Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[RobWilliams]

No, go back and edit your previous post mate, don't post any more copies. Use the edit function on the comment which had the note added by another mod

You're missing a [ to make the quote actually work

[QUOTE=t68;261954]Of course I can't tell you against whom, it's called hedging your bets. No its not capability at any expense I did say in the original post it was extremely expencive and no one would do it and my personal opinion. etc etc

Add that [ in the part I picked out in your original post

 

[weegee]

See Choules has returned to sea duties today. The Aus DOD flicked out a media release earlier. Defence News and Media » HMAS Choules returns to sea

Great news I am glad the raaf chipped in with some transport for the transformers etc, I hope that during the repairs personnel were able to really get to know the ship and her nooks and crannies so to speak. I don't know why but I really like her I suppose it is because of her size she is defiantly impressive when you see her in the flesh.

 

[hauritz]

When the LHDs come online the navy will have an impressive line up of big amphibs. I can't help but wonder about flexibility however.

When the last of the LCH goes next year we will have no replacements for them until the early 2020s.

 

[the road runner]

I am all for an expansion of the Navy.I think Australia has a psyche of ANZAC's and soldiers serving the country drilled into us.It would be good to see the RAN in the same light.

I am curious as to what others think.One thing the Navy gives the ADF is that it can be on station for weeks/months once it transits to an area.I am not saying we need a massive increase ,but i would assume and increase of 10%-20% in manpower(would this be possible?) would be a very good thing for the defence of Australia going into the 21st century.

Cheers.

 

[t68]

I am all for an expansion of the Navy.I think Australia has a psyche of ANZAC's and soldiers serving the country drilled into us.It would be good to see the RAN in the same light.

I am curious as to what others think.One thing the Navy gives the ADF is that it can be on station for weeks/months once it transits to an area.I am not saying we need a massive increase ,but i would assume and increase of 10%-20% in manpower(would this be possible?) would be a very good thing for the defence of Australia going into the 21st century.

Cheers.

I think the idea that Abraham came up with a some weeks ago to bolster the Navy strength in personel, is to create a Australian version of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary/Military Sealift Command.

Not sure how different it is for these crews compared to those involved in the martime trade and the conditions expected for the crew case in point HMAS Choules how different is the crew faculty compared to a commissioned naval vessel?

 

[StoresBasher]

The RAN does not need a bolster in personnel.
Numbers are pretty high in all categories, recruitment is good and so is retention.
Our Navy isn't big enough to warrant a RFA/USNS type run ship(s).

 

[the road runner]

The RAN does not need a bolster in personnel.
Numbers are pretty high in all categories, recruitment is good and so is retention

I was always under the impression our navy was being stretched with our patrol boat force and sub crews ,pirate duty and gulf ops.

Cheers.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The idea of civil manned Navy ships was in the context of having a single national patrol boat service, ie the Navy taking over the Customs national marine unit. To man these boats under current personnel levels the AOR/AO could be crewed by a RFA/MSC style arrangement. In effect moving civil manned patrol boat crews sideways into auxiliaries and the Navy auxiliary crews into their place on the patrol boats. Obviously there is no need to do it unless you have a need for more sailors that Navy recruitment can't match.

 

[justsomeaussie]

The idea of civil manned Navy ships was in the context of having a single national patrol boat service, ie the Navy taking over the Customs national marine unit. To man these boats under current personnel levels the AOR/AO could be crewed by a RFA/MSC style arrangement. In effect moving civil manned patrol boat crews sideways into auxiliaries and the Navy auxiliary crews into their place on the patrol boats. Obviously there is no need to do it unless you have a need for more sailors that Navy recruitment can't match.

Totally agree on this one. Very similar roles with very similar vessel needs. The immigration issue is only going to get worse long term no matter what government is in (but worth nothing that the Rudd/Gillard government policies are noted as being easier all the way back to countries of origin).

Customs are the most likely organisation to pick up the complete role (or a Coastguard organisation) since they also have most of the immigration, evidence collection and constabularies experience.

For me this works where we break out the "combat" vessels out of SEA1180, say 6 corvette type vessels and keep them Navy. Utilise them for the combat at MCM roles but the other 14 allotted to SEA1180 are slotted into Customs type patrol and surveillance. Combine that with the existing 8 Cape class and they have quite a decent surveillance force.

Unforutnely I think there a too many egos involved for this to actually happen.

 

[MickB]

As I understand it these patrol craft are considered important training platforms by the navy. Is this not how many younger officers get their first command experance.

 

[alexsa]

As I understand it these patrol craft are considered important training platforms by the navy. Is this not how many younger officers get their first command experance.

And there is the issue that Customs appear to have manning and funding issues. The Cape class are over 500 gross tonnage and certified (commercially) for unrestricted (includes international) operations. This changes the dynamic for crew qualifications and may result in crewing issues.


Finally the RAN are still the biggest resource in the for of seagoing manpower and platforms ....... And will be even where the Cape class replace the Bays. It may be difficult to man all vessels using civilian crews simply because the off shore sector is sucking up qualified seafarers.


For these reason, not ego, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

 

[Volkodav]

And there is the issue that Customs appear to have manning and funding issues. The Cape class are over 500 gross tonnage and certified (commercially) for unrestricted (includes international) operations. This changes the dynamic for crew qualifications and may result in crewing issues.


Finally the RAN are still the biggest resource in the for of seagoing manpower and platforms ....... And will be even where the Cape class replace the Bays. It may be difficult to man all vessels using civilian crews simply because the off shore sector is sucking up qualified seafarers.


For these reason, not ego, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Have customs started hiring their own cadets to grow their own deck and engineering officers? If not where are they going to come from?

 

[ASSAIL]

And there is the issue that Customs appear to have manning and funding issues. The Cape class are over 500 gross tonnage and certified (commercially) for unrestricted (includes international) operations. This changes the dynamic for crew qualifications and may result in crewing issues.


Finally the RAN are still the biggest resource in the for of seagoing manpower and platforms ....... And will be even where the Cape class replace the Bays. It may be difficult to man all vessels using civilian crews simply because the off shore sector is sucking up qualified seafarers.


For these reason, not ego, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Spot on Alexsa,
The Australian Maritime Union priced itself out of a viable merchant fleet 20+ years ago.
The present govts push to recreate a viable industry as championed by Minister Albanese will not make first base apart from Oil and Gas and Govt ships such as Ocean Shield.
Most of the current crop of seamen manning the Offshore ships are ex fisherman (an industry in decline thanks to the Green Movement/Marine Parks, or ex Navy.
There is NO viable pool of merchant seaman so march on 457 Visas from the sub continent.
There aren't even enough ex merchant mariners to man the various Marine Safety authorities/AMSA etc thus 457's again. How many Marine Pilots have we heard with an aussie accent? Ans very few.
I still work daily at 66yrs old because there are no available Master Class 4's to man my ships.
So, in summary, if navy want support ships or patrol ships at affordable running costs they must be uniformed.
Cheers

 

[alexsa]

Spot on Alexsa,
The Australian Maritime Union priced itself out of a viable merchant fleet 20+ years ago.
The present govts push to recreate a viable industry as championed by Minister Albanese will not make first base apart from Oil and Gas and Govt ships such as Ocean Shield.
Most of the current crop of seamen manning the Offshore ships are ex fisherman (an industry in decline thanks to the Green Movement/Marine Parks, or ex Navy.
There is NO viable pool of merchant seaman so march on 457 Visas from the sub continent.
There aren't even enough ex merchant mariners to man the various Marine Safety authorities/AMSA etc thus 457's again. How many Marine Pilots have we heard with an aussie accent? Ans very few.
I still work daily at 66yrs old because there are no available Master Class 4's to man my ships.
So, in summary, if navy want support ships or patrol ships at affordable running costs they must be uniformed.
Cheers

AMSA do pretty well but have to pay to attract talent and the pool is dwindling world wide. The International register was intended to solve this issue in the longer term but it must be competitive to do so. Will have to see how that pans out.


The number of 'cadets' in Ausralia is very low and the pool is ageing.

 

[alexsa]

Have customs started hiring their own cadets to grow their own deck and engineering officers? If not where are they going to come from?

I understand they will look to up skill the current work force ....... But that takes time

 

[Anixtu]

case in point HMAS Choules how different is the crew faculty compared to a commissioned naval vessel?

As Largs Bay she had single berth cabins with en-suite shower rooms (one between two cabins) for junior rates. Double bunks and own en-suite for POs and junior officers. Suites (separate day and sleeping cabins) for senior officers and the most senior four or five had baths. Most cabins, certainly leading rates and upwards, had their own fridges. Whether such decadence has been retained in RAN service I do not know.

On most warships only senior officers have a cabin to themselves.

 

[StoresBasher]

As Largs Bay she had single berth cabins with en-suite shower rooms (one between two cabins) for junior rates. Double bunks and own en-suite for POs and junior officers. Suites (separate day and sleeping cabins) for senior officers and the most senior four or five had baths. Most cabins, certainly leading rates and upwards, had their own fridges. Whether such decadence has been retained in RAN service I do not know.

On most warships only senior officers have a cabin to themselves.

CO has a suite, obviously,as do all the HODS;
XO, MLO, EO, OC SAD, Chaplain and spare VIP Cabin.
Officers ,mostly have their own cabin's, though when I was on, a couple were sharing a two berth.
CPO/PO, single cabin with bathroom.
LS, mostly single cabin with bathroom, though some were sharing a two berth.
AB/SMN, shared a four berth cabin with bathroom.

Sea riders would be mostly accommodated in the troops messes, that said, they are better than most warships messes and what Manoora's were.

 

[Anixtu]

AB/SMN, shared a four berth cabin with bathroom.

I expect the layout and fit of the cabins hasn't changed since her RFA days but doubling the size of permanent crew has pushed JRs into the former RN augmentee and EMF officer and NCO cabins.

 

[hauritz]

How much duplication is there between the missions carried out by customs and those performed by the navy?

In fact how much duplication is there with other federal departments such as Fisheries and civil bodies such as Coast Watch?

I am actually not opposed to the concept of a single coast guard.

I imagine defence and customs wouldn't be thrilled at the idea of competing for funding with a dedicated coast guard, but there would be benefits down the track. For starters it would alleviate the manning problems currently being experienced by the navy.

 

[alexsa]

How much duplication is there between the missions carried out by customs and those performed by the navy?

In fact how much duplication is there with other federal departments such as Fisheries and civil bodies such as Coast Watch?

I am actually not opposed to the concept of a single coast guard.

I imagine defence and customs wouldn't be thrilled at the idea of competing for funding with a dedicated coast guard, but there would be benefits down the track. For starters it would alleviate the manning problems currently being experienced by the navy.

Boarder Protection Command is already a joint customs and military organisation. The ACPB have a duel role while the Cape Class are optimised for the irregular arrivals and fisheries function. The coast watch aircraft are a contracted asset. As such the uniform services provide the bulk of assets (and more so when.... or if ..... the Global Hawk is purchased) with support from MFU, 14 ACPB and RAAF AC-3C. Customs man their 6 Bay Class which are to be replaced by the Cape Class. The Ocean Protector, Ashmore Guardian and Triton are all chartered tonnage operated by commercial companies.


The other complication, as noted above, is the seperate regulatory regime the assets operate under. The chartered tonnage is under full commercial certfication which is difficult for enforcement operations, The Bays have domestic commerical certification and need some dispensations. The Capes are under unrestricted commercial certification ....... and this incudes qualifications. These are there from a different resource pool than that used by the RAN.


I doubt the RAN would like to play by those rules and we do not have the USNS type option here either.


Simply put ...... it is quite complex and manning issue may be less of a bother if it were all uniform. Manning will be a bother if you attempt to civilain man 14 ACPB, 8 CCPB and the Ocean Sheild when it transfers to Customs.