Nice idea............. But I doubt most pollies Can get past shiny kit syndrome.
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
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Sorry I do not share your confidence. The design is a lot different inside and that may lead to more issues previously not picked up.
justsomeaussie
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Heard some reasonable impressions coming out of Customs. How about we hold judgments till its operational
Some of us have seen the specs - and also seen how Customs evaluate platforms.
Have to say that on personal experience, I'm with Alexas on this.
They're nicknamed HMAS Harvey Norman for a reason.....
The tradgedy is though, that given the lack of commitment, money and appreciation of their roles, both Labor or an incoming coalition are likely to give us a follow on modified Cape for Sea 1180 and to hell with Mine Warfare.
Senator Johnson hasn't inspired so far.
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- #10,486
Im following the OPV for a good reason as some of you know. Ive watched the French OPV Gowinds with some interest, and the UAV trials onboard only increase my interest. S-100 was mentioned early on for UAVs to be operated from RAN vessels. There were a few things that the company was working on to get it as a contender for use, so if they can achieve it then could look good.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_Yy0aaXoE4"]S100 Camcopter UAV trials onboard Adroit OPV - YouTube[/nomedia]
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_Yy0aaXoE4"]S100 Camcopter UAV trials onboard Adroit OPV - YouTube[/nomedia]
justsomeaussie
Member
Camcopter is pretty much leading the way for smaller vessels. ScanEagle's launch and recover mechanism just take up too much room on our patrol boats. The logic is keep small UAVs with small boats.
HMAS Harvey Norman some may call customs vessels but they've certainly got a superior vessel to the Armidales. Lets home DMS can actually maintain these ones.
Not sure how you can say that. The specs haven't been released to the public and no vessels are in the water
If you seriously think that the fitout is good then I think you're thinking of another vessel
I'm not going to say what would be of concern on a public forum, but you surely must be thinking of something else
justsomeaussie
Member
Mate they announced the first vessel in the water a week or so ago. Plenty to read about it all. You can even follow it driving around on MarineTraffic
I'm just impressed that people must think Customs are complete muppets to buy such a "bad" design.
t68
Well-Known Member
Yep Cape St George is on trials at the moment according to this press release,
Cape St George
and underway,
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVKvayWash4"]Cape St George - YouTube[/nomedia]
Me, personally I wish the RAN would relinquish the entire role to Customs and border patrol so that RAN can receive something like the Spanish BAMS focusing on ASW and Customs vessel come under RAN control in times of heighten tensions similar what the USCG do. But would like customs to receive improved Armidale class boats with 25mm gun.
Cape St George
and underway,
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVKvayWash4"]Cape St George - YouTube[/nomedia]
Me, personally I wish the RAN would relinquish the entire role to Customs and border patrol so that RAN can receive something like the Spanish BAMS focusing on ASW and Customs vessel come under RAN control in times of heighten tensions similar what the USCG do. But would like customs to receive improved Armidale class boats with 25mm gun.
justsomeaussie
Member
Is that a better model though? Both Customs and Navy have trouble crewing just that Customs crews are typically older and more experienced. They also use FIFO for crewing rather than local postings.
What do we gain by making Customs another service?
What do we gain by making Customs another service?
Nothing but what do we gain by having two agencies doing the same role? If the NMU (or whatever it’s called today) was to be absorbed into the Navy then the Navy could also man some patrol boats with civil crews like customs to alleviate crewing problems. Though if the Navy was to man their AOR/AO with civil crews as per the RFA then the 250 odd sailors freed up would certainly boost patrol boat crewing. One agency, HMA Patrol Boats, with 30 boats (Bay, ‘Town’, Cape class) and crews to need.
t68
Well-Known Member
Thanks Abraham, I was not aware that the control of the water craft was done by contractors as I’ve seen quite a few armed customs agents up in Port Brisbane near the water police so assumed they were training with them and it the maritime part of customs/border protection was more paramilitary in nature.
justsomeaussie
Member
I was hedging more along the lines with t68. Turn patrol boats purely into a Customs/BPC role. Turn hydrography civilian and create a 2000ton corvette class (SEA1180) putting combat back into smaller sized vessels. The distinction here is combat. Not just shooting your .50 off the side but opponents who fire back. Keep the RAN warfighters and not ferrying about immigrants. Customs should be dealing with migration issues not a Defence force.
The RAN isn’t funded to provide a combat corvette. It’s a patrol corvette that will be useable in war like a patrol boat is but with the benefits that accrue from being a bigger corvette.
If people want combat corvettes then some serious money has to come from somewhere into SEA 1180 to pay for them. Even more so if you are going to spin out of SEA 1180 money for another 12-16 Cape class patrol boats to go to Customs. SEA 1180 might as well be on LCS scales as well to support the combat capability.
The patrol boat role has been part of the RAN for good reasons despite the obvious disconnect between sea police and warfighting. It provides an excellent means to train and identify commanding officers of frigates and destroyers. The boats are also useful in warfighting in our region as port/coastal defence and interdiction against local shipping.
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- #10,497
Agree, ive done Majors and the best COs ive seen have done small boat CO time, not gone straight to major XO then CO, which is the alternative career path.
Junior officers learn ship handling and are entrusted more and more via their own watches leading to Limited Watchingkeeping Certificate before Fleet board.
The other distinction is for certain positions ACPB work is a world away from Majors. Here you are required to be more capable, and have a better knowledge and understanding of your job then on say a frigate where theres 5-8 in your department you can slack off and rely on. The work load can be more at times, and less in others but having the confidence to do your job makes it easier to be identified for promotion and creates a better sailor.
The ACPB world is miles away from FBE, and the experiences sailors and officers get here, makes them better if they choose to return to Major fleet, personnally i dont know why you would but hey thats me.
We would lose a 1/3 of our budget, even if the ACPB fleet costs 1/20th we would lose 1/3, as it would be seen by Govt. as Customs require the funding to protect our borders, while Navy are for foreign missions.
Hydro provide a good link between the fleet and the navigation aspect, losing that would lose a lot of experience and make it harder to get people into certain billets ashore that provide a specialist knowledge.
If we want OCV then that would be an inbetween of a PB and Frigate, not a replacement entirely. OPV is required because the job has changed, and customs right now are at breaking point as much as we are. If it was not for ACV Triton and Ocean Protector, then i guarantee they would refuse to do the job, which they can do as most are contractors. Its extremly hard to conduct SAR and bring 100+ onboard a ACPB let alone the Bay class. The Capes are still a long way from mission capable, and will take time to work out the bugs as many experienced members here have mentioned.
The Cape may be an improvement over ACPB, but the Armidales flaws only showed after they increased the workload, reduced the maintanence and spent more time at sea then what was intended. When that happens to Capes we shall see how good they really are.
I could be wrong but i believe the PB crews are sworn (and armed) officers where the contractors are restricted to the larger ships, i.e. Triton and the orange thing.
I can still see a place for a combat corvette, build additional AWDs and design the OCV in such a way that eight of them can be built using bits and bobs lifted from the ANZACs while the rest are pure OPV, MCMV, and survey. Common hull and auxillaries but different propulsion and combat systems.
Look at what the UK is doing with the Type 26, they will lift their combat systems from upgraded Type 23s. We could do the same, a largish hull with all electric propulsion permitting eight of them to be fitted with the LM2500s lifted from the ANZACs as well as the CEAFAR, the upgraded SAAB 9LV CS, the Mk 41, torpedo tubes. The rest would rely on diesels and COTS sensor packages with a Typhoon or two if required in addition to what ever else their role requires
Look at what the UK is doing with the Type 26, they will lift their combat systems from upgraded Type 23s. We could do the same, a largish hull with all electric propulsion permitting eight of them to be fitted with the LM2500s lifted from the ANZACs as well as the CEAFAR, the upgraded SAAB 9LV CS, the Mk 41, torpedo tubes. The rest would rely on diesels and COTS sensor packages with a Typhoon or two if required in addition to what ever else their role requires
justsomeaussie
Member
How about we just wait?
For me it shows a massive level of ignorance where people think that Customs, Austal, DMS and Navy haven't learned anything. As I pointed out a while ago HMAS Anzac was taken to the southern ocean and the gigantic seas down there dramatically reduced her service life.
So who was to blame? Blohm & Voss because the Meko 200 design wasn't able to hold up, Navy for driving the vessel beyond her designed specifications or Tenix for not maintaining her to a level where she could withstand anything.
I think you'll find that with regards to ACPB that there is a level of acceptable blame across all parties but the level is going to be fought where each party blames the other two. The point is that the vessels were utilised far more than they were envisioned and designed for.
One thing is certain, this was all known about before Customs locked in the Austal design. So it is amazingly ignorant to think that Customs haven't put in extra analysis in the build, the operating environment of their vessels and the suitability in the design.
I'll tell you one thing, having been on an Armidale when they were still relatively new and shiny and having seen the state that they are in now tells me that any concept of ship's husbandry and looking after "your" ship is completely gone.
Bring back Admirals where COs have their ship inspected and they are forced to look after their vessels.
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