Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

the road runner

Active Member
Just a question regarding the F-18 growlers.
I am under the impression that RAAF will use its Growlers to cross train with RAN AWD, ,RAAF Awac's ect in training up the ADF to better, counter jamming techniques.
The Growlers can jam missiles as well, this capability is one that gets looked over by the average person.

My question is,dose this capability require more than 12 Growlers for the role of training/sustaining a force as such?

Also i assume the JSF dose not have a jamming capability such as the Growler?

Cheers.
 

protoplasm

Active Member
Just a question regarding the F-18 growlers.
I am under the impression that RAAF will use its Growlers to cross train with RAN AWD, ,RAAF Awac's ect in training up the ADF to better, counter jamming techniques.
The Growlers can jam missiles as well, this capability is one that gets looked over by the average person.

My question is,dose this capability require more than 12 Growlers for the role of training/sustaining a force as such?

Also i assume the JSF dose not have a jamming capability such as the Growler?

Cheers.
And in addition to the Growler purchase is the RAAF likely to consider MALD-J as a possible purchase to enhance the SEAD capabilities of the ADF? Growler plus MALD-J would give you a significant capacity to disrupt an IADS and get a strike package in.
 

King Wally

Active Member
Just a question regarding the F-18 growlers.
I am under the impression that RAAF will use its Growlers to cross train with RAN AWD, ,RAAF Awac's ect in training up the ADF to better, counter jamming techniques.
The Growlers can jam missiles as well, this capability is one that gets looked over by the average person.

My question is,dose this capability require more than 12 Growlers for the role of training/sustaining a force as such?

Also i assume the JSF dose not have a jamming capability such as the Growler?

Cheers.
I've been wondering lately just how much punch the Growler/SH mix brings to the table? Particularly if Gov pushes ahead with the extra 24 unit buy and it detracts from the RAAF's total JSF numbers. Got me wondering how potent they will be if they need to be used in a hot environment? Your post above points out to me some broader uses as well which is interesting no doubt. I have to admit you are very correct about man on the street knowledge regarding the Growler, I myself feel I should know more about their ability before commenting for example.

Regarding MALD-J Proto... they seam perfect for such a mission mix, Im just wondering about a Growlers ability to carry them given all the pilons already lost to Growler toys? I know they have two pilons remaining when fully kitted but I was under the impression they were best left for a couple self defence AA missiles? I guess nothing to say a SH fitted with MALD-J's couldn't fly in formation with a GROWLER and cover that issue.
 

the road runner

Active Member
Particularly if Gov pushes ahead with the extra 24 unit buy and it detracts from the RAAF's total JSF numbers.
I recall a number of def pros commenting a while back,that the Growler will not detract from the force of 75(+25) JSF. It seems the Growler are seen as a capability expansion for the RAAF ,just like the Awacs were. A different asset to shape the RAAF into the 21st century.

The Extra F-18F Super hornets could be used for spare parts(once JSF enters) to keep the growlers flying into the future,but i am not sure about this?

I am assuming our future force will be 75 (plus 25) JSF with Growlers ensuring a jamming capability ,while the F-18F is broken down for spare parts to keep the Growlers flying into the future.

Happy to be pushed into the right direction with this, if my thinking is off?

Cheers
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Happy to be pushed into the right direction with this, if my thinking is off?

Cheers
I'd suggest that once the Govt crosses the boundary of half the extant fleet being "x", the the sheer weight of the through life and support model will be making them a continuing feature of the ORBAT as opposed to an interim solution

The original JSF overall numbers would seem to be much much further to the right - by another 15 years.

at that point the combat mix design will be changing again
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
My reading of what the minister was saying is that Australia will operate both the SH and F-35 side by side and that future purchases of the SH would offset against F-35 purchases.

The down turn in the Australian economy my well be the final nail in the coffin as far as an all F-35 force or even a mix of F35 and Growlers is concerned. I think the Growlers and conventional SH are here to stay for the next 20 to 30 years.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The down turn in the Australian economy my well be the final nail in the coffin as far as an all F-35 force or even a mix of F35 and Growlers is concerned. I think the Growlers and conventional SH are here to stay for the next 20 to 30 years.
we're not having an all JSF fleet.

die is cast. we will be running a mixed fleet
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
What's the Lib's plan when it comes to this matter? Surely that'll be the one that counts...:whip
don't know, but some major acquisition processes can't be stopped - depends at what stage they are prior to the freeze kicking in

for an incoming govt to suspend or reverse a decision they would then be exposed to recovery action by any affected parties.

as per the black hole announcements today ($12bn), every time one of these events gets trotted out its more license for an incoming govt to strip back when they move in

you can bank on 12 subs getting dumped as that is identified as a Lab pet rock
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
don't know, but some major acquisition processes can't be stopped - depends at what stage they are prior to the freeze kicking in

for an incoming govt to suspend or reverse a decision they would then be exposed to recovery action by any affected parties.
We had a F16 lease signed and sealed with US yet an incoming govt managed to weasel and bludge a way out of it. What has never been publicly stated was the financial cost of breaking that deal. So if the pollies are stubborn enough they'll find a way to really shaft defence. Thats a kiwi perspective.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
We had a F16 lease signed and sealed with US yet an incoming govt managed to weasel and bludge a way out of it. What has never been publicly stated was the financial cost of breaking that deal. So if the pollies are stubborn enough they'll find a way to really shaft defence. Thats a kiwi perspective.
unfort subs have become a political football between both parties - so you can almost guarantee that they will take a hit

unfort both sides can't move out of the idealogical box on subs, so libs are likely to kill off a decision (and certainly the end number) because it was Rudds pet rock idea

I can see border protection getting revisited as well
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
What's the Lib's plan when it comes to this matter? Surely that'll be the one that counts...:whip
Fair enough question ... a lot of what the Labor party is pushing will be irrelevant come the next election.

For what its worth

http://www.liberal.org.au/sites/default/files/ccd/Defence Policy.pdf

I think that we might see defence take a big hit regardless of who is in power at the next election. With government budget deficit predictions out to 2018 I expect to see a lot of belt tightening.
 

King Wally

Active Member
What's the Lib's plan when it comes to this matter? Surely that'll be the one that counts...:whip
I read the following article today in the Australian which gave some insight.

Defence will get funds, Libs vow

DEFENCE and national security policy is in crisis because unfunded promises, delayed capability and chronic mismanagement have created an "irresponsible and dangerous" outlook, opposition defence spokesman David Johnston has warned.

In a speech to the Lowy Institute late yesterday, Senator Johnston promised an Abbott government would align defence policy with funding, something he said the Gillard government had failed to do. "My mantra is to under-promise and over-deliver," he said.

His comments come ahead of the expected imminent release of the government's defence white paper, which will promise substantial new spending commitments, including the likely purchase of more F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter bombers and a fourth air warfare destroyer.

"I see the Prime Minister traipsing across the country promising roads, education funding, NDIS plans, massive financial giveaways, with not a cent to our national security," Senator Johnston said.

He said not only was defence spending at its lowest since 1937, at 1.56 per cent of GDP, but all other agencies related to national security, including intelligence, had suffered total funding cuts of more than $100 million last year.

"This is just plainly irresponsible and dangerous," he said.

He said a Coalition government would not cut defence spending further but gave no commitment to increase spending beyond an aspiration to do so when budget circumstances permitted.

"Our aspiration is that as soon as we have come to terms and corrected the current fiscal situation, we will return to the aspiration of 2 per cent of GDP and 3 per cent real growth in the defence budget."

He said it would take time for a Coalition government to repair the damage done by Labor's 10 per cent funding cut last year.

The Weekend Australian revealed on Saturday that the defence white paper would be released before next month's budget and was likely to include more than $200 billion of promised new equipment including more Super Hornets and a fourth air warfare destroyer.

As revealed in a draft copy of the white paper obtained by The Australian in December, the document will re-focus policy on Australia's immediate region after a decade of war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Senator Johnston said the government was bringing forward a white paper only four years after the previous one 'to disguise the fraud and failure of the 2009 white paper".

"Virtually nothing contained within the 2009 white paper has been fulfilled or, more crucially, funded into the future," he said.

"With the benefit of hindsight, this document was nothing more or less than an elaborate confidence trick -- a media splash with absolutely no substance."

Senator Johnston gave strong support to the beleaguered Joint Strike Fighter, which has suffered schedule and cost blowouts, and criticised the government for delaying its purchase decisions in relation to the plane. "It's a vital major project and a great feather in (former defence minister) Robert Hill's cap for having this strategic foresight more than 10 years ago," he said.
Tried to highlight the couple quotes that got my attention... first up that they wont rush to increase the Defence budget but will try and get to it over several years and secondly that they seam to see the F-35 as a Lib poster child and may push more support for the project then Labor perhaps? Must be said though no sweaping announcements in this article, more broad commentary.
 

rand0m

Member
Fair enough question ... a lot of what the Labor party is pushing will be irrelevant come the next election.

For what its worth

http://www.liberal.org.au/sites/default/files/ccd/Defence Policy.pdf

I think that we might see defence take a big hit regardless of who is in power at the next election. With government budget deficit predictions out to 2018 I expect to see a lot of belt tightening.
It mentions the Global Hawks, I thought the US were reverting back to the U2 and other assets after 2015 and ditch the Global Hawks? Is the mariner version mq-4c still going ahead? Is it an option?
 

King Wally

Active Member
According to the Australian today the RAAF will receive extra funding to purchase 12 new Growlers that wont effect F-35 plans for later in the decade.

The new Growlers apparently will void earlier plans to convert some of the existing Super Hornets across to Growler.

It will leave the RAAF with 24 SH and 12 Growlers heading in toward the end of the decade when the Classic hornets will start being replaced with F-35's.

I was actually pretty happy to hear this and it sounds like a reasonable plan.
 

jack412

Active Member
King, I just heard the White Paper announcement. It looks like we will slip the 2+12 f-35 aus delivery to 2020, with the retirement of the hornets from 2020-22. We will keep the 24 SH to 2030-35 and get a dozen growlers. It sounds a fair plan
 

Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
It mentions the Global Hawks, I thought the US were reverting back to the U2 and other assets after 2015 and ditch the Global Hawks? Is the mariner version mq-4c still going ahead? Is it an option?
Only one of the blocks (Block 30 airframes?) were put on ice. MQ4C program seems to be OK.
 

King Wally

Active Member
King, I just heard the White Paper announcement. It looks like we will slip the 2+12 f-35 aus delivery to 2020, with the retirement of the hornets from 2020-22. We will keep the 24 SH to 2030-35 and get a dozen growlers. It sounds a fair plan
I never caught the part about the initial F-35's slipping back to 2020. But its not unexpected. The ETA dates seam to move back a year every time I hear it discussed. Going to be a tight change over for the classic hornets but I guess it's the way things are looking right now.

Anyone caught a estimated delivery date for the Growlers yet? Or has that not even been mentioned yet specifically? I was myself expecting maybe 2017 - 2018 if the production line was like I last heard.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
The way I see it is that the F-18F is likely to be replaced by the F-35 sooner or later. The F-35 will stay stay in production for decades.

I imagine that around the time the F-18F is due for a mid-life refit there will be renewed pressure to get an additional batch of F-35s instead. They sound like they are going to be pretty much flogged to death anyway if the new F-35s aren't going to enter service until the 2020s.

New build Growlers are a good option.
 

VerySneaky

New Member
For those interested here is a link to the white paper: http://www.defence.gov.au/WhitePaper2013/docs/WP_2013_web.pdf

This is the bulk of what was said regarding the RAAF:

Defence White Paper 2013 pp. 87-89 said:
Air Combat Capability
8.79 As a key part of Australia’s defence strategy, the Royal Australian Air Force must be able to control
Australia’s air approaches and enable and support friendly operations in the land, sea and air
environments. The delivery of Australia’s F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft and the supporting KC-30A
air-to-air refuelling aircraft will ensure the continued potency of Australia’s air combat system in
projecting decisive air power in the defence of Australia and its interests.
Defence White Paper 2013
88
8.80 Emerging advanced air combat and air defence capabilities within the region, together with the
proliferation of modern electronic warfare systems, will make the air combat tasks of controlling the
air, conducting strike and supporting land and naval forces increasingly challenging.
8.81 To meet this challenge, the Government remains committed to acquiring the fifth-generation F-35A
Joint Strike Fighter aircraft, with three operational squadrons planned to enter service beginning
around 2020 to replace the F/A-18A/B Hornet aircraft. The Joint Strike Fighter provides the stealth
technology, advanced sensors and weapons, networking and data fusion capabilities required to
maintain an air combat advantage into the foreseeable future. The Joint Strike Fighter will also provide
a highly capable land and maritime strike capability.
8.82 Australia’s air combat capability is a vital part of our national security framework. The Government will
not allow a gap in our air combat capability to occur.
8.83 As a prudent measure to assure Australia’s air combat capability through the transition period to the
Joint Strike Fighter, the Government has decided to retain the current 24 F/A-18F Super Hornets (one
operational squadron) in their current air combat and strike capability configuration.
8.84 A decision on replacing the Super Hornets with additional Joint Strike Fighters will be made closer to
the withdrawal of the Super Hornets, which is not expected until around 2030.
8.85 The Government has also decided to acquire 12 new-build EA-18G Growler electronic attack aircraft
instead of converting 12 of Australia’s existing F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft into the Growler
configuration. 12 Growler aircraft will enhance significantly the ADF’s electronic warfare capability
and, together with the Joint Strike Fighter and the Super Hornet, will form a formidable air combat force
capable of controlling both the air and electronic environments.
Maritime Intelligence Surveillance, Reconnaissance and Response
8.86 Defence will continue to provide effective intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance capability
across Australia’s vast maritime area of interest. This will require ongoing sustainment of the frequently
used but ageing AP-3C Orion fleet, along with the timely acquisition of a replacement capability.
8.87 The Government intends to replace the AP-3C fleet with P-8A Poseidon aircraft, complemented by
unmanned aircraft capable of undertaking broad area maritime surveillance and fleet overwatch. Timings
will facilitate a carefully managed transition between AP-3C and P-8A fleets. The goal is to provide
long-range, long-endurance maritime surveillance and response and an effective anti-submarine and
anti-surface warfare capability. Defence will continue to investigate options for a mixed manned and
unmanned aircraft fleet to inform Government consideration later in the decade.
Air Combat Enablers
8.88 The Joint Strike Fighter, Super Hornet and Growler aircraft will require a base of supporting systems
including command and control, intelligence, targeting and strategically located air bases to realise
their full capability. The reach and effectiveness of Australia’s combat aircraft will also be enhanced
Defence White Paper 2013
89
by the air to-air refuelling and airborne early warning and control capabilities accepted into service in
recent years.
8.89 The KC-30A multi-role tanker/transport aircraft provides the ability for the air combat fleet to extend strike
range or combat air patrol endurance. The KC-30A’s tanking and cargo lift capacity facilitates the rapid
deployment of a fighter squadron from the national support base to a forward operating base to project
decisive air power where needed. It is also a key enabler for air lift, surveillance and reconnaissance.
8.90 The E-7 ‘Wedgetail’ airborne early warning and control aircraft has revolutionised Australia’s control
and coordination of the air combat fleet. Its highly capable radar and systems provide a situational
awareness capability edge. Networked tactical data links will enable the common operational picture
and high-quality sensor information to be available to other ADF and allied fighting units.
Air Mobility
8.91 Air mobility is critical to lift, deploy and sustain forces in Australia’s north and offshore. The ADF
operates a balanced air mobility capability with C-17 Globemaster III aircraft providing long-range,
heavy air lift and the C-130J providing medium-to-long range tactical air lift and air drop. The KC-30A
also provides a supplemental long-range, high-speed and large-payload air mobility capability.
8.92 The ADF has taken delivery of two more C-17 Globemaster III strategic lift aircraft to achieve a fleet
of six in total. The utility of the C-17 in supporting operations has been demonstrated repeatedly in
recent years, particularly in the Middle East Area of Operations and also closer to home in providing
humanitarian assistance and disaster relief. The additional C-17 air lift has negated the need for the
previously planned additional two C 130J transport aircraft.
8.93 The light tactical role previously undertaken by Australia’s DHC-4 Caribou aircraft (retired in 2009) will
in future be provided by ten C-27J Battlefield Airlifters. Recent natural disasters have demonstrated
the flexibility and rapid response that air lift is able to provide. The acquisition of ten C-27J aircraft and
seven CH-47F Chinook helicopters will significantly boost the ADF’s tactical and heavy air lift capacity,
including the ability to reach difficult access areas for which larger aircraft may be unsuitable.
It does make mention in other parts of the report that we will take delivery "by the end of this decade", but I'm not sure that necessarily means 2020.. the dates seem to be phrased quite vaguely, and I'm assuming if we are to have 3 squadrons reach IOC by 2018-2023 we will need to take delivery of them sooner than that. I would imagine it's vague to account for any possible delays and slippages in deadlines.

Overall, I was quite happy to see that the extra SH purchase isn't going ahead.
 
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