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RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Rob, check this youtube interview with Independence CO's x 2 at about 4.30 mins they talk about operating 2 or 3 helo spots depending upon type. Flt deck is 31/2 times size of an AB

There's quite a few good youtube shows re this ship
. . . . .that's quite big. LockMarts equivalent of LCS-1 (aboard Fort Worth) isn't anywhere close to that.

But, the comment you're replying too is talking about how LCS-2 can do that, but in comparison I wasn't sure if LCS-1 could because it's got roughly 2/3 the flight deck space of LCS-2 and it's a quality you hear about for LCS-2 a fair amount but I haven't seen it for LCS-1 yet.

I suppose in a very crude sense we could apply the "3 or 2" comment, reduce it by a 3rd to get a 2 or 1 helo spot depending on helo size?
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Not much point if they can't. That would mean simply carrying a spare helicopter - bit like a spare tyre:D for a car.
They can't operate the CH 53's, but why would they need to?
A pair of MH-60's is a formidable loadout.
Cheers
MB
in reference to CH 53's, LCS 2 can lilypad them. Could be useful for the minewarfare versions if they're working together with the LCS's in that role.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
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I'd have a guess and say LCS-1's hanger is longer (and probably taller) than LCS-2, but LCS-2 has the wider hanger due to the nature of the hull. But they do seem pretty big, the MH-60 is a big bird. Makes you appreciate the sheer size of the flight deck really.
There is more than enough room to move two SH-60's on LCS-1 around. I will agree you can't do simultanious ops, but you can do sequential ops.

I suppose the lack of CH-53 capability was a weight saving measure to get the maximum sprint speed possible I guess? I suppose the advantage would come from operating 2 of her regular helos concurrently, but chances are the financial savings - be it construction costs/fuel costs of a lighter ship outweighed any sort of bonus capability (but would it be particularly useful?) that the CH-53 offers.
It wasn't in the specs. I don't think a Burke's or a OHP flight deck can handle a CH-53 either.

According to Bob Work's paper LCS 1&2 are prototypes, 3 &4 are pre production units all flight 0. The next 6 units are all Flight 0+ and there are a host of changes to both types from LCS 3 onwards.
Last I heard the Freedom type LCS-3+ will have some design changes compared to LCS-1. Specifically some changes to the gun magazine that got modified when it was in drydock in Norfolk Virginia and some changes that removes the requirement for the "butt cheeks" that were added later for added stability.

Not much point if they can't. That would mean simply carrying a spare helicopter - bit like a spare tyre:D for a car.
They can't operate the CH 53's, but why would they need to?
A pair of MH-60's is a formidable loadout.
Cheers
MB
No, it just means you do sequential launch and landing ops. Just like a Perry or Flight IIA Burke.

I find it interesting that people bang on about the LCS not being as capable as an OHP FFG when the truth is they are but one of the types that the LCS is meant to be replace. They are probably more akin to the WWII DE and DD conversions to APD (High Speed Transports), DMS (High Speed / Destroyer Mine Sweepers), as well as M/SGB, Sub Chasers etc.

They are definately more capable and survivable than the majority of craft, boats and minor warfare vessels they are intended to replace.
The way the US OHP's are armed these days the baseline 0 LCS are just as capable. :p:
There is a "proud" tradition for armchair admrials to decry every new class the USN develops and to hold the previous class as the greatest thing ever. The Spruance was decried as being a big empty box and looked bare compared to Soviet designs (never mind that it had larger magazines than the Soviet ships, and it had electronics that...worked) and that it had lots of spare margin for upgrades and varients.
The Tico's were decried as being too complicated, Aegis would never work and the software would implode with a high track load.
If you really want to read something entertaining go look up some of the critism of the early Perry class. Scratch out OHP and scribble in LCS and the narritive is the same.

in reference to CH 53's, LCS 2 can lilypad them. Could be useful for the minewarfare versions if they're working together with the LCS's in that role.
I don't think they can.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/navy-maritime/littoral-combat-ships-they-useful-9186-5/#post180602
See post 69 in that thread. I posted an interview with Adm. Bill Landay PEO for NAVSEA (the article I linked to no longer exists, unfoutunately).
 
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RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
There is more than enough room to move two SH-60's on LCS-1 around. I will agree you can't do simultanious ops, but you can do sequential ops.
Yup, simultaneous ops would be a 'bonus' maybe, but regular operations with 2 helos would still be a damn fine capability.

It wasn't in the specs. I don't think a Burke's or a OHP flight deck can handle a CH-53 either.
True, in the back of my mind I just thought it might've been in the agenda as - i think - weren't there some CH-53s kitted out with MCM gear a while back?

That's something I read aaaages ago, so could well be past it's use by date that info.

EDIT: Doesn't the MH-60 have some gear for that kinda thing too though?
 
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ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I don't think they can.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/navy-maritime/littoral-combat-ships-they-useful-9186-5/#post180602
See post 69 in that thread. I posted an interview with Adm. Bill Landay PEO for NAVSEA (the article I linked to no longer exists, unfoutunately).
Aegis, the attached link is one of several I've seen while trawling around the net reporting that should there be a requirement for LCS 2 to operate a CH 53, it could. Adm Landay didn't deny the possibility of operating a CH53, he just avoided the question, as I read it.
Independence Class Littoral Combat Ship (LCS 2)

Cheers
Chris
 

colay

New Member
A Navy Times story this week quoted Cmdr. Patrick Thien, commanding officer of one of Freedom’s two crews, saying, “I want my ship to look like a warship. … If we’re going to paint it, we might as well go all the way.”

Not sure how to take the above though, it sounds like he's complaining that the paint job looks incompletem.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Strange - very 1940's. Wonder if they'll do something with Indy or leave it in it's Max Max corrosion grey scheme ?
It would be a shame if they did paint her. I've run a 32mtr alu cat working vessel for over 15 yrs and delight in not ever paying for paint apart from anti foul. Scrub off the marks with an ali cleaner ever so often and save a fortune in both time and money. Go the shabby alu look.

Corrosion! what corrosion? its electrolysis which is the enemy, don't leave copper coins or spanners in the bilge:D
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It would be a shame if they did paint her. I've run a 32mtr alu cat working vessel for over 15 yrs and delight in not ever paying for paint apart from anti foul. Scrub off the marks with an ali cleaner ever so often and save a fortune in both time and money. Go the shabby alu look.

Corrosion! what corrosion? its electrolysis which is the enemy, don't leave copper coins or spanners in the bilge:D
Stainless steel water jets can cause an Al hull interesting problems as well re: LCS 2.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
It would be a shame if they did paint her. I've run a 32mtr alu cat working vessel for over 15 yrs and delight in not ever paying for paint apart from anti foul. Scrub off the marks with an ali cleaner ever so often and save a fortune in both time and money. Go the shabby alu look.

Corrosion! what corrosion? its electrolysis which is the enemy, don't leave copper coins or spanners in the bilge:D
I quite agree - you're even saving a little bit on topweight so what's not to like :) I keep hearing moans of horror from USN hands about how she looks is all.

Not being a sailor, to my eyes, Indy has a certain raffish charm :)
 

colay

New Member
Freedom's younger siblings will benefit from a more advanced waterjet design. Anyone know how waterjets compare vs. Conventional screws in terms of acoustic signature?

LCS May Achieve Greater Speeds With Help From New Waterjets - Technology News - redOrbit

LCS Propelled To Greater Speeds With New Waterjets
February 6, 2013


The Navy’s fifth Littoral Combat Ship (LCS), Milwaukee, will be the first to benefit from new high-power density waterjets aimed at staving off rudder and propeller damage experienced on high-speed ships..
 

db2646

Banned Member
It would be a shame if they did paint her. I've run a 32mtr alu cat working vessel for over 15 yrs and delight in not ever paying for paint apart from anti foul. Scrub off the marks with an ali cleaner ever so often and save a fortune in both time and money. Go the shabby alu look.

Corrosion! what corrosion? its electrolysis which is the enemy, don't leave copper coins or spanners in the bilge:D
I am sure you're just joking about the corrosion issue? Electrolysis equals Galvanic Corrosion in dissimilar materials.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I am sure you're just joking about the corrosion issue? Electrolysis equals Galvanic Corrosion in dissimilar materials.
Agree, but in the previous posts we were discussing the issue of painting or leaving bare, the topsides and ships sides. Surface oxidisation on these is almost negligable.

Totally different story from the danger of internal electrolysis whether that be from stray electical currents or from immersion in an electrolyte like bilge salt water
Cheers
 

Whitehead

New Member
So we can expect these to replace the current frigates in use? Also I heard that both designs could be stretched and built up into a "true" frigate sized warship. What do you think the odds are on that?
 

NeoIsolationist

New Member
So we can expect these to replace the current frigates in use? Also I heard that both designs could be stretched and built up into a "true" frigate sized warship. What do you think the odds are on that?
I understand the odds are pretty good. I hear the US and japan are teaming up to build a littoral combat vessel, based on the LCS-2 hull.

I am unable to post urls or links as I do not yet have 10 posts. If you google 'us japan joint littoral combat', you'll get plenty of links. When I pass the smell test, I'll post the urls. =)
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
I googled it and I only came up with 2 links which mention joint US/Japanese work on the LCS. Nothing else, nothing official or anything like that.

Even then, those links don't mention 'stretched' LCS-2 designs.

Personally, I wouldn't put money on seeing a stretched LCS design. The current LCS designs are already down to be a part of the solution of the USN FFG replacement, there's already 2 designs for the same job so I'm highly sceptical of any idea that the USN would bring another 1 (or 2) different designs.

Must emphasise, i've only been reading about the LCS fairly recently so I cannot speak about if Japan actually is working on it with the USN, from a quick google I come up with nothing much so i'm not convinced at the mo.
 

Whitehead

New Member
Found a link for it. Supposedly its Aegis equipped on a 3500 ton hull being offered by Lockheed. Can't post the link but I found it on marinelog.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Sounds very muck like the MMC displayed by LockMart at Euronaval 2012 based on the LCS-1 design, to my knowledge there has been not much interest in the concept either (well, not enough to be published as newsworthy anyway)

Lockheed Martin Unveils Its Multi-Mission Combatant For Navies Worldwide at Euronaval 2012
It's up to 3500 tons, Aegis, Mk41 etc etc

But earlier, you talk about using the LCS-2 hull which is the LCS design put forward by General Dynamics. The MMC is the 'export config' of the LCS from Lockheed Martin i'm used too but i've not seen anything to suggest a Lockheed Martin offering based on their competitors hull at all.

I'm on Marinelog's website, i'm searching various combinations of 'Japan, LCS, Littoral Combat Ship, Multi-Mission Combatant' and i'm getting nothing. Could you possibly PM me the link, I can't find it.
 

protoplasm

Active Member
This was out there a few years back, but I can't find the original brochure on the web now.

ww.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?105334-G-D-Showcase-LCS-Multi-Mission-Combatant]G D Showcase LCS Multi-Mission Combatant

Beyond a brochure I don't know where this concept went
 
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