Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[ngatimozart]

Thoughts on the Brazil Navy Amazonas Class for SEA1180?

Amazonas-class corvette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think you'd be far better off with the Navantia BAM Buques de Acción Marítima (BAM) Class Patrol Vessels - Naval Technology. Carries a heavier gun up for'ard that can fire the extended range ammo, can carry a helo up to NH90 size and hangar it, it's more versatile in that can mount VLS if needed, towed sonar, MCM, Hydrographic, other littoral warfare requirements and I think better value for money. The RAN has a relationship with Navantia that spans across two ship classes so they know the builder. Pommy ships aren't the flavour of the month in the RAN at the moment either.

 

[justsomeaussie]

I think you'd be far better off with the Navantia BAM Buques de Acción Marítima (BAM) Class Patrol Vessels - Naval Technology. Carries a heavier gun up for'ard that can fire the extended range ammo, can carry a helo up to NH90 size and hangar it, it's more versatile in that can mount VLS if needed, towed sonar, MCM, Hydrographic, other littoral warfare requirements and I think better value for money. The RAN has a relationship with Navantia that spans across two ship classes so they know the builder. Pommy ships aren't the flavour of the month in the RAN at the moment either.

Certainly has to be leading the pack and it seems reasonably priced:

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So if this is a good option, what are the negatives about it?

 

[ngatimozart]

Certainly has to be leading the pack and it seems reasonably priced:

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So if this is a good option, what are the negatives about it?

Well if the RNZN was to buy some it's have to be ice strengthend to Class 1C which is not a major issue. The Kiwi and Aussie navies being similiar the major disadvantages would be that it doesn't have a brewery or a bordello on board.

 

[justsomeaussie]

Well if the RNZN was to buy some it's have to be ice strengthend to Class 1C which is not a major issue. The Kiwi and Aussie navies being similiar the major disadvantages would be that it doesn't have a brewery or a bordello on board.

SEA1180 doesn't have an ice going capability. That's going to dedicated ships.

 

[Padfoot]

I think you'd be far better off with the Navantia BAM Buques de Acción Marítima (BAM) Class Patrol Vessels - Naval Technology. Carries a heavier gun up for'ard that can fire the extended range ammo, can carry a helo up to NH90 size and hangar it, it's more versatile in that can mount VLS if needed, towed sonar, MCM, Hydrographic, other littoral warfare requirements and I think better value for money. The RAN has a relationship with Navantia that spans across two ship classes so they know the builder. Pommy ships aren't the flavour of the month in the RAN at the moment either.

Very different animals, Amazonas class is a third of the price.Relationship? BAE is Australia's largest defence manufacturer these days.

 

[ngatimozart]

Very different animals, Amazonas class is a third of the price.Relationship? BAE is Australia's largest defence manufacturer these days.

Maybe but are not the RAN looking for a vessel that not can do the ACPB role but also the littoral warfare role? That is a role that I don't think the Amazonas can do. You maybe able to land a helo on an Amazonas but you can't hangar it. Can it undertke a secondary role like ASW if needed? Cheap is cheap and you have to look at the requirement and the platform. You also have to be able to look ahead and allow room for expansion, upgrades and the possibility of the addition of extra roles aka flexibility. The title for SEA 1180 is Patrol Boat, Mine Hunter Coastal and Hydrographic Ship Replacement Project and another title for SEA 1180 is Offshore Combat Vessel. the Amazonas class will not be able to do all those rolls in one hull and it is not a proper offshore combat vessel. Also it has a crew of 70 compared to the BAM which has a crew of 30. Yes BAE is Australias largest defence manufacturer but it isn't the only builder of OPVs / OPCs.

 

[Padfoot]

Maybe but are not the RAN looking for a vessel that not can do the ACPB role but also the littoral warfare role? That is a role that I don't think the Amazonas can do. You maybe able to land a helo on an Amazonas but you can't hangar it. Can it undertke a secondary role like ASW if needed? Cheap is cheap and you have to look at the requirement and the platform. You also have to be able to look ahead and allow room for expansion, upgrades and the possibility of the addition of extra roles aka flexibility. The title for SEA 1180 is Patrol Boat, Mine Hunter Coastal and Hydrographic Ship Replacement Project and another title for SEA 1180 is Offshore Combat Vessel. the Amazonas class will not be able to do all those rolls in one hull and it is not a proper offshore combat vessel. Also it has a crew of 70 compared to the BAM which has a crew of 30. Yes BAE is Australias largest defence manufacturer but it isn't the only builder of OPVs / OPCs.

You're totally correct. I guess my point was that comparing the Amazonas class with the BAM was slightly unfair. The BAE Khareef class is a better comparison, no?

 

[ngatimozart]

You're totally correct. I guess my point was that comparing the Amazonas class with the BAM was slightly unfair. The BAE Khareef class is a better comparison, no?

No. Methinks you are still missing the point. Whilst the BAM is only one vessel it offers the ability to change from one role to another quickly. So you can insert a surface to surface VLS missile module or an ASW torpedo module or a MCM module quickly. It also only has a crew of 30 which would be dependant upon the mission. You need a vessel that is adaptable and flexible like that. It has a permanent hangar that will take a NH90 or similar helo, plus the 76mm auto cannon up for'rad with the extra long range ammo.

 

[King Wally]

No. Methinks you are still missing the point. Whilst the BAM is only one vessel it offers the ability to change from one role to another quickly. So you can insert a surface to surface VLS missile module or an ASW torpedo module or a MCM module quickly. It also only has a crew of 30 which would be dependant upon the mission. You need a vessel that is adaptable and flexible like that. It has a permanent hangar that will take a NH90 or similar helo, plus the 76mm auto cannon up for'rad with the extra long range ammo.

This post pretty much sums up why I think the BAM is perfect for the RAN. So much flexibility and capability in a relatively small platform that isn't crew intensive. Apart from the obvious benifits of the Module system being able to embark with that helo has got to be a huge asset too. Add in the fact Navantia has a track record with the RAN and you know who you are dealing with and it surely has to leave this top of the pile as far as options go.

 

[justsomeaussie]

This post pretty much sums up why I think the BAM is perfect for the RAN. So much flexibility and capability in a relatively small platform that isn't crew intensive. Apart from the obvious benifits of the Module system being able to embark with that helo has got to be a huge asset too. Add in the fact Navantia has a track record with the RAN and you know who you are dealing with and it surely has to leave this top of the pile as far as options go.

Cost is going to be a major issue though while SEA1180 has 3-5 billion put up against it you need to factor in through life costs and all the modules. That means you'll be unlikely to get 20 BAMs. I still prefer a split role, one hull is the BAM type performing the "combat" side of things the other performing the surveillance and Gillard ferry service.

 

[hauritz]

I can't really see us getting 20 OPVs.

I would perhaps suggest that we look at creating a new tier system for the navy.

I would look at buying a few extra Hobart class vessels ... perhaps without AEGIS to keep the costs down.

I would then introduce a new class of vessel that would be more capable than vessel described in SEA1180 but less capable than the proposed ANZAC replacement.

Finally there would be a class of patrol vessels ... essentially just large patrol boats ... as a more direct replacement for the current patrol boat fleet.

The exact mix would depend on the budget but it could be something like

8 - 9 Destroyers, 12 Corvettes/Frigates, 12 Patrol craft.

 

[seatmarbella]

Yes, for Bam, there are design hull differences, from the patrol or combatant to the other versions like hidro-oceanographic, or intelligence collector or support to divers.
There is no mention to countermines version apart from the containerized systems that can exist, more than that i suppose that it has to be designed yet.

Spanish Bam, which are ocean patrol type with some some weapons and significant technology equipment, it costs 148 million euro or 185 Australian dollars, but depending on size and equipment price can vary. Maybe that price is the most expensive priced unit, and the most militarly equipped, out of the 10 or 20 Opv to acquire, so it could come the whole program in the 3000 - 5000 Australian dollar millions range. Just 20 of them make 3700 million to acquire, the rest to maintain them.

 

[Richo99]

adroit opv

I know the old saying that steel is cheep and air is free, but sea 1180 clearly states that the maximum size of vessels is to be 2000t. This clearly discounts the BAM unless there is a rescoping of the project.

I mentioned it before but got little interest from the forum, the 1500t Adroit (Gowind) opv seems a pretty good fit for the requirement assuming it can accommodate some mission modules (ie containers) somewhere. Has already been considered for mcm tasks and can launch uuvs from the stern ramps. Hanger for 7t helo + s100 UAVs. All at what is supposed to be a pretty reasonable price.

20x 2500t almost combat capable BAMs to replace 270t ACPBs just isn't going to happen....

 

[deepsixteen]

Hi

If you want modular talk to the experts talk to the Danes and modify [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knud_Rasmussen_class_ocean_patrol_crafts"]Knud Rasmussen-class patrol vessel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] to meet your needs.

Deepsixteen

 

[justsomeaussie]

Except they never actually swapped any of the modules out and it was so successful that no on else bought it.

 

[Todjaeger]

Except they never actually swapped any of the modules out and it was so successful that no on else bought it.

It seems to have worked and be working for the Danes. They have something like five classes of vessel which are fitted to use/carry StanFlex containers. Including a new class of frigate which has either just started entering service, or due to enter service in the next year or so.

The Danes might not have spent much time swapping out modules because they may not have needed to. Some of that is going to depend on how many examples of which different modules would be acquired. AFAIK the Danes have not had much need in the last two decades for using/carrying a SAM module. However, if the Danes were to get drawn into a shooting war, then those modules would most likely be needed.

Where people would need to really look, would be at what roles Australia needs fufilled, how many days at sea needed per role per year, how many days a hull would be available, then start working out which modules would be needed and how many.

-Cheers

 

[deepsixteen]

Hi

Clearly a rubbish idea must be why they kept it and fitted it to all subsequent classes.

Deepsixteen

 

[justsomeaussie]

Hi

Clearly a rubbish idea must be why they kept it and fitted it to all subsequent classes.

Deepsixteen

Perhaps you are getting mixed up with mission modules (which as I said they don't "hot swap" and containerised modules which are effectively shipping containers which can be hooked up to ship services such as chilled water, LAN and power.

 

[Todjaeger]

Perhaps you are getting mixed up with mission modules (which as I said they don't "hot swap" and containerised modules which are effectively shipping containers which can be hooked up to ship services such as chilled water, LAN and power.

They have included Stanflex mission module slots/sockets in basically all new Danish naval construction.

That does suggest that the options having mission modules allows is still beneficial.

And while the Royal Danish Navy might not in normal operations swap out mission modules, that practice might change if the operational needs/tempo changed for the Danes. By the same token, if another navy adopted Stanflex containerized mission modules, depending on the operational needs for that navy and their inventory of mission modules, module swapping might be a regular occurrance.

-Cheers

 

[StingrayOZ]

Just because they aren't swapping them every other week doesn't mean its a bad idea. Danes live in a fairly stable environment. Whereas no doubt the RAN would be converting survey ships into refugee limos every other week (or at least seasonally). It would be very useful for everyone to have these minor ships able to convert or adapt (at least somewhat) when needed. Huons are not going to make great refugee patrol boats for example.

I do think the ability to hanger a Helo(or and a UAV) is extremely important. Some of these designs could be significant tailored (reduced or expanded in size), given the the 20 requirement and I'm sure other nations would look very interested in them as well (NZ, other Pacific islands possibly).

Bigger than 2000t would most likely limit moorings and what not. But the OCV might be more like a family of ships. Say 4x 2,500t, 16x 1,250t ships (maybe in 2 sub classes). Based off the same design, but uniquely tailored. The larger ships are to operate like motherships, more blue water patrols (whaling, fishing, illegal arms trade, anti piracy mothership), more aviation capability (2 hangers + fuel?). While the smaller ships are more like large patrol ships (1 Helo landing, 1 UAV/small squirrel like hanger).