Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[chis73]

Interesting RNZN history site

For those interested in reading some illuminating NZ Naval history this summer, I'd like to recommend the reports on this website, particularly the excerpts from the Naval Board reports between 1946 - 1965. Rarely do you see such candid remarks on the year-to-year running of a navy. After 1965, the excerpts change to the wider Defence Council reports - much more ministry-speak, and nary a contrary viewpoint on how well the Government is managing.

I hadn't really appreciated just how British the post-war RNZN was. A RNZN officer didn't make it on to the Naval Board until 1957 (Peter Phipps [later Sir], captain of the Bird-class minesweeper Moa during the war, later Rear-Admiral, CNS, CDF). Prior to that the leadership was all-RN (including 70-odd loan officers a year!).

The period from 1959 to 1965 - as the war-surplus vessels tire & the RNZN is forced to downsize in 1965 could just as well be talking about today's Navy (apart from the Reserve Fleet - yes you read that right! - which saved their bacon). The much-fabled ANZUS alliance barely rates a mention until the 1970s (following the British withdrawal from Singapore).

Chis73

 

[Gibbo]

Defence Force Rues Handling Of Job Losses | Stuff.co.nz

No surprises in the above - except for this rather alarming one-liner...


Defence boss Lieutenant-General Rhys Jones said yesterday he had big regrets ... And he admitted the Defence Force was now considering downsizing its naval fleet.

What is this the Govt & NZDF's idea of moving resources from the back-end to the front-end!?! What a crock of **** ! NZDF being consciously underfunded for it's future!

 

[ngatimozart]

Defence Force Rues Handling Of Job Losses | Stuff.co.nz

No surprises in the above - except for this rather alarming one-liner...


Defence boss Lieutenant-General Rhys Jones said yesterday he had big regrets ... And he admitted the Defence Force was now considering downsizing its naval fleet.

What is this the Govt & NZDF's idea of moving resources from the back-end to the front-end!?! What a crock of **** ! NZDF being consciously underfunded for it's future!

Don't get me started. Already had a rant on the NZDF thread. I think this'll be a major carbunkle on arse of the 2015 JATF. So what capabilities are they going to shaft. I suppose they may not replace the Endeavour with the JSS type vessel they were planning to. Or maybe pay off two of the IPCs? Or an OPV? Get rid of one or both of the frigates? It's really criminal stupidity when you think about it.

 

[Gibbo]

Don't get me started. Already had a rant on the NZDF thread. I think this'll be a major carbunkle on arse of the 2015 JATF. So what capabilities are they going to shaft. I suppose they may not replace the Endeavour with the JSS type vessel they were planning to. Or maybe pay off two of the IPCs? Or an OPV? Get rid of one or both of the frigates? It's really criminal stupidity when you think about it.

Yep totally agree - the Govt doesn't give a **** about defence (none has since early 1970's in my book) & NZDF top brass seem to be running around in ever decreasing circles! I'd guess they might be talking 2 x IPV's - certainly hope it's nothing more!

Hopefully 'considering' may be just that, hopefully they'll see sense & at worst tie them up & lock the front-door for a couple of years!

I can just imagine them giving away 2 x IPV's to the islands (who else is likely to want such low-end military vessels!?!) & singing their own praises about how they're helping the Pacific Nations to manage their own natural resources (copious amounts of smarmy spin all over it of course!). :gun

Crikey if Endeavour isn't replaced with a half-pie decent support vessel the whole concept of a JATF is completely f***ed!

 

[MrConservative]

Defence Force Rues Handling Of Job Losses | Stuff.co.nz

No surprises in the above - except for this rather alarming one-liner...


Defence boss Lieutenant-General Rhys Jones said yesterday he had big regrets ... And he admitted the Defence Force was now considering downsizing its naval fleet.

What is this the Govt & NZDF's idea of moving resources from the back-end to the front-end!?! What a crock of **** ! NZDF being consciously underfunded for it's future!

Problem was that no one realised (because no one anywhere near the issue had enough common sense) that by bungling the HR side of it would create such poor morale conditions that the front end would walk away as the back end were being chopped. Add into that the bungling of renumeration and housing during the same period, frustration with acquisition programs, over deployment, and of course constant under-funding.

I hold the position that Defence in the wider political and organisational sense has failed over the last 15 years with respect to leadership. Hensley was the decent leader who knew Defence from MOD or NZDF or Politics who had skin in the game.
I have serious doubts over the capability of the new Defence Sec - who is nothing more than a public service line manager promoted through the ranks. I also think that MFAT has also too much of a "sofening" tone politically around defence - that added with the Treasury goons forces the NZDF into the cul de sec it finds itself.

The CDF has regrets - wow - I hope his guilt made him say that and I hope the line about reducing the fleet was a deliberate shock tactic to raise the political temperature. Because if I was him I would be questioning the legacy that is going to be attached to his name as a CDF. They always get the blame in the end.

 

[Lucasnz]

I would tend to think that Manawanui would be the first to go given age / orphan status, crew could man one IPV and that OPV / IPV could perform 90% of the tasks.

It is clear that no one (Defence, National, Treasury) has learned any lessons from the early 1990's when they did something similar under the Peace Dividend. Realistically CDF has to take some of the blame given he commands and he didn't listen to some of the internal voices that appear to have raised alarms about how the NZDF was handling the issue (See AG report).

A thought - Maybe we need to go to fixed term engagements with limited right of early release to overcome this issue.

 

[ngatimozart]

I would tend to think that Manawanui would be the first to go given age / orphan status, crew could man one IPV and that OPV / IPV could perform 90% of the tasks.

It is clear that no one (Defence, National, Treasury) has learned any lessons from the early 1990's when they did something similar under the Peace Dividend. Realistically CDF has to take some of the blame given he commands and he didn't listen to some of the internal voices that appear to have raised alarms about how the NZDF was handling the issue (See AG report).

The OPV(s) in Littoral Warfare Roles would be about right because they fitted the Multibeam Echo Sounders and ancillary equipment from the Resolution on one or both of the OPVs last year. They could also fit both Tarapunga and Takapu on the OPVs fairly easily. I'd forgotten about Manawanui. With the IPVs why couldn't one be based at Lyttelton and let the RNZNVR Divisions Pegasus (Christchurch) and Toroa (Dunedin) crew them like they did with the Kiwi & Moa. The Reserves would have a ship to train on and they could provide crews for it to do ops like fisheries etc., like we did on Kiwi. Personally I think there needs to be a bit of a clean out at the top, stand fast Chief of Navy (newly appointed) and control of senior appointments needs to be taken away from the State Services Commission.

 

[Gibbo]

The OPV(s) in Littoral Warfare Roles would be about right because they fitted the Multibeam Echo Sounders and ancillary equipment from the Resolution on one or both of the OPVs last year. They could also fit both Tarapunga and Takapu on the OPVs fairly easily. I'd forgotten about Manawanui. With the IPVs why couldn't one be based at Lyttelton and let the RNZNVR Divisions Pegasus (Christchurch) and Toroa (Dunedin) crew them like they did with the Kiwi & Moa. The Reserves would have a ship to train on and they could provide crews for it to do ops like fisheries etc., like we did on Kiwi. Personally I think there needs to be a bit of a clean out at the top, stand fast Chief of Navy (newly appointed) and control of senior appointments needs to be taken away from the State Services Commission.

True OPV's could do the Littoral Warfare Support although they'd miss the specific diving support functionality that Manawanui offers (primarily excellent 4-point mooring; chamber; & diving bell & davit).

OPV's weight limitations prevent too much new gear being added too.

Are Tarapunga and Takapu at DNB yet?

 

[LRate]

I think reduced naval fleet comment has been misinterpreted its more to,do with reduced output rather than reduced number of hulls.
NZ being a maritime nation 99% of NZs trade travels by sea and
has the fourth largest exclusive economic zone (EEZ) in the world, covering 3.8 million square km with a maritime jurisdiction up to 24 times the size of our land area. That's 4% of NZ land mass and 96% sea lanes.
Going on those figures if the NZDF needed to make cuts I would think the bean counters would look at the land component.
Plus I don't think Jack Steer would allow it on his watch.

 

[chis73]

Phew, some activity at last. I was beginning to wonder if my last post was a thread-stopper!

Like everyone else, I'm worried by the CDF's comment. If the fleet gets any smaller they will have to bust Chief of Navy (RA Steer) back down to Commodore! Like Lucasnz, I would assume the CDF would be thinking about deep-sixing the Littoral Warfare Support Vessel and giving it's jobs to the OPVs (as if they don't have enough to do). I can't believe they would consider selling off the brand new IPVs. Better to mothball them. Giving them to the Pacific Forum nations I don't think would work - they struggle to keep their current boats at sea.

The vessels used previously for hydrographic survey were certainly not much better than the OPVs. For example, Monowai & Lachlan both had nothing-special commercial grade engines. Resolution was a better class (& had diesel electric propulsion) but half of it's job was to replace the oceanographic (read sonar) research vessel Tui. I suspect the hours contracted for hydrographic work have been cut back to the point where a dedicated vessel isn't feasible.

Regarding farming out the IPVs to the RNZNVR, I think the IPVs may be a little too much for them to handle (except perhaps in Auckland, where you have a much bigger population to draw on, and nearby support from the naval base). I would like to see the RNZNVR with something though (perhaps more HDML size, like they used to have, that could do basic seamanship training and ceremonial functions).

RA Steer was asking in the last Navy Today for ideas on what to do. One idea that crossed my mind was to make much more use of Wellington harbour. Say, by basing 2 IPVs there regularly. Wellington's waterfront is a prime location - a great opportunity to put the navy right in the face of the politicians. Ideally, Queen's wharf would be the spot. Perhaps move & co-locate HMNZS Olphert to a new facility on the waterfront [1]. Alternatively, Shelly Bay (although sold off) seems little used & vacant at present. They used to operate HDMLs from there.

Chis73

[1] Anybody know why HMNZS Olphert is where it is? It's well back from the waterfront. Maybe it was the old General Staff Headquarters ???

 

[RegR]

A thought - Maybe we need to go to fixed term engagements with limited right of early release to overcome this issue.

Not sure if this would work as it would make people think alot harder before actually joining due to the long term commitment involved especially those on the fence contemplating a military career. Some join the military reluctantly and then find that it is actually for them and go on to become fine productive members while others watch too many movies, join, struggle to adjust and turn out too be sacks and pretty much just take up space, and do we really want people who do not want to be there anymore hanging around dragging others down with them? Thats the problem with the morale in the NZDF now, too many are down and its domino effecting.

As it is service personnel need to provide 3 months notice (earlier under special circumstances) and this does go someway into disuading people from leaving as most civi jobs are not keen on waiting for that long from the word go, therefore service pers sometimes have to take a gamble and may find themselves in limbo for awhile if they decide to get out then look for other employment.

Some are also getting out now before they become 'stuck' because as a unit reaches critical manning it becomes alot harder to gain release in certain areas, only adding to the problem. All service people have a period after release that they can be re-called if any situation warrents, as in quite a serious situation, so I wonder if these capability shortages are considered serious enough?

 

[Volkodav]

Phew, some activity at last. I was beginning to wonder if my last post was a thread-stopper!

Like everyone else, I'm worried by the CDF's comment. If the fleet gets any smaller they will have to bust Chief of Navy (RA Steer) back down to Commodore! Like Lucasnz, I would assume the CDF would be thinking about deep-sixing the Littoral Warfare Support Vessel and giving it's jobs to the OPVs (as if they don't have enough to do). I can't believe they would consider selling off the brand new IPVs. Better to mothball them. Giving them to the Pacific Forum nations I don't think would work - they struggle to keep their current boats at sea.

The vessels used previously for hydrographic survey were certainly not much better than the OPVs. For example, Monowai & Lachlan both had nothing-special commercial grade engines. Resolution was a better class (& had diesel electric propulsion) but half of it's job was to replace the oceanographic (read sonar) research vessel Tui. I suspect the hours contracted for hydrographic work have been cut back to the point where a dedicated vessel isn't feasible.

Regarding farming out the IPVs to the RNZNVR, I think the IPVs may be a little too much for them to handle (except perhaps in Auckland, where you have a much bigger population to draw on, and nearby support from the naval base). I would like to see the RNZNVR with something though (perhaps more HDML size, like they used to have, that could do basic seamanship training and ceremonial functions).

RA Steer was asking in the last Navy Today for ideas on what to do. One idea that crossed my mind was to make much more use of Wellington harbour. Say, by basing 2 IPVs there regularly. Wellington's waterfront is a prime location - a great opportunity to put the navy right in the face of the politicians. Ideally, Queen's wharf would be the spot. Perhaps move & co-locate HMNZS Olphert to a new facility on the waterfront [1]. Alternatively, Shelly Bay (although sold off) seems little used & vacant at present. They used to operate HDMLs from there.

Chis73

[1] Anybody know why HMNZS Olphert is where it is? It's well back from the waterfront. Maybe it was the old General Staff Headquarters ???

For the reserves why not use simulator training and fly in fly out for actual deployments with multiple crews around the country maning one or two IPVs in conjunction with a regular cadre.

 

[ngatimozart]

Phew, some activity at last. I was beginning to wonder if my last post was a thread-stopper!

Like everyone else, I'm worried by the CDF's comment. If the fleet gets any smaller they will have to bust Chief of Navy (RA Steer) back down to Commodore! Like Lucasnz, I would assume the CDF would be thinking about deep-sixing the Littoral Warfare Support Vessel and giving it's jobs to the OPVs (as if they don't have enough to do). I can't believe they would consider selling off the brand new IPVs. Better to mothball them. Giving them to the Pacific Forum nations I don't think would work - they struggle to keep their current boats at sea.

The vessels used previously for hydrographic survey were certainly not much better than the OPVs. For example, Monowai & Lachlan both had nothing-special commercial grade engines. Resolution was a better class (& had diesel electric propulsion) but half of it's job was to replace the oceanographic (read sonar) research vessel Tui. I suspect the hours contracted for hydrographic work have been cut back to the point where a dedicated vessel isn't feasible.

Regarding farming out the IPVs to the RNZNVR, I think the IPVs may be a little too much for them to handle (except perhaps in Auckland, where you have a much bigger population to draw on, and nearby support from the naval base). I would like to see the RNZNVR with something though (perhaps more HDML size, like they used to have, that could do basic seamanship training and ceremonial functions).

RA Steer was asking in the last Navy Today for ideas on what to do. One idea that crossed my mind was to make much more use of Wellington harbour. Say, by basing 2 IPVs there regularly. Wellington's waterfront is a prime location - a great opportunity to put the navy right in the face of the politicians. Ideally, Queen's wharf would be the spot. Perhaps move & co-locate HMNZS Olphert to a new facility on the waterfront [1]. Alternatively, Shelly Bay (although sold off) seems little used & vacant at present. They used to operate HDMLs from there.

Chis73

[1] Anybody know why HMNZS Olphert is where it is? It's well back from the waterfront. Maybe it was the old General Staff Headquarters ???

I suggested Pegasus and Toroa because both Divisions were able to crew a Moa class IPC each regularly, especially Pegasus. Ngaponga in Auckland apparently had trouble finding crews and a general lack of enthusiasm according to my brother who was in Ngaponga Division. If Shelly Bay was to be used the wharvess would have to be rebuilt, especially the outer one. When I was there (79 - 81) the outer wharf was off limits due to pile (wooden) damage by rot. A couple had been completely eroded through by rot at water level. So 30 years later be the rot holding the wharf up. Navy will never buy a HDML type vessel for the Reserves.

 

[htbrst]

I don't have much to add to the brilliant discussion above, but there has been a small update on the acquisition of the ex-RAN Seasprites

New Zealand considers Super Seasprite helicopters for navy requirement

Looks like there will be some more concrete news soon, though i'm not sure that the message of "need to downsize the Navy slightly" is a good match politically with "we need to expand the Naval Helicopter force"

 

[Lucasnz]

I suggested Pegasus and Toroa because both Divisions were able to crew a Moa class IPC each regularly, especially Pegasus. Ngaponga in Auckland apparently had trouble finding crews and a general lack of enthusiasm according to my brother who was in Ngaponga Division. If Shelly Bay was to be used the wharvess would have to be rebuilt, especially the outer one. When I was there (79 - 81) the outer wharf was off limits due to pile (wooden) damage by rot. A couple had been completely eroded through by rot at water level. So 30 years later be the rot holding the wharf up. Navy will never buy a HDML type vessel for the Reserves.

The latest navy today showed the VR training on the IPV and OPV. Maybe the shortage has forced the issue. The Minister in a letter described it like this:

Extensive training is required for Naval Reservists to reach the required level to fill an Inshore Patrol Vessel Complement post which is not possible for most personnel with civilian employment commitments.

I fully agree that Pegasus and Toroa should control the vessel if the VR ever get there hands on one.

 

[t68]

I don't have much to add to the brilliant discussion above, but there has been a small update on the acquisition of the ex-RAN Seasprites

New Zealand considers Super Seasprite helicopters for navy requirement

Looks like there will be some more concrete news soon, though i'm not sure that the message of "need to downsize the Navy slightly" is a good match politically with "we need to expand the Naval Helicopter force"

If it does go ahead and is the preferred solution, what are they planning on doing with the avionics side of things, will RNZN require them to be of the same standards as the current fleet or persevere with the intension of making them work in RAN standards?

 

[ngatimozart]

If it does go ahead and is the preferred solution, what are they planning on doing with the avionics side of things, will RNZN require them to be of the same standards as the current fleet or persevere with the intension of making them work in RAN standards?

It will depend upon what is decided by Treasury, the State Services Commission and the Ministry for Foreign Affairs and Trade since they all seem to have a lot of say about what happens in NZDF. The State Services Commission run the Public Service and a certain Prime Minister who got rid of the Skyhawks made an order that the State Services Commission will determine high level military appointments and promotions of senior officers.

 

[htbrst]

If it does go ahead and is the preferred solution, what are they planning on doing with the avionics side of things, will RNZN require them to be of the same standards as the current fleet or persevere with the intension of making them work in RAN standards?

That will be interesting to find out. Initially the NZ Seasprites were supposed to be used by only a two person crew as intended on the Australian versions, but that was quickly changed when they found that there was not too much space to move around for one of them to get the winch etc so I suspect they will stay with a 3 person crew.

Are there many equipment differences between the SH-2(NZ) and SH-2(AU) to justify this purchase as 'the' mid-life upgrade - i.e. better Radar, FLIR etc ? Or is it simply about the improved cockpit and man-machine interface?

 

[Richo99]

If it does go ahead and is the preferred solution, what are they planning on doing with the avionics side of things, will RNZN require them to be of the same standards as the current fleet or persevere with the intension of making them work in RAN standards?

I thought that the 11 'aussie' seasprites would essentially replace the existing 5 as operational aircraft, with the latter only being used for training and/or a source of spare parts. If this were the case identical avionics suites wouldn't really be necessary. Would think it highly unlikely that the RNZAF either need or could afford to have all 16 aircraft operational

 

[observer99]

Hi,
I'm not sure if it's okay to ask basic "interested in joining" questions. Apologies & feel free to ignore / delete / point me elsewhere as appropriate

I am a male undergrad university student (compsci / stats) who's interested in the Auckland MTO branch of the Navy Reserves.

Reading over the last 20 or so pages here (& the news), it seems that budget cuts and redundancies are hitting the RNZN fairly hard lately? i'm wondering if this situation applies to the Reserves, and specifically how it's affecting recruitment

Ultimately i'm trying to get some up to date info into how much competition / demand there is currently for MTO positions (or just Reserves in general).

For instance, would an inexperienced student have a shot, or does the MTO tend to only consider people with actual employment experience in (non military) maritime / management / trade roles?

Cheers