lockheed Martin successfully completed MK 41 Vertical Launch System (VLS) "push-through" testing of a simulated Long Range Anti-Ship Missile (LRASM).

Four consecutive tests verified that the simulated LRASM can break or "push through" the MK 41 canister's forward cover without causing damage to the composite structure, air data probe or coatings of the missile. The testing was part of a Lockheed Martin-funded shipboard integration effort to prove LRASM can successfully function as an Offensive Anti-Surface Warfare (OASuW) weapon. The push-through testing is an important risk reduction milestone critical to demonstrating LRASM's surface launch capability.

With the T26 to be fitted with a strike length VLS (an as yet to be decided type as we all know), I wonder if the continuing development of the LRASM and its integration with the MK41 will sway the RNs choice..., with a future Harpoon replacement as a consideration.

I am unsure as to the importance and urgency that will be placed on replacing Harpoon as the T26 comes in to service, land attack probably being the most important consideration for the strike length cells (just my opinion). However - Harpoon has been in service for several decades and air defence systems have obviously come a long way in the intervening time period. I wonder - if there was a shooting war tomorrow against an adversary with a relatively modern CIWS/short or medium range air defence missile system on its warships, how would the subsonic Harpoon fare? When compared to something like Brahmos, the harpoon is slow and lacks in dynamic maneuverability in the last stages of an attack - according to what I have read in the public domain anyway.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Type 26 and land attack is the mystery right now - none of us can unpick that one very easily. I'd kind of held out for Fireshadow after seeing repeated references to an option for a loitering munition, but then Fireshadow didn't get deployed in Afghanistan, over comments about concerns over performance, at least according to the NAO report.

It's a missing piece of the puzzle but I haven't seen any suggestions as to what VLS system the strike cells will be, nor yet what the actual missile or missiles might be.

In terms of Harpoon vs Brahmos, I'd prefer NSM :)


Longer term, the powerpoint weapon of choice would be Perseus, but that's not even really on the drawing board. I doubt (gut feeling) we'd buy LRASM, for political reasons - unless there's a sudden change of heart over procurement - at the moment it all seems channelled through Team Complex Weapons, and MBDA.

We'll see.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
It will be a factor, the Type 26 probably won't have quad Harpoons (we don't know for sure, but I wouldn't bet on it) and the main missile silo will have to suffice for ASuW and land attack.

IMO the Mk41 would be the way to go. We get TLAM as standard, LRASM* and then Perseus for both jobs 2030+.

I'm not sure how well Harpoon would do against the sort of defence a 'modern' nation could throw up, AFAIK ours aren't particularly up to spec (Block 1C last I heard).

* IMO the more pressing requirement would be able to conduct ASuW from the carriers if the requirement of an AShM came about
 

kev 99

Member
Longer term, the powerpoint weapon of choice would be Perseus, but that's not even really on the drawing board. I doubt (gut feeling) we'd buy LRASM, for political reasons - unless there's a sudden change of heart over procurement - at the moment it all seems channelled through Team Complex Weapons, and MBDA.
Yes, we've seen a lot missile systems going through MBDA and the Team Complex Weapons route but remember that these were all started under a long Labour Government, that could change depending on political direction from further up. Tories might just be happier to buy whatever is cheapest off the shelf, no matter where it is made.

Think we'll just have to wait and see.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
The aim of the Type 26 is for it to be as cheap as possible for the design, IMO if that means we go down the route of buying OTS from the US then have at it. In the long run buying Mk41 will set us up for a greater European missile setup in the future.

I'm all for European production, but we're on a tight budget and unless the financial climate picks up, ballooning costs on a Type 26 would make it a prime candidate unless we can pick up some exports.
 

CB90

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Type 26 and land attack is the mystery right now - none of us can unpick that one very easily. I'd kind of held out for Fireshadow after seeing repeated references to an option for a loitering munition, but then Fireshadow didn't get deployed in Afghanistan, over comments about concerns over performance, at least according to the NAO report.

It's a missing piece of the puzzle but I haven't seen any suggestions as to what VLS system the strike cells will be, nor yet what the actual missile or missiles might be.

In terms of Harpoon vs Brahmos, I'd prefer NSM :)


Longer term, the powerpoint weapon of choice would be Perseus, but that's not even really on the drawing board. I doubt (gut feeling) we'd buy LRASM, for political reasons - unless there's a sudden change of heart over procurement - at the moment it all seems channelled through Team Complex Weapons, and MBDA.

We'll see.
With the RN's TLAM history, I'd be surprised if the RN went away from TLAM, mainly for economic reasons.

Same to a lesser extent for Harpoon. I say lesser extent mainly because in a global threat environment, having either a VLS compatible ASCM for capacity or a "silver bullet" type of ASCM may be a requirement.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you couldn't do better, just saying DoD/MoD's tend to be real tightfisted when there isn't an active shooting war or looming threat, and even more so when their parent economies aren't doing so hot.
 

CB90

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It will be a factor, the Type 26 probably won't have quad Harpoons (we don't know for sure, but I wouldn't bet on it) and the main missile silo will have to suffice for ASuW and land attack.

IMO the Mk41 would be the way to go. We get TLAM as standard, LRASM* and then Perseus for both jobs 2030+.

I'm not sure how well Harpoon would do against the sort of defence a 'modern' nation could throw up, AFAIK ours aren't particularly up to spec (Block 1C last I heard).

* IMO the more pressing requirement would be able to conduct ASuW from the carriers if the requirement of an AShM came about
You know who DOES have Block II Harpoons? Canada and Australia.

Carrier based vs SAG based ASCMs is an ongoing debate in the USN as well. Really depends on your threat set. Expansion of availability of C4I networks and platforms like the Houbei have been real game changers.
 
Top