Flanker Export Thread

[Air Force Brat]

This is why I like this forum. I was also under the assumption that the Chinese J-11/J-15 were a direct copy of the Flanker. They do look alike and I remember reading that the Russians were presumably ticked at this. As you pointed out, no official sources were quoted.

Regarding Lynx vs BMP-3, well, if you put one in front of the other, the BMP-3 wins ^^

Well I'm quite certain that some folks on the Russian side were ticked, Su-27s, S30s, J-11a and bs, J-15, J-15s, J-16, and Su-35s,,,,,A Flanker is a Flanker, thats one of the reasons the Chinese are buying 24 Su-35s, and four Lada class diesel/electric boats, now everyone is going to make Nicey-Nice, now there are some things in this package the Chinese really do want, and I would imagine the Su-35s are destined for the PLAAF, this will allow Shenyang to concentrate on the J-15, and J15S the two seater, and possibley the J-16, maybe even the J-31?likely some F-117s will be installed on the J-20s, this is the first MAJOR arms deal in 10 years, so I would say that everyone gets something out of this deal, and the Russians will be capitalized to build 24 Su-35s for their AIR FORCE, and to ramp up developement on the T-50, this is likely looking to be an opportune time to fire up the strategic partnership that has been a factor for at least sixty years, this does harken back to the last time things warmed up on the Korean Peninsula. Cheer Brat

 

[bia9x]

I want to know, the version of the Su-30MKI (made ​​by the HAL) and J-11B/BS (made ​​by Shenyang) are two versions of the best export Flanker variants?that's right!

 

[Air Force Brat]

I want to know, the version of the Su-30MKI (made ​​by the HAL) and J-11B/BS (made ​​by Shenyang) are two versions of the best export Flanker variants?that's right!

I think that might be a fairly safe assumption, of course I haven't personally examined either, but the two Mig-29s, and Mig 21 I have personally been up close and personal with, were not airworthy at the time, having been "spirited out of a former Soviet Republic". I believe those who have examined the J-11Bs have been quite impressd, and from the pictures and videos of the J-15s doing traps on the Liaoning, even in primer, they are very slick????? but to be honest, I can't say for sure.
I mention the Migs, because the only Su product I have personally examined were civilian airshow aircraft, but very nice??? so this is pure speculation on my part, I would add this to my former comments about unhappy people in the former license building arrangement, there were also accusations that the equipment supplied under the license building aggreement fell far short of what was expected and took a lot of work and back and forth to complete the kits, this I have gathered from the Sino Defense forum by Dieno and others who know a great deal more than I, so take this with a grain of salt. Of course Feanor is our own resident expert on all things Russian, and otherwise, so I would defer my own anecdotal observations to his actuall hands on observations. Cheers Brat

 

[bia9x]

I think the Chinese Su-35, if any, will be used as the enemy assumes (referring to Su-30MKI), so the border if there is a conflict if the Su-30MKI can face thewith Su-35S (export version definitely will have reduced features, such as old AL41 TVC, no radar Irbis-E) and the entire weapon old Russian (R-27/73/77) or new China's efficiency unverified (PL-8/9/10/12).

So this war will depend on the level of pilot

 

[Feanor]

Looks like the Su-30KIs are going to Angola. They just signed a package for spare parts, Mi-17 helos, arty, tanks, and an ammunition factory. All for 1 billion dollars.

Lenta.ru:

It seems like a lot for so little money. But the Flankers are probably discounted.

 

[Haavarla]

I want to know, the version of the Su-30MKI (made ​​by the HAL) and J-11B/BS (made ​​by Shenyang) are two versions of the best export Flanker variants?that's right!

Umm.. listen. The J-11A and B Version is a singel seater copy of Su-27SKM.

The Su-30MKI is a two seater developed from Irkut Sukhoi.

They are quite different in some ways, and not very compairible due to Singel crew vs two crew.

As far as i know the two best Flanker export Version are the Su-30MKI and Su-30MKM, they are both Irkut produced Version.
Beside, you can't say the J-11 is an Export Flanker anyway..


On a slightly different note.
A Heavy Russian deligation is currently visiting South America, signing deals or at least trying.

http://en.ria.ru/military_news/2013...Stake-in-Future-Advanced-Fighter-Project.html

Would be interesting to see if anyting goes through..

 

[Haavarla]

Russia did make some deals in SA, but not on fighters. Its mostly Helios and missile defence systems.

US?? no they can't do shit about nothing. They do not have any leverage in that region..
Just look at Brasil Fighter Tender and you get the Picture

 

[StobieWan]

They won't have to - any buyer will look at the spares and support record of the Russians and think again I'd suppose. Unless the Russians really buff up their aftersales, they'll struggle.

 

[Bonza]

US?? no they can't do shit about nothing.

Maybe you could try being a little more articulate than this?

 

[Feanor]

They won't have to - any buyer will look at the spares and support record of the Russians and think again I'd suppose. Unless the Russians really buff up their aftersales, they'll struggle.

There have been reports coming out of Venezuela stating that their Flankers are experienced problems due to lack of spares. Then again the info is not concrete, so it might be other problems, or nothing at all.

A Heavy Russian deligation is currently visiting South America, signing deals or at least trying.

http://en.ria.ru/military_news/2013...Stake-in-Future-Advanced-Fighter-Project.html

Would be interesting to see if anyting goes through..

They've been trying to sell T-90s to Peru, and have recently sold them some helos. I doubt there's much of a market for Flankers there now.

They supposedly offered Brazil some sort of participation in the PAK-FA quite a while ago, but nothing came of it. It's probably prohibitively expensive.

EDIT: But there are news articles stating that Russia is pushing the Su-35 in Indonesia, as a replacement for the F-5s.

http://www.arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=124833&cid=25

 

[gf0012-aust]

They won't have to - any buyer will look at the spares and support record of the Russians and think again I'd suppose. Unless the Russians really buff up their aftersales, they'll struggle.

both the Malays and the Indians have been shifting to more western gear because of their crap support contracts.

The Indians started doing the shift 5 years ago, and once the old generation of IAF senior sirs retire the leak will get faster

the problem for the russians is that they assumed that airforces like India were a captive market and didn't listen to the undercurrent of discontent about parts availability and support rates (esp turn around times)

I said 5 years ago that the IAF was going to shift their procurement posture to more western gear and got howled at by enthusiastic teenagers screaming the "russian aircraft strong, western aircraft crap" mantra.....

they'started with flying trucks to deal with logistics and then went to the P8s ( I don't know for how many years I stated how their Mays with SeaDragon fitouts were an ongoing disaster and that the IAF was after digital P3's or getting the P8's. Hell we had indian brokers asking my company to help negotiate on P3's in 2001 - so they were looking at migrating to western tech as far back as then to get past the capability deficiencies. (shows how "immature" the brokers were as you can't use a foreign middleman to deal with a state to state issue (ie IDF to State)

so the next stage will be western fixed wing combat air - and that will be within 10 years as well.

you will still get the idiot element trotting out Cope India chat as a counter, but you just can't explain to people who are fundamentally clueless in the first place and don't understand the issues driving this at even the most basic level

One of my lessons learnt was to let the detractors continue on in fantasy land as they were never going to appreciate the broader issues involved.

The Russians have consistently failed on after sales or even contracted support. I know that first hand from when I had my own mil tech company and dealt first hand with ex WARPAC, India and Indonesia. Unfort the fanclubbers will base their faith and commitment on internet research and don't have any desire to listen to anyone who has dealt with them first hand.

go figure...

 

[StobieWan]

I've read some horrifying stuff relating to India's experiences - I'm trying to remember where I tripped over it but there was one contract to bring a missile into service that dragged on for so long, the aircraft was more or less on the way to the bone yard by the time it was all squared away.

And there are supporting comments from Cope India as well - the passing comment that the Russians would only supply replacement engines on an exchange basis, and only once the defunct part was with them said a lot, when you're comparing Western support packages where they'll get one on an aircraft and fly the old one back inside of 24 hours.

At one level, doesn't really matter how good the gear is if it's in a hangar, down for parts - we saw that for the F15, and the Typhoon in UK service where we didn't buy in parts, preferring to pick over spare jets to save cash (at the expense of many hours swapping bits out)

In the case of the Russian stuff, the customer care element just doesn't seem to be there - the Western companies are often used to supporting air lines where time down is money lost, and even some of the military support contracts are on availability/hours flown (the UK seems to be leading that particular charge)

 

[gf0012-aust]

I'
At one level, doesn't really matter how good the gear is if it's in a hangar, down for parts - we saw that for the F15, and the Typhoon in UK service where we didn't buy in parts, preferring to pick over spare jets to save cash (at the expense of many hours swapping bits out)

In the case of the Russian stuff, the customer care element just doesn't seem to be there - the Western companies are often used to supporting air lines where time down is money lost, and even some of the military support contracts are on availability/hours flown (the UK seems to be leading that particular charge)

I think thats the problem with these kids whose sum knowledge about real world military platforms is either derived from the Discovery Channel or from the internet

It is common knowledge within defence circles and industry that the russian civil and military availability and maint rates are just woeful

the continued frustration for outfits like the IAF revolves around complete tech transfer - something that even long term partners with the US don't even seek (something that I still struggle to explain adequately to some IAF colleagues) - once that hurdle is addressed the Indians will drop Russian gear like a hot potato. - and we see that happening already with a wide range of russian gear in their service.

it amazes me that the russians haven't listened even after the 12 years that I've been personally aware of the support and mgt struggles...

the french really screwed the pooch on Rafale as the IAF was falling over for access to decent western FWCA

 

[StobieWan]

I think it's a cultural thing - I've spoken with Russians about all sorts of things over the years and while they're quite often engagingly funny and passionate, I can't see any of them scoring highly in a "lessons learned" presentation. Not after having listened to one of them tell me how much better Chernobyl had been handled than Fukushima.

It's a shame - some of their hardware is great, and they've done some fabulous engineering for space applications - but without that shift in mind set to a customer focus, I can't see them owning the problem and fixing their supply chain issues.

Still, you know the saying..amateurs talk tactics...professionals talk logistics.

 

[swerve]

...
so the next stage will be western fixed wing combat air - and that will be within 10 years as well....

go figure...

Never completely gone away from that. Vampires, Ouragans, Hunters, Mysteres, Gnats, Ajeets & Mirage 2000s - always been some Western or Western-derived fighter in service. Plus, of course, Western strike aircraft (Canberra, Jaguar) & naval fighters (Sea Hawk, Sea Harrier).

 

[Haavarla]

Maybe you could try being a little more articulate than this?

That quote of Yours is totaly taken out of context and you know it..
I was responding to another member here.

 

[Haavarla]

both the Malays and the Indians have been shifting to more western gear because of their crap support contracts.

The Indians started doing the shift 5 years ago, and once the old generation of IAF senior sirs retire the leak will get faster

the problem for the russians is that they assumed that airforces like India were a captive market and didn't listen to the undercurrent of discontent about parts availability and support rates (esp turn around times)

I said 5 years ago that the IAF was going to shift their procurement posture to more western gear and got howled at by enthusiastic teenagers screaming the "russian aircraft strong, western aircraft crap" mantra.....

they'started with flying trucks to deal with logistics and then went to the P8s ( I don't know for how many years I stated how their Mays with SeaDragon fitouts were an ongoing disaster and that the IAF was after digital P3's or getting the P8's. Hell we had indian brokers asking my company to help negotiate on P3's in 2001 - so they were looking at migrating to western tech as far back as then to get past the capability deficiencies. (shows how "immature" the brokers were as you can't use a foreign middleman to deal with a state to state issue (ie IDF to State)

so the next stage will be western fixed wing combat air - and that will be within 10 years as well.

you will still get the idiot element trotting out Cope India chat as a counter, but you just can't explain to people who are fundamentally clueless in the first place and don't understand the issues driving this at even the most basic level

One of my lessons learnt was to let the detractors continue on in fantasy land as they were never going to appreciate the broader issues involved.

The Russians have consistently failed on after sales or even contracted support. I know that first hand from when I had my own mil tech company and dealt first hand with ex WARPAC, India and Indonesia. Unfort the fanclubbers will base their faith and commitment on internet research and don't have any desire to listen to anyone who has dealt with them first hand.

go figure...

When you say "Russian", which Manufactor are you refering to?
In case you havent noticed, IAF are quite happy about their MKI, and they are in the prossess of ordering more of them.

If the "Russian" you mean MIG RAC, well i agree. But do try to seperate the different deals With different manufactors.

But it seems the current Mig-29K deal are a different Product from a different time vs the older Mig-29 deals. Hardly compairable.

If India was so displeased With all Russian Products they would have sniffed at the Pak-Fa eighter would they..

Go figure..

 

[gf0012-aust]

If India was so displeased With all Russian Products they would have sniffed at the Pak-Fa eighter would they..

Go figure..

Fantastic

I know you are compelled to come out and do your bit about russian hardware for some unknown reason re a complex about platform inferiority or conversely superiority - but the reality is that the IDF is absolutely and has loudly been letting the russians know that they are fed up with the nature of their support -

go figure indeed - and drop the attitude, I don't have the patience (nor do some of the other mods to put up with infantile protestations anymore)

and trying to counter a core issue of debate with one platform riposte completely ignores all the grief that all 3 Indian Services, plus the Indian ExChequer have been cranky about

don't let the reality of what's actually happening hit you on the way out. (as evidenced by the almost indecent Indian rush to start replacing swathes of russian capability with euro or US gear so as to address fundamental issues of tech capability, sustainment and availability.

and don't come back with some pithy response as it might not be dealt with in a fashion you expect.

 

[gf0012-aust]

That quote of Yours is totaly taken out of context and you know it..
I was responding to another member here.

The lack of sophistication in your response and delivered as it was presented is still unworthy of a senior members contribution to the debate

 

[gf0012-aust]

Never completely gone away from that. Vampires, Ouragans, Hunters, Mysteres, Gnats, Ajeets & Mirage 2000s - always been some Western or Western-derived fighter in service. Plus, of course, Western strike aircraft (Canberra, Jaguar) & naval fighters (Sea Hawk, Sea Harrier).

they've always tried to keep their oar in the water (a bit like the Malay philosophy on disparate procurement) but the trend to move away from tradtional russian supply started changing 5 years ago, Its slowly been gathering momentum to shift the traditonal IAF force dev model from russian FWCA to more euro/western

Unfort for the IDF thats also making the exchequer still cranky as part of Indias problem has been about a jumbled orbat - and the support costs to maintain that orbat with diff supply trains and in real terms a lot of orphaned platform support will just makes things harder.

if you're going to run multiple platforms in the FWCA role you really either need to demonstrate a compelling overall need or you need to revisit how you want to do business. Their logistics tail and availability would be killing them in peacetime - let alone having to go to war under the same support contract handcuffs