Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[LRate]

Quite interesting reading about views for the armament for the OPVs,Im no weapon tech but I think the OPV's and CY are replacing the MSI 25 mm mount with a 25mm Rafeal Typhoon mount and optical fire control.Basically a 25mm is all that's required from an OPV.
As per the recent RNZN Anzac frigate self defence media release stated the OPVs as "non combat ships" therefore a 25mm main armament is suffice for the taskings it's designed to perform.
It's good to see the NZ government backing a self defence and sensor upgrade for the frigates , great news for the Naval combat force.
As for the SH2G(I)'s hopefully that gets the axe in favour of SH70B or like aircraft avoiding an orphan fleet .

 

[Lucasnz]

Quite interesting reading about views for the armament for the OPVs,Im no weapon tech but I think the OPV's and CY are replacing the MSI 25 mm mount with a 25mm Rafeal Typhoon mount and optical fire control.Basically a 25mm is all that's required from an OPV.
As per the recent RNZN Anzac frigate self defence media release stated the OPVs as "non combat ships" therefore a 25mm main armament is suffice for the taskings it's designed to perform.
It's good to see the NZ government backing a self defence and sensor upgrade for the frigates , great news for the Naval combat force.
As for the SH2G(I)'s hopefully that gets the axe in favour of SH70B or like aircraft avoiding an orphan fleet .

IMHO the need for the SH2G(I) is partly an issue around the size of the OPV flight. deck. Short of buying marinsed A109, NZ options appear limited.

 

[ngatimozart]

IMHO the need for the SH2G(I) is partly an issue around the size of the OPV flight. deck. Short of buying marinsed A109, NZ options appear limited.

IIRC the OPV hangars are same size as ANZAC Frigates and I think if need be the flight decks could be lengthened but that would be a big job and would involve rearrangement of some functions on the quarterdeck. In the latest Air Force News mention is made that 6 Sqn have either acquired or gained access to the RN Lynx simulator and it has been validated for providing critical emergency and crew resource management training. This is because the USN SH2 simulator was decommissioned in 2010. I have also heard from elsewhere that the announcement regarding the SH2G(I) will be made sometime early 2013.

 

[ngatimozart]

Quite interesting reading about views for the armament for the OPVs,Im no weapon tech but I think the OPV's and CY are replacing the MSI 25 mm mount with a 25mm Rafeal Typhoon mount and optical fire control.Basically a 25mm is all that's required from an OPV.
As per the recent RNZN Anzac frigate self defence media release stated the OPVs as "non combat ships" therefore a 25mm main armament is suffice for the taskings it's designed to perform.
It's good to see the NZ government backing a self defence and sensor upgrade for the frigates , great news for the Naval combat force.
As for the SH2G(I)'s hopefully that gets the axe in favour of SH70B or like aircraft avoiding an orphan fleet .

We've already got an orphan fleet and the SH2(I) would just be going from one orphan to another. The main reason we have the problems with the Seaspriteis because of its orphan status and Kamans lack of support. So continuing with the Seasprite leaves us open to the same set of problems. However the NZG, especially the current one, is really adverse to spending money, especially on Defence. So in reality the pollies will go with the cheapest option, or not do anything about it if they can possibly get away of it.

As for looking at and discussing some of these ideas... I have the unfortunate feeling that the NZDF is being (or perhaps has been) setup for falling off another financial cliff by Gov't. Again. .... Unfortunately I suspect the costs for that will be a bit much for the NZDF to handle all at once if the budgeting is like it currently is now. This might be easier to bear if some of the vessels get replaced a little earlier.

I think that too. Unfortunately IMHO I feel that both the major political parties have, and continue to, set up NZDF to be ultimately deleted as a viable unit therefore "saving" govt expenditure in their world view, but it will be at the expense of NZs sovereignity.

 

[RegR]

Quite interesting reading about views for the armament for the OPVs,Im no weapon tech but I think the OPV's and CY are replacing the MSI 25 mm mount with a 25mm Rafeal Typhoon mount and optical fire control.Basically a 25mm is all that's required from an OPV.
As per the recent RNZN Anzac frigate self defence media release stated the OPVs as "non combat ships" therefore a 25mm main armament is suffice for the taskings it's designed to perform.
It's good to see the NZ government backing a self defence and sensor upgrade for the frigates , great news for the Naval combat force.
As for the SH2G(I)'s hopefully that gets the axe in favour of SH70B or like aircraft avoiding an orphan fleet .

I thought CY was getting mini-typhoons above the bridge complementing the 25mm it already has? Can you link the article? Would be a good investment for the OPVs as well I suppose, alittle more firepower but still not overboard(pun intended).

As for the naval fleet I would love to see a mix of MH60Rs/Ss for the combat/support vessels respectively and yes would be alittle too large, top heavy and overkill for the OPVs so therefore a couple of marinised A109s as MHs would be a waste for most of the OPVs tasks envisaged, a like helo capability for a like ship capability. Keeping with these models would also keep our fleets at the same amount of types and provide flow between 3 and 6 Sqn so no major change from now.

The 11 new(ish) seasprites will solve some problems but others will still remain therefore depends how much govt wants to spend in the short term or spend in the long term, either way could prove expensive regardless.

 

[1805]

Do people with local knowledge of the political landscape, feel there is any possibility that the ANZACs will not be replaced directly with frigates. I know this has been debated at length, but the focus has been generally on what type of frigates, however is there a chance it will end up being 2-3 upgunned OPVs. Would there be a public outcry; was there over the loss of the fixed wing attack aircraft?

 

[Volkodav]

I wonder how much life the RANs current SH60Bs have and whether they could be an option for the RNZN? The key would be get in quick and secure a training and support deal with the RAN as they convert to the Romeo, that could be progressively migrated to NZ.

Its a shame NZ doesn't have the money or the political will because an obvious option would be to replace the ANZACs early, selling them on to a third party. What to replace them with, how about a pair of batch 2 AWDs should Australia order a fourth hull. Pricey but still a lott cheaper than the RAN had to pay for each of the first three. Then again with the dire straights Spain is in maybe NZ could make on offer on a pair of second hand F-100s.

 

[t68]

I wonder how much life the RANs current SH60Bs have and whether they could be an option for the RNZN? The key would be get in quick and secure a training and support deal with the RAN as they convert to the Romeo, that could be progressively migrated to NZ.

Its a shame NZ doesn't have the money or the political will because an obvious option would be to replace the ANZACs early, selling them on to a third party. What to replace them with, how about a pair of batch 2 AWDs should Australia order a fourth hull. Pricey but still a lott cheaper than the RAN had to pay for each of the first three. Then again with the dire straights Spain is in maybe NZ could make on offer on a pair of second hand F-100s.

And SPS Cantabria (A15) if the RAN lets here go she might not make it back to Spain.:gun:gun

 

[LRate]

I thought CY was getting mini-typhoons above the bridge complementing the 25mm it already has? Can you link the article? Would be a good investment for the OPVs as well I suppose, alittle more firepower but still not overboard(pun intended).

As for the naval fleet I would love to see a mix of MH60Rs/Ss for the combat/support vessels respectively and yes would be alittle too large, top heavy and overkill for the OPVs so therefore a couple of marinised A109s as MHs would be a waste for most of the OPVs tasks envisaged, a like helo capability for a like ship capability. Keeping with these models would also keep our fleets at the same amount of types and provide flow between 3 and 6 Sqn so no major change from now.


The 11 new(ish) seasprites will solve some problems but others will still remain therefore depends how much govt wants to spend in the short term or spend in the long term, either way could prove expensive regardless.

Not to sure on the mini typhoons for CY but I think the current 25mm MSI mounts will be replaced 25mm rafeal mount like the mounts the Ozzie Armidale class.
Heard read somewhere of CIWS for CY a few years ago don't know what happened with that idea maybe it got shelved. Could do with some soft kill decoys like Terma SKWS shouldn't be to hard or costly to mount.
I agree on the purchase of costly MH60R/S models maybe 4 airframes parts and spares for 400 million and extra A109E models for OPVs.
Investing money now avoids the eventual expensive replacement in 15 years time when the SH2G(I) are due for retirement.

 

[LRate]

Not to sure on the mini typhoons for CY but I think the current 25mm MSI mounts will be replaced 25mm rafeal mount like the mounts the Ozzie Armidale class.
Heard read somewhere of a CIWS mount for CY a few years ago don't know what happened with that idea maybe it got shelved. CY could do with some soft kill decoys like Terma SKWS shouldn't be to hard or costly to mount.

I agree on the purchase of expensive MH60R/S models , maybe 4 airframes parts and spares for 400 million and extra A109E models for OPVs.
Investing money now avoids the eventual expensive replacement in 15 years time when the SH2G(I) are due for retirement.

With the RNZN ANZAC upgrade it will be interesting so see what's in the package will it be the full ISR upgrade ASW towed array , 3D radar, extra FCR , gun upgrade, C2 system ?, what will replace the NSSM eg semi active ESSM or more advanced smart fully active missiles like seaceptor planned for type 23s and 26s?.

 

[icelord]

Not to sure on the mini typhoons for CY but I think the current 25mm MSI mounts will be replaced 25mm rafeal mount like the mounts the Ozzie Armidale class.
Heard read somewhere of a CIWS mount for CY a few years ago don't know what happened with that idea maybe it got shelved. CY could do with some soft kill decoys like Terma SKWS shouldn't be to hard or costly to mount.

I agree on the purchase of expensive MH60R/S models , maybe 4 airframes parts and spares for 400 million and extra A109E models for OPVs.
Investing money now avoids the eventual expensive replacement in 15 years time when the SH2G(I) are due for retirement.

With the RNZN ANZAC upgrade it will be interesting so see what's in the package will it be the full ISR upgrade ASW towed array , 3D radar, extra FCR , gun upgrade, C2 system ?, what will replace the NSSM eg semi active ESSM or more advanced smart fully active missiles like seaceptor planned for type 23s and 26s?.

The CIWS has been spoken of for canterbury since she came in, but they dont plan to have her in a situation where one is required, without a Anzac or allied support. The kiws plan to use here around the pacific for assistance more then middle east...

There is no point of the RNZN replacing the SH2G for at least 10 years, they are operational, pilots are qualified and the systems in place. The MH60R is set to be in the US Military battle order for at least 40years, so if they want to use them in a few years then they will still be getting built, and even then they have the MH-90 now, so the NH90 would make more sense in bringing the airframes into less units, so privately im thinking the kiwis were devo that we went romeos.

And SPS Cantabria (A15) if the RAN lets here go she might not make it back to Spain.

HANDS OFF, we got first dibs!

 

[ngatimozart]

I agree on the purchase of expensive MH60R/S models , maybe 4 airframes parts and spares for 400 million and extra A109E models for OPVs.
Investing money now avoids the eventual expensive replacement in 15 years time when the SH2G(I) are due for retirement.

Four airframes? You'd have worse availability problems than have with munted SH2G(NZ)s now. Four airframes would give you one, possibly two available immediately operational, one or maybe two for training and light maintenance and one in deep maintenace. Excluding the OPVs there are at present four flight decks, 2 x FFH, CTY and Endeavour. Ok not all are at sea at the same time but RNZN / 6 Sqn would need six airframes. If you include OPVs another airframe, but am unsure whether or not MH60R would fit on OPV. Another helo that could be a viable option now is the Wildcat. The thing is if we were to order now the MH60R is that it could be three years or more before we receive them depending on the number of orders. IIRC Demanrk has just ordered nine. The only way we could jump the queue is if the USN allowed us some of their slots.

At present point in time NZDF simply doesn't have the cash to buy Romeos or Wildcats. They have to replace Endeavour in the near - medium term plus other projects which have been funded. These have to be paid out of existing funds. The current NZG has stated that it will not give NZG any injections of capital expenditure.

 

[KiwiRob]

Ngati I though they didn't use the flight deck on Endeavor?

 

[RegR]

Yes the current Endeavour only uses its flight deck for vertrep, storage, sunbathing etc as it is not rated for seasprite+ however Endeavour II on the other hand should have a large deck if it is to have semi-MRV status.

If we lock into SH2G(I) we are really only extending our current problems, minus availability and to a degree spares, so is it really worth continueing to throw money into the pit? maybe maybe not.

If I was a numbers man and we went MH60s, I would go 3 Rs and 3 Ss to cover outputs, availability, maintanence and training. Simulator time in Aus could also be purchased. 2 marinised A109s (from the future extra 3) could cover the OPVs as and when needed to transition from 3 Sqn and keep fleet types down, otherwise as has been stated a whole new (mid sized) fleet to cover all.

Just bacause there is currently no extra funding govt needs to look at costs now and in the future otherwise it may not actually be VFM, even if they did buy the 11 internationals that is more money spent so may as well get some bang for our buck if/when we can before we commit to the future.

 

[icelord]

Considering the ease in which the NZ Govt picked up a MRH-90, then surely a NH90 would be most likely on the cards for a better price. If they went through europe again and had them built there, and delievered that would avoid any issues or possible delays as there are starting to production line them for european navies.

Theres no point in going another different airframe when you have one that is miles ahead of others. I wont go into the drawbacks of adding onto the Aus line, as we are going MH-90 not NH90, so slight differences but still...

As has been mentioned, getting a endevour II is priority for the RNZN, and ensuring all their ships get fully manned, funded and to sea would be better then worrying about helos that only go on ships that sail, so you need something to get off the wharf before you worry about what will fly off it

 

[ngatimozart]

Considering the ease in which the NZ Govt picked up a MRH-90, then surely a NH90 would be most likely on the cards for a better price. If they went through europe again and had them built there, and delievered that would avoid any issues or possible delays as there are starting to production line them for european navies.

Theres no point in going another different airframe when you have one that is miles ahead of others. I wont go into the drawbacks of adding onto the Aus line, as we are going MH-90 not NH90, so slight differences but still...

As has been mentioned, getting a endevour II is priority for the RNZN, and ensuring all their ships get fully manned, funded and to sea would be better then worrying about helos that only go on ships that sail, so you need something to get off the wharf before you worry about what will fly off it

The NH90NFH (Nato Frigate Helicopter)? The eight NH90TTH plus the CDK airframe cost NZ$770 million, although it would make sense with the NH90NFH as long as Nato Helicopters pull their finger out and sort their s*** out with regard to the NFH production delays which seem never ending at present. A combination of NFH and marinised AW109s would give the NZDF two rotary wing types with two sub-types each. However money is the thing and Endeavour replacement is important.

Although purchase of the SH2G(I) is not chiselled in stone and what is Plan B if it is determined that these aircraft are not suitable for what ever purpose? Then decisions regarding the SH2G(NZ) will have to be made and it has been shown that they are no longer value for money. Do they do a MLU which will be both time consuming and expensive, throwing good money after bad; or replace with - what?

 

[RegR]

Considering the ease in which the NZ Govt picked up a MRH-90, then surely a NH90 would be most likely on the cards for a better price. If they went through europe again and had them built there, and delievered that would avoid any issues or possible delays as there are starting to production line them for european navies.

Theres no point in going another different airframe when you have one that is miles ahead of others. I wont go into the drawbacks of adding onto the Aus line, as we are going MH-90 not NH90, so slight differences but still...

As has been mentioned, getting a endevour II is priority for the RNZN, and ensuring all their ships get fully manned, funded and to sea would be better then worrying about helos that only go on ships that sail, so you need something to get off the wharf before you worry about what will fly off it

I would'nt exactly call the proces we went through to get NH90 easy. They cost more then originally budgeted, took(taking) longer to get them in country then planned and are still going through teething problems so not quite sure what your thoughts are here as they are yet to even make it to the 'easy' basket.

Although it would simplify everything having a common TTH/NFH base model we would be in exactly the same boat as Aus and would have the same reasons why we would opt for MH60s over NFH90s at this stage ie not fully capable, unproven, delays etc. The only thing we have on our side currently is time as in time for the issues that initially precluded NFH90 from RAN selection to be rectified but even that time is limited, unless of course we go with the extra sprites which would buy 10-15 more years, then surely NFH will be sorted as I assume our NH90s will be in due course but at what cost?

Rotary wing wise in this category we are actually quite alike and in true ANZAC fashion have gone down very similar paths including types (albeit on proportionally different scales), therefore it would be in our best interest to at least take into account our neighbours findings, decisions and outcomes.

BTW it is the aussies who designate it MRH-90 not us but tomatos tomatos.

 

[ngatimozart]

I wonder how much life the RANs current SH60Bs have and whether they could be an option for the RNZN? The key would be get in quick and secure a training and support deal with the RAN as they convert to the Romeo, that could be progressively migrated to NZ.

Think they are pretty munted aren't they, so we'd be swapping one munted lot for another munted lot.

Its a shame NZ doesn't have the money or the political will because an obvious option would be to replace the ANZACs early, selling them on to a third party. What to replace them with, how about a pair of batch 2 AWDs should Australia order a fourth hull. Pricey but still a lott cheaper than the RAN had to pay for each of the first three. Then again with the dire straights Spain is in maybe NZ could make on offer on a pair of second hand F-100s.

The NZG wouldn't go for the Hobart class destroyers because they wouldn't meet the needs of the NZDF. They are to specialised and expensive. The Spanish F100s are similar as they appear to be primarily designed for air defence. I think that the RNZN is after a more GP frigate that incorporates very good ASW and AsuW suites. Three would be far better than two. But the idea of replacing the two ANZACs early does have merit and a GP version of the F100 would be interesting. It would make sense as it's a relatively new and proven design plus it would tick the box of commonality of with Australia.

 

[12BotG]

Just started reading through this thread, so apologies if asked already.

Considering NZ navy would be operating within a foreign battle group (in a hostile environment), wouldn't the ANZAC's would be better off converting to dedicated ASW role (fitting towed array etc) rather than fitting harpoons and providing AShM capabilities?

 

[ngatimozart]

Just started reading through this thread, so apologies if asked already.

Considering NZ navy would be operating within a foreign battle group (in a hostile environment), wouldn't the ANZAC's would be better off converting to dedicated ASW role (fitting towed array etc) rather than fitting harpoons and providing AShM capabilities?

The RNZN doesn't always operate in an allied naval group. It is also required to operate unilaterally. The NZDF is realigning towards a Joint Amphibious Task Force which will operate as part of multinational group and unilaterally as required, therefore an ASuW as well as an ASW capbility plus an air self defence ability is required.