Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[ADMk2]

RAAF has always had the capacity to take it on.....

Out of all the Services, they've been the ones who've fiercely protected their use of engineers - and it shows in their decision making...

Earlier comment was intended with tongue firmly planted in cheek...

 

[aussienscale]

Just took some photos of the SPS Cantabria in Sydney.
What a good looking ship she is.It was docked at Chowder Bay.
The ship will be around for a few more days.
Makes HMAS Success look like and old hag

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Nice pics mate, thanks for posting, she certainly would put Success to shame, no doubt the ships company would have used a lot of polish on the way to get her looking good.

I wonder if the Spanish Government and shipbuilders are now sweating the result of the Federal Election now that this arrangement is in place ?

Cheers

 

[Blas de Lezo]

Very nice pics, thanks!!.
Great scenery,
I understand Cantabria is going to be based at Sidney, is that finger part of a bigger base? . Please excuse my ignorance, I was just thinking about refueling and re-storing and vehicle access and all those things.
Could you post a google location, thanks

 

[the road runner]

Blas de Lezo i am not sure if this is where Cantabria will be based,one of the Naval guys would know better than me.I took the photos from Chowder bay ,the wharf is "The Naval refuelling wharf" ,owned by NAVY (RAN),but the rest of the area is public land that was handed back to the Harbour trust.

I am assuming Fleet Base East is were she would be kept if staying in Sydney??

http://www.harbourtrust.gov.au/docs/visitor-guide-chowder-bay.pdf

I was trying to upload photos to the Defence talk "Pictures section(Spanish navy)," but don't think i can???

 

[Blas de Lezo]

Thank you Road Runner, very helpful

 

[ngatimozart]

Blas de Lezo i am not sure if this is where Cantabria will be based,one of the Naval guys would know better than me.I took the photos from Chowder bay ,the wharf is "The Naval refuelling wharf" ,owned by NAVY (RAN),but the rest of the area is public land that was handed back to the Harbour trust.

I am assuming Fleet Base East is were she would be kept if staying in Sydney??

http://www.harbourtrust.gov.au/docs/visitor-guide-chowder-bay.pdf

I was trying to upload photos to the Defence talk "Pictures section(Spanish navy)," but don't think i can???

That looked like a refuelling wharf. Cantabria was also flying a red flag so I would say she was refuelling. The "No Smoking" signs were out

 

[the road runner]

Yep Chowder Bay is a refuelling wharf.Just a few more pics i went a bit trigger happy

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Also a little video

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJeETIhm1hc"]SPS Cantabria in Sydney - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[icelord]

Cantabria is expected to berth at Fleet Base East, in Potts Point Sydney, alongside the Eastern fleet which includes HMAS Success. She will be utilised for a variety of excercises through out the year(hoping to see her during one later on, although we wont refuel from her as we use a garden hose on Patrol boats compared to probe refuelling) before capping off with International Fleet Review and a more then likely purchase by governement regardless of whos running the show(im tipping announcement before september 14...just saying)
If and when we do purchase Cantabria it will only extend our problems with refuellers, the RAN requires 2 new AOR to replace Success and Sirius in the one go, and if we go with Cantabria then we are buying 2nd hand, and will either order a new ship of same class, or entirely new design. This has many flaws and will be mishandled by someone involved in the chain.
A new order of 2 Cantabria class, or call Sth Korea and add on to the order for the RFA of MARS tankers would be the smart option right now, as time is critical. Regardless of spin and assuarances, HMAS Success will not make it to 2014 let alone 2016....

 

[t68]

Was just reading the highlights of ADM by email and curious tibit of info came up about HMAS Choules, a question was put before Senate estimates about a warranty claim from the RFA. I could not open the whole article as I font subscribe, but being a second hand purchase does the RAN have a leg to stand on or is it a case of caveat emptor......

 

[olde navy]

Havn't heard too much regarding Success of late. Is any member able to give an update on just what is happening to her. I presume the problems are long term hence the arrival for 12 months of the Spanish AOR.

 

[Volkodav]

Cantabria is expected to berth at Fleet Base East, in Potts Point Sydney, alongside the Eastern fleet which includes HMAS Success. She will be utilised for a variety of excercises through out the year(hoping to see her during one later on, although we wont refuel from her as we use a garden hose on Patrol boats compared to probe refuelling) before capping off with International Fleet Review and a more then likely purchase by governement regardless of whos running the show(im tipping announcement before september 14...just saying)
If and when we do purchase Cantabria it will only extend our problems with refuellers, the RAN requires 2 new AOR to replace Success and Sirius in the one go, and if we go with Cantabria then we are buying 2nd hand, and will either order a new ship of same class, or entirely new design. This has many flaws and will be mishandled by someone involved in the chain.
A new order of 2 Cantabria class, or call Sth Korea and add on to the order for the RFA of MARS tankers would be the smart option right now, as time is critical. Regardless of spin and assuarances, HMAS Success will not make it to 2014 let alone 2016....

A pair of Lewis & Clark T-AKE, for all the reasons Abe has covered previously, thank you very much. These ships would not only romp in our tanker requirement but would also go a long way to covering the logistics and disaster relief work we seem to do a lot of, permitting the RAN to do without Skandi Bergans in the future.

 

[the road runner]

If and when we do purchase Cantabria it will only extend our problems with refuellers, the RAN requires 2 new AOR to replace Success and Sirius in the one go, and if we go with Cantabria then we are buying 2nd hand, and will either order a new ship of same class, or entirely new design. This has many flaws and will be mishandled by someone involved in the chain.

Surly we will get a deal if we do purchase Cantabria ,with the Spanish economy being in turmoil. Icelord do you think Cantabria is the wrong ship for the RAN?

A new order of 2 Cantabria class,

3 AOR's in total including Cantabria?I must say ,when i saw Cantabria was very impressed with how good she looked. A very sexy piece of steel.

Cheers.

 

[Jezza]

Or buy a new build Cantabria class and Get SPS Cantabria at a great discount.
Like you said it may be a good time to deal with Spain.
I suppose we have the current deployment to see if its suitable for RAN

 

[icelord]

Surly we will get a deal if we do purchase Cantabria ,with the Spanish economy being in turmoil. Icelord do you think Cantabria is the wrong ship for the RAN?

Cheers.

Dont get me wrong on this, with the state that success is in a tinny with a couple of drums on the back would be more effective and available for sea then she is, my concern lies in 2nd hand purchases. While she is only 2 years old, my concern lies in the way we conduct ourselves with a vessel.

Look at choules, in RFA hands she was gold on the sea, and once we got our hands on it we destroyed the way the UK operated her. We had to "australianise" it, meaning double the people, less control of engineering side(how you ask? simple, contractors with deadlines and poor ship knowledge) and change the way she operates at sea. When people first heard that we were acquiring it, many volunteered to get onboard, now its considered a career killer or morale destroyer if you post onto her. Considering the new XO has a wonderful reputation in the RAN, i hope that is changing this year.

Its more the building of a vessel sees people from the outset learn the ropes alot better. Marine engineers post into the acquisiton phase early to begin core knowledge of a platform, certain people posted to the US for Aegis training 5 years before AWD would be launched to ensure the right people went aboard, so its the ability to learn and adapt that has me concerned. LHD crew are being sounded out and told already that it will be 2 years onboard, 2 years ashore 2 years onboard to get a good knowledge of the systems across as many people.

If we get cantabria, then we will pick up a manual in spanish, wait 2 years for the english version, then adjust it over the next 2 years till we get a grip of the platform. When we get 2nd hand, its a complete lack of understanding that kills us, the next 9mths with Cantabria here will hopefully get alot of people through the ship to learn as much as possible, and if navy would pay for some basic spanish that would have helped but i find it doubtful from early reports.

3 AOR's in total including Cantabria?I must say ,when i saw Cantabria was very impressed with how good she looked. A very sexy piece of steel.

I meant 2 new build rather then cantabria and 2 more.

A pair of Lewis & Clark T-AKE, for all the reasons Abe has covered previously, thank you very much. These ships would not only romp in our tanker requirement but would also go a long way to covering the logistics and disaster relief work we seem to do a lot of, permitting the RAN to do without Skandi Bergans in the future.

I am a massive fan of the T-AKEs, ive done countless re supplies with them in Aus and on deployment, they are fantastic to RAS with, and there USNS Crews professionalism is beyond impressive, but it may be overkill unless we start sending them on deployments like the MEAO. Sure one of them could refuel the whole RAN fleet around Asia and Pacific, but whats the point and maintanece costs when we just utilise it for Australian station work.
And lets not get me started on Skandi...:flaming

 

[John Newman]

Dont get me wrong on this, with the state that success is in a tinny with a couple of drums on the back would be more effective and available for sea then she is, my concern lies in 2nd hand purchases. While she is only 2 years old, my concern lies in the way we conduct ourselves with a vessel.

Look at choules, in RFA hands she was gold on the sea, and once we got our hands on it we destroyed the way the UK operated her. We had to "australianise" it, meaning double the people, less control of engineering side(how you ask? simple, contractors with deadlines and poor ship knowledge) and change the way she operates at sea. When people first heard that we were acquiring it, many volunteered to get onboard, now its considered a career killer or morale destroyer if you post onto her. Considering the new XO has a wonderful reputation in the RAN, i hope that is changing this year.

Its more the building of a vessel sees people from the outset learn the ropes alot better. Marine engineers post into the acquisiton phase early to begin core knowledge of a platform, certain people posted to the US for Aegis training 5 years before AWD would be launched to ensure the right people went aboard, so its the ability to learn and adapt that has me concerned. LHD crew are being sounded out and told already that it will be 2 years onboard, 2 years ashore 2 years onboard to get a good knowledge of the systems across as many people.

If we get cantabria, then we will pick up a manual in spanish, wait 2 years for the english version, then adjust it over the next 2 years till we get a grip of the platform. When we get 2nd hand, its a complete lack of understanding that kills us, the next 9mths with Cantabria here will hopefully get alot of people through the ship to learn as much as possible, and if navy would pay for some basic spanish that would have helped but i find it doubtful from early reports.

I meant 2 new build rather then cantabria and 2 more.


I am a massive fan of the T-AKEs, ive done countless re supplies with them in Aus and on deployment, they are fantastic to RAS with, and there USNS Crews professionalism is beyond impressive, but it may be overkill unless we start sending them on deployments like the MEAO. Sure one of them could refuel the whole RAN fleet around Asia and Pacific, but whats the point and maintanece costs when we just utilise it for Australian station work.
And lets not get me started on Skandi...:flaming

What I think is more likely to happen is, if the loan/trial of Cantabria is seen as successful, the Government will probably order 'new' builds with whatever modifications are deemed necessary and also have any 'fixes' to the basic design included, which may be necessary as Cantabria is a 'first of class' ship.

Now where would they be built?

I could imagine that BAE, because it has been complaining about having to lay of staff because of lack of work, would be pushing for either a build here in Williamstown, or at the least something like what has been done with the LHD's where the hulls would be built in Spain and then BAE does a percentage of the build work and intergration, etc, here.

Might suit the Government in an election year to do something like I'm suggesting, 'appear' to be supporting shipbuilding.

If something like I've suggested above is possible, maybe the lease/loan of Cantabria could be extended thereby avoiding spending anymore $'s on Success.

 

[Milne Bay]

What I think is more likely to happen is, if the loan/trial of Cantabria is seen as successful, the Government will probably order 'new' builds with whatever modifications are deemed necessary and also have any 'fixes' to the basic design included, which may be necessary as Cantabria is a 'first of class' ship.

Now where would they be built?

I could imagine that BAE, because it has been complaining about having to lay of staff because of lack of work, would be pushing for either a build here in Williamstown, or at the least something like what has been done with the LHD's where the hulls would be built in Spain and then BAE does a percentage of the build work and intergration, etc, here.

Might suit the Government in an election year to do something like I'm suggesting, 'appear' to be supporting shipbuilding.

If something like I've suggested above is possible, maybe the lease/loan of Cantabria could be extended thereby avoiding spending anymore $'s on Success.

In spite of what we all think might be the best choice or most suitable ships, I think that this is the most likely scenario as well.
Cantabria isn't here just for the holiday or to just help us (and them) out of a tight spot.
Best assessment of what is likely to be IMHO as well.
Cheers
MB

 

[Volkodav]

In spite of what we all think might be the best choice or most suitable ships, I think that this is the most likely scenario as well.
Cantabria isn't here just for the holiday or to just help us (and them) out of a tight spot.
Best assessment of what is likely to be IMHO as well.
Cheers
MB

I doubt we will buy her, she is purpose designed, pretty much exactly what we need, is not painted orange, no pet civilian company has been involved in the loan and the defence ministers wife hasn't done any paid consultancy on it.

 

[John Newman]

In spite of what we all think might be the best choice or most suitable ships, I think that this is the most likely scenario as well.
Cantabria isn't here just for the holiday or to just help us (and them) out of a tight spot.
Best assessment of what is likely to be IMHO as well.
Cheers
MB

MB,

Originally I though that maybe it would be worth offering to buy Cantabria, but I changed my mind on that one a while back.

I'm sure by now the RAN (and Government) is probably a bit adverse to buying 'secondhand', eg, the LPA's and Choules, and there is no guarantee that the Spanish would be willing to part with her anyway.

And probably more importantly, obtaining new build work for the Australian shipbuilding industry will be more of a political winner for the Government anyway, especially in an election year too.

I'm sure that during this year, that various 'reports' on the capability and performance of the ship will work its way up the food chain to the powers that be.

And not just on how well this deployment is going, or how well the Spanish and Australian crew are working together, but more on, is this ship suitable as a Success replacement.

Be interesting to see if we get an announcement this year, will be a busy year of decisions on a lot of things due before the Election, but maybe not on this one.

Have to wait and see!

 

[ADMk2]

I doubt we will buy her, she is purpose designed, pretty much exactly what we need, is not painted orange, no pet civilian company has been involved in the loan and the defence ministers wife hasn't done any paid consultancy on it.

She is tied up at Garden Island at the moment doing very little, so she would fit in with the rest of RAN's fleet from that aspect...

:dbanana

 

[John Newman]

She is tied up at Garden Island at the moment doing very little, so she would fit in with the rest of RAN's fleet from that aspect...

:dbanana

I Hope she's not tied up under the Hammer Head crane, wouldn't want more bits falling off and hitting her, don't think our Spanish friends would be impressed!

If she is, I hope the Government remembers to keep the insurance policy up to date too!