Russian Air Force News & Discussion

[Feanor]

@Feanor: You correctly understood the article. Wikipedia also doesn't mention any differences between SM1 and SM 2 standard.

How is it with the Su-27 upgrades? Does the Su-27SM2 differ from the SM 1 variant?

I don't know. I found a comment on a livejournal photo report. The guy asked the officer on the base about their Su-27SM aircraft. He got the answer that these weren't SM, but more advanced SM2 aircraft. No details followed.

Originally the SM2 was a speculated (possible proposed) upgrade that involved retrofitting most systems off the Su-35S on to the Su-27 airframe. However no real info on it ever materialized.

So, the truth is I have no idea. It might be something different.

What I also couldn't find out is when the Su-25UBM will finally enter service. Sukhoi has been working on it for several years so it should be ready soon.

I'll look it up, but entry into service is rarely decided in advance, so all you can get is an expected date. Actual entry into service depends on completion of state trials, and sometimes on experimental exploitation results. Deliveries on the other hand are to start next year. Entry into service can involve pre-production aircraft completing trials, or it can happen after multiple squadrons are in service and even performing combat (the prime example being the Su-34).

This is mostly a product of the post-Soviet disintegration of the armed forces, and the procurement organization. So yeah.

 

[Feanor]

The first Tor-M2 unit seems to have reached IOC.

The reference is to the Tor-MU, which doesn't exist. What does exist is the Tor-M1-2U. Which is a Tor-M2 without the new missiles and what has actually been delivered to South MD. I.e. the physical TELARs and command posts have been delivered, but the munitions are the ones from the Tor-M.

http://www.arms-expo.ru/049057054048124051049055051048.html

 

[Scorpion82]

My understanding is that the last batch of Su-27SM were SM3 which are merely new build airframes, supposedly with AL31FM1 engines instead of the old AL31F3. The SM2 was indeed proposed to be an upgrade that brought the stock Su-27 to a Su-35 like standard, but that upgrade never materialised. Earlier sources in turn suggest that Su-27SM2 was simply the designation of the new Su-35, like the Su-33 being known as Su-27K, the Su-34 being Su-27IB or the old Su-35 being designated Su-27M.

 

[Feanor]

My understanding is that the last batch of Su-27SM were SM3 which are merely new build airframes, supposedly with AL31FM1 engines instead of the old AL31F3. The SM2 was indeed proposed to be an upgrade that brought the stock Su-27 to a Su-35 like standard, but that upgrade never materialised. Earlier sources in turn suggest that Su-27SM2 was simply the designation of the new Su-35, like the Su-33 being known as Su-27K, the Su-34 being Su-27IB or the old Su-35 being designated Su-27M.

There are probably other differences between SM and SM3. And yes, the last 12 Su-27SM were SM3 new builds. They're currently at Krymsk, together with two Su-30M2.

While the proposed SM2 upgrade hasn't materialized it's possible that SM2 refers to old Su-27 airframes upgraded to the SM3 standard (as opposed to new builds). It could also be a different variant from both. Finally it may simply be nonsensical designation, related to the batch number.

EDIT: More trouble for the An-70 project. Ukraine just halted funding, citing misuse of funds by Antonov. It seems that Antonov used money paid for production of the components on equipment necessary for the production instead. While in principle it's only logical that they need this equipment, the fact that the MoD of Ukraine has to swallow the costs of re-equipping the production line as well as the cost of the aircraft is making this very problematic. It seems that financing from the Russian side is continuing as originally intended.

This also indicates that Russia is far less likely to place a substantial order for the type in Ukraine, and will probably prefer to relocate production to Russia as soon as possible.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/524293.html

 

[Feanor]

Updates on the Su-25SM3. It appears to have recently completed a new stage of trials, and has confirmed the capability to strike targets without visibility of them, presumably based on pre-programmed coordinates. Also new EW and ECM gear has been tested, including the Vitebsk-25 EW complex, and L-370-3S jammer. It looks like they plan on using PGMs together with Vitebsk-25 for SEAD/DEAD sorties, and probably an experiment with regards to the future SEAD/DEAD platform on the Su-25, currently under development.

Lenta.ru:

Also factory trials for the Il-476 have been completed, prematurely. It's being prepared for state trials right now. I wonder when the Il-78 contract becomes solid, with delivery dates.

Lenta.ru:

Also updates on the Russian strike UAV. Foreign engines are being considered, even as domestic UAV engines are still being developed (and presumably financed). The payload of the proposed strike UAV is 200-250 kg.

Lenta.ru:

 

[ADMk2]

Updates on the Su-25SM3. It appears to have recently completed a new stage of trials, and has confirmed the capability to strike targets without visibility of them, presumably based on pre-programmed coordinates. Also new EW and ECM gear has been tested, including the Vitebsk-25 EW complex, and L-370-3S jammer. It looks like they plan on using PGMs together with Vitebsk-25 for SEAD/DEAD sorties, and probably an experiment with regards to the future SEAD/DEAD platform on the Su-25, currently under development.

Lenta.ru:

Also factory trials for the Il-476 have been completed, prematurely. It's being prepared for state trials right now. I wonder when the Il-78 contract becomes solid, with delivery dates.

Lenta.ru:

Also updates on the Russian strike UAV. Foreign engines are being considered, even as domestic UAV engines are still being developed (and presumably financed). The payload of the proposed strike UAV is 200-250 kg.

Lenta.ru:

Any ideas on which PGM's they are considering for the SEAD/DEAD role?

It would be VERY interesting if they are planning on using glide or gravity weapons for the role, considering how often the ELP's of the world tell us how in "peril" the West is, given we don't use large numbers of supersonic guided missile systems for our strike operations...

 

[Feanor]

Any ideas on which PGM's they are considering for the SEAD/DEAD role?

It would be VERY interesting if they are planning on using glide or gravity weapons for the role, considering how often the ELP's of the world tell us how in "peril" the West is, given we don't use large numbers of supersonic guided missile systems for our strike operations...

Well they currently operate the Kh-58 and 58U for dedicated SEAD. The Kh-31 anti-shipping missile has an anti-radiation mode, so presumably it could be used, but I have to wonder how well it's flight profile is suited to operations against land targets. The older Kh-28 is phased out entirely. I'm not sure if the Kh-25 is still around. Supposedly it was usable on MiG-29, Su-25 and Su-27 aircraft, so it could be an option.

So basically nothing particularly new or exciting. That having been said, they could use SIGINT gear to locate the emitter, and try to use the new GLONASS guided Kh-38 variant to strike it. During the Georgian War it was iirc Kh-58s that were used by the Su-34 prototype against some targets in Georgia, including an airspace control radar. Supersonic weapons are expensive and rare. I doubt they would be the go-to for this role. Most likely an upgraded Kh-58 variant.

EDIT: To clarify the Kh-58 is supersonic, and theoretically the primary SEAD munition, but it's not that common. It's a variable-range stand-off missile, the higher the launch altitude, the longer the range. There is some serious question whether the Flanker series can use it, although it was integrated on the Su-30MK series, so possibly the Su-30SM in the VVS could use it. Generally Su-24, Su-34, and some Su-25 variants carry it.

If they proceed with a mass acquisition of the Kh-58 then supersonic munitions could end up being the primary SEAD weapon.

 

[Klaus]

Finally, the new AIR International has arrived, with two articles by Piotr Butowski and Aleksandr Mladenov concerning the Su-35 and the Il-76MD-90A.

In the first one development and status of the Su-35 are described. Most of it is already known. Some news are that the long-range Kh-100 air-to-air missile will not be carried by the Su-35, instead it will rely on the Kh-37 to destroy distant air targets.
This year another 12 will be built, with the planned total of 96 to be reached in 2020 only. What is of particular interest is that the author cites government plans for the future force structure, which is to include 360 new heavy fighters. As 96 of these will be Su-35s, the remaining 264 would be made up by the new T-50. I wonder whether the possible purchase of 48 MiG-35 (about which I've heard nothing for some time) would furtherly reduce that number (what would make no sense as the MiG-35 is lacking much of the other aircrafts' capabilities).

The new Il-76 on the other hand is to enter service in November 2014 already, with 39 transports and more than 60 units of other versions to be ordered. One additional transport is planned to be bought by the FSB and four by the MChS.
The huge investments into this project occur at a time when the future of the rival An-70 looks more than doubtful, with the MoD recently denying further funding for establishing a production plant in Russia.

 

[Haavarla]

What is of particular interest is that the author cites government plans for the future force structure, which is to include 360 new heavy fighters. As 96 of these will be Su-35s, the remaining 264 would be made up by the new T-50. I wonder whether the possible purchase of 48 MiG-35 (about which I've heard nothing for some time) would furtherly reduce that number (what would make no sense as the MiG-35 is lacking much of the other aircrafts' capabilities).

Now this is very cryptic News.. and i've seens such News multiple times before.

I bet this include both Mig-31BM, Su-30SM, Su-35S and Su-34, it is after all Heavy birds. And it does not state any date.. only future plans. These kind of article is often incorrect.

 

[Feanor]

Now this is very cryptic News.. and i've seens such News multiple times before.

I bet this include both Mig-31BM, Su-30SM, Su-35S and Su-34, it is after all Heavy birds. And it does not state any date.. only future plans. These kind of article is often incorrect.

Su-34 wouldn't be included. It's still called a frontal bomber by VVS terminology.

Meanwhile, Su-24 modernization continues. As of right now they just completed upgrading all Center MD Su-24s with the Gefest upgrade. I have to wonder what will happen to those birds, since the ones at Shagol will start getting replaced literally this year.

Lenta.ru:

 

[Klaus]

The MiG-31BM also wouldn't fall under the definition mentioned, as it is only an upgraded aircraft and not a new-built one.

As Putin himself some time ago mentioned that at least 200 T-50s would be bought, the number could be correct, but that still depends on how much funding will be available in the post-2020 timeframe.

 

[Haavarla]

A Mig-35 deal on the VVS horison. Looks like the Russian MoD are throwing yet another life line towards RAC MIG.

Ð*СК "МиГ" в июне подпишет контакт Ñ ÐœÐ¸Ð½Ð¾Ð±Ð¾Ñ€Ð¾Ð½Ñ‹ на поÑтавку МиГ-35 / ÐвиаПорт.ДайджеÑÑ‚


So the question remain, will this newly build Mig-35 be based on the Mig-29K airframe or something new(slightly larger wing & airframe)?

 

[Feanor]

Some updates, a new EW system has just completed factory trials on an Il-22 aircraft. The new EW suite, called Prorubschik, is designed to interfere in communication between AEW and tactical aircraft, as well as between UAVs and their controllers. It's also designed to identify emitters, and suppress them in a targeted manner. So far the VVS plans for 6 more aircraft to be equipped with this complex, but it's likely they will have to select a new platform to carry it, given the age of the aircraft in question.

According to the sources, the main difference between Prorubschik and other Russian EW system, is it's ability to attack and jam selectively, to avoid interference with friendly comm gear. This is probably a reflection on the lessons learned during the Georgian war, when Russian EW knocked out Russian comms.

Lenta.ru:
ВВС РоÑÑии получили глушилку Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð±ÐµÑпилоѽиков - ИзвеÑтиÑ

 

[Klaus]

Strange that they decided to order 37 MiG-35. That's one and a half regiment...
Why not 48 and reequip two MiG-29 units?

I've got another question, I'm looking for photos of the Su-28 trainer prototype Sukhoi built in the 1980s, but all I could find were some low-quality pictures and nothing showing the cockpit of the aircraft. Does somebody have an idea where I could look for more information?

 

[Feanor]

Strange that they decided to order 37 MiG-35. That's one and a half regiment...
Why not 48 and reequip two MiG-29 units?

I've got another question, I'm looking for photos of the Su-28 trainer prototype Sukhoi built in the 1980s, but all I could find were some low-quality pictures and nothing showing the cockpit of the aircraft. Does somebody have an idea where I could look for more information?

CAST says they plan on ordering 24.

As for the Su-28/Su-25UT, cockpit photos might simply not exist, or it might have a cockpit identical to a Su-25.

 

[alexkvaskov]

So far the VVS plans for 6 more aircraft to be equipped with this complex, but it's likely they will have to select a new platform to carry it, given the age of the aircraft in question.

They could always mount it on the upcoming A-90 EW aircraft on newly built Candid's, as well as Tu-214s. Or were the VVS so unsatisfied with the Tu-214R trials that they won't be ordering any more?

 

[Feanor]

They could always mount it on the upcoming A-90 EW aircraft on newly built Candid's, as well as Tu-214s. Or were the VVS so unsatisfied with the Tu-214R trials that they won't be ordering any more?

I have no idea what the deal is with the Tu-214 R and ON variants. Two of each were ordered, no follow-on orders have come. Then again Tu-214 deliveries haven't been completed. So it might be a matter of time.

They considered other platform for carrying Prorubschik, but they need aircraft with lower minimum speeds for higher loiter times. An An-140 based variant might be a good idea.

 

[Feanor]

Some interesting news, funding for the RSK MiG UAV project, under NIOKR Skat, just got approved. It's unclear whether Skat will be "the" strike UAV that the MoD claimed was under development, or whether it's a separate project, but it will be interesting to see what the end result is.

ÐИОКР по БПЛРбудет выполнÑÑ‚ÑŒ РСК «МиГ» — ÐžÐ Ð£Ð–ИЕ РОСС˜Ð˜, Информационное агентÑтво

 

[Klaus]

The project funded by the ministry was said to be carried out by Sukhoi and referred to as Okhotnik, so I guess it's a separate development program. Afaik Yakovlev had also released drawings of a UCAV called Proryv.

@Feanor: In the article referring to the MiG-35 it was written the "obshchee kolichestvo" planned was 37 units, that's the total number, isn't it? My Russian is not perfect, so it might be I got something wrong.

In May a new Su-30SM has been handed over to the VVS, the first of 12 planned for this year.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/519836.html

 

[Feanor]

Right but the Skat program has a NIOKR contract, and a fairly far along design. Yes, общее количество means the total amount. Do you have the actual article?