The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[gf0012-aust]

The RN should consider purchasing some type 214 submarines, which compared to Nuclear boats which I served on are very cheap and need only a crew of 28-30, they are extremely quiet and can stay submerged for up to 16 days and are ideal for coastal work. The USN has chatered one initially for a year and now extended for a 2nd year(The Gotland) to try and work out a defense against this type of submarine, so far with little sucess.I have been involved with the 3 type 214's building in Greece for 5 years and I find them very impressive in both quietness and diving depth.

You might want to revisit your claims - there's a whole pile of factually incorrect material in your post.

and before you get defensive - there are 4-5 ex submariners in DT, there are probably a similar number who are ex/curr industry and who have a close association with building subs.

on top of that, some of us have actually worked on a firsthand basis with the boats you're waxing lyrical on

As per Bonza's comment, you need to moxy up with some proof of your priors, because your current commentary in some areas is a direct contradiction of what some of us do know about subs

 

[StobieWan]

In any event, the RN doesn't need coastal defence subs. If we had a few quid spare, we'd have another Astute for sure but buying in a new class of SSK's doesn't make any sense.

 

[swerve]

...
My fascination about an AAW variant - apart from acting like a missile truck piggypacking off a T45 with CEC - is just to give it some standing compared to FREMM....
.
This'll mostly be aimed at Brazil, IIRC BAE presented a package to Brazil including a variant of the Wave class tailored to their needs and the Type 26. Most probably France/Italy made a corresponding offer with FREMM/FREDA/some type of replenishment vessel from Fincantieri.

If Brazil wants to become at least regional military power, then chances are they'd want some class of AAW vessel and that could potentially give the FREMM package the edge.

Agreed. Brazil, & perhaps other potential customers, is unlikely to be content with ships capable only of local air defence. If you're operating aircraft carriers or the like, you want something to defend them.

From what I've read, I think France & Italy have made separate offers for their own versions of FREMM. The Italians have Sylver A50 on all theirs, IIRC, & the MFRA active version of EMPAR will go on the 5th & subsequent ships.

 

[RobWilliams]

Exactly, as it stands FREMM offers a more complete package to Brazil than Type 26. But we won't know for sure until 2015, but then there'll roughly be ~6 FREMM in service in a variety of flavours.

Although come to think of it, IIRC the plan is to start cutting steel in 2016 so pretty much less than 4 years. Meaning that - chances are - the design will be finalised in 2015? Hopefully the Brazilians can cope with their current frigates until then.

 

[StobieWan]

Exactly, as it stands FREMM offers a more complete package to Brazil than Type 26. But we won't know for sure until 2015, but then there'll roughly be ~6 FREMM in service in a variety of flavours.

Although come to think of it, IIRC the plan is to start cutting steel in 2016 so pretty much less than 4 years. Meaning that - chances are - the design will be finalised in 2015? Hopefully the Brazilians can cope with their current frigates until then.

FREMM has the major advantage in that there's something to show as well - there's a ship in the water, you can walk around one - that helps form an impression. Flipside of that, Brazil can have much more of an input to Type 26 and could presumably get a fair chunk of domestic feed-in where feasible.

FREMM also comes with a more complete package from the French in that it's been offered with the trimmings of sub design and amphib build too. Fincantieri have been roped in to provide some input for their carrier replacement as well I think - so good links with existing industry that lead them into things they want to do.

I suspect we're not capable of offering such a comprehensive package but we'll know more later.

Interestingly, Turkey has just revived a plan to build four frigates - they did knock Type 26 back very firmly earlier, but maybe they'll have a look again at the bidders ?

 

[RobWilliams]

Absolutely, which means one really has to pin hopes on that they'll be sufficiently impressed when the nearly finished design comes out in 2015. IIRC their current stock of frigates are of British origin or have large amounts of British input so they may buy British again if they're sufficiently 'impressed' by what they have in terms of what they want it to do.

The last I heard in that respect was that they asked for information requests from "European shipyards", personally I reckon they'll go with what DCNS is offering.

I doubt Turkey would go back, IIRC the reason they chucked the T26 in was that their specifications and those of the RN were 'too different' to produce a design which both were sufficiently impressed by.

Although wasn't that release made before BAE released their latest designs + figures?

 

[swerve]

IIRC their current stock of frigates are of British origin or have large amounts of British input ...

All ten frigates (including one training frigate) in the Brazilian navy are British designed & either British built or built under licence.

4.5" guns on most, Seawolf on three, Olympus/Tyne/Spey GTs, Lynx helicopters . . .


[edit]
Six modified Leanders (licence built) plus an almost unarmed one for training, & three ex-RN Type 22s.

 

[RobWilliams]

Ah I see, thanks for the info!

Well then, in that case things look a bit more interesting. They might fancy the T26 more considering that the RN is looking to replace most - if not all - of those systems with those on the T26 with - in RN eyes - better systems.

Veeeeery interesting indeed.

 

[StobieWan]

Possibly they may already have good links with the RN developed in the support and handover of the various ships they have - and their most recent purchase was the three OPV's from BAE. You never know, if there's a useful ship on offer we might be in with a chance.

They do have Corvettes built with assistance from a German yard however so they're not totally averse to using non-UK sources.

 

[RobWilliams]

Not long till the end now

Duncan done as last Type 45 completes sea trials | Royal Navy

The sixth and last Type 45 destroyer has successfully completed her second spell of sea trials, paving the way for her handover to the Navy in the spring. HMS Duncan has returned to Scotstoun on the Clyde after three weeks of tests and trials off the west coast of Scotland which concentrated on her combat systems

ON A grey winter’s day, HMS Duncan makes her way up the Clyde after completing her second – and final – period of sea trials off the west coast of Scotland.

The sixth and last Type 45 destroyer has returned to Scotstoun for final fitting out and tests, having spent the best part of the last three weeks flashing up her combat systems and communications equipment.

Won't be long now, Defender is due to be declared operational early next year so Duncan (still can't get over that name) probably early 2014?

So what's the status on all the T45s now? Daring + Dauntless are back in the UK, Diomond is in the Gulf but returning soon I think, Dragon must be operational but due to be deployed next year (replacing Diamond?)

 

[StobieWan]

Dammit, but 8 would have been really nice. Six are going to be flogged senseless in service.

 

[RobWilliams]

Yeah, it we take the general 1 in refit, 1 working up and 1 deployed then we shouldn't really have more than 2 deployed at any time. Personally i'd tag one of the pair working up as the RFTG T45 as chances are RFTG won't be deployed often so it's a "risk" worth doing.

I'd like to see the T45 only deployed in 'high risk' areas, generally these days that means the Gulf as the Falklands isn't as 'high risk' as it was. Chances are those 5 GP T26 will be used a load for the drug patrols and anti piracy and whatnot, as much as i'd prefer OPVs to be doing that job out've the current escort fleet then they're the ones i'd pick for GP duties.

8 would've been looooooovely, but a pair of AAW T26 to kinda support the capacity would be mighty fine too

 

[ASSAIL]

.

Chances are those 5 GP T26 will be used a load for the drug patrols and anti piracy and whatnot, as much as i'd prefer OPVs to be doing that job out've the current escort fleet then they're the ones i'd pick for GP duties.

You've just perfectly encapsulated the reason why the USN has gone the LCS route. Using a T26 to chase pirates is an absolute waste of a highly capable blue water escort.
If we are lucky enough to see 2 x operational CV's in future or when (not if) the RN is part of a wider NATO operation, those T26's will be in huge demand for their intended role.

Alternatively you've also outlined the case for the much discussed "Black Swan"

 

[1805]

All ten frigates (including one training frigate) in the Brazilian navy are British designed & either British built or built under licence.

4.5" guns on most, Seawolf on three, Olympus/Tyne/Spey GTs, Lynx helicopters . . .


[edit]
Six modified Leanders (licence built) plus an almost unarmed one for training, & three ex-RN Type 22s.

They are not modified Leanders, they a VT design, enlarged versions of the Type 21:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niteroi_class_frigate"]Niteroi class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame].

 

[RobWilliams]

You've just perfectly encapsulated the reason why the USN has gone the LCS route. Using a T26 to chase pirates is an absolute waste of a highly capable blue water escort.
If we are lucky enough to see 2 x operational CV's in future or when (not if) the RN is part of a wider NATO operation, those T26's will be in huge demand for their intended role.

Alternatively you've also outlined the case for the much discussed "Black Swan"

The USN does things differently to the RN in that the RN considers frigates and destroyers to be fine combatants doing different roles. The USN on the other hand generally considers frigates as under-armed destroyers, so when the chance to replace the Perrys came along then it made sense to do something else with them.

I do agree though, sending heavily armed surface combatants to chase after pirates or catch drug runners is a waste of resources, and in the case of the RN they don't have the resources to waste.

The idea vessel in my mind would be something bigger than a River, and thus slightly better armed (but no so much that politicians make the connection that it = frigate) but have the capacity to be deployed with a Lynx, apparently when hunting pirates or catching drug runners you can't beat a Lynx as it's considerably faster than any skiff. The Khareef class corvette is mentioned alot in this respect as it - pretty much - slots into what i've described, and IIRC the cost was £400m for 3 corvettes? Not bad (maybe delete the AShM to get the cost benefits), it'll solve the Portsmouth problem and if there's the possibility to keep them deployed in their respective areas (like HMS Clyde on the Falklands) with rotating crews we're onto a winner.

The key issue is that it shouldn't be comparable to a frigate, so the case of cutting frigate numbers to get these corvettes is lessened.

Hopefully we get both CVF operational, if we still get 1 cut even after switching from CATOBAR to STOVL then i'll not be responsible for my actions.

 

[1805]

The USN does things differently to the RN in that the RN considers frigates and destroyers to be fine combatants doing different roles. The USN on the other hand generally considers frigates as under-armed destroyers, so when the chance to replace the Perrys came along then it made sense to do something else with them.

I do agree though, sending heavily armed surface combatants to chase after pirates or catch drug runners is a waste of resources, and in the case of the RN they don't have the resources to waste.

The idea vessel in my mind would be something bigger than a River, and thus slightly better armed (but no so much that politicians make the connection that it = frigate) but have the capacity to be deployed with a Lynx, apparently when hunting pirates or catching drug runners you can't beat a Lynx as it's considerably faster than any skiff. The Khareef class corvette is mentioned alot in this respect as it - pretty much - slots into what i've described, and IIRC the cost was £400m for 3 corvettes? Not bad (maybe delete the AShM to get the cost benefits), it'll solve the Portsmouth problem and if there's the possibility to keep them deployed in their respective areas (like HMS Clyde on the Falklands) with rotating crews we're onto a winner.

The key issue is that it shouldn't be comparable to a frigate, so the case of cutting frigate numbers to get these corvettes is lessened.

Hopefully we get both CVF operational, if we still get 1 cut even after switching from CATOBAR to STOVL then i'll not be responsible for my actions.

That's not quite true, the LCS is not really a replacement for the Perrys. (an oceanic ASW escort intended for trade protection mainly in the North Atlantic). It is designed for warfare in coastal waters. This Wiki statement sums it up:

"In some respects, the VT Mk 5 were a rather revolutionary concept, reestablishing surface ship speed as a viable asset in surface warfare, particularly in the littorals and confined waters of the Gulf. The potential threat of such vessels was demonstrated when they attempted to strike at the USN fleet after the fundamentalist Islamic Revolution in Iran, during the Tanker War of 1987-8. The development of such high speed light missile frigates is part of the reason the USN countered with the development of its own light missile frigate, the LCS. Even today, the Mk5 and its derivatives represent a force in being, and an added factor for the USN and RN in the enclosed waters of the Gulf and the Strait. Operating in company with missile-armed submarines, small subs with mines and torpedoes that can fire while resting on the bottom of the strait, and shore-mounted Mach 3 Sunburn missiles, the M5 5 Iranian frigates can combine with massing Republican speedboats to close rapidly, greatly complicating a carrier group's ability to counter if trapped in the Gulf or under surprise attack"

The Khareef is a relative of the original Saam/Mark 5 design.

 

[RobWilliams]

I am perfectly aware what the LCS is designed to do, I was just saying that considering the Perry's are going it gives the USN a chance to go in a new direction without having to drastically increase ship numbers. It's why I added "made sense to do something else with them", to suggest it wasn't a direct capability replacement.

Didn't think it'd be appropriate to expand on 'Perry's are going, LCS are coming' considering it's a RN thread.

 

[StobieWan]

Well, if we could put a couple of extra River's into the water and get them into use (which oddly would tie in with the perceived need to keep Portsmouth busy) then I think that'd be a great idea.

It'd be more economical than any of the various awkward solutions we're using now (sending an AWD destroyer chasing pirates isn't best use of assets)


Better yet would be a proper, long legged OCV with a hangar, space for ScanEagle etc - no real emphasis on war fighting, just something grey, with a 30mm at the front and space for boarding teams etc.

I'm not a fan of the BlackSwan concept by the way - I'd far sooner we commissioned a class of reasonably sized hulls in the vein of the Venator or the BAM.

 

[swerve]

You've just perfectly encapsulated the reason why the USN has gone the LCS route. Using a T26 to chase pirates is an absolute waste of a highly capable blue water escort.

But the price of LCS is so high that it might be cheaper to use a T26.

LCS is an extremely expensive way to chase pirates. Something like the BAM would be a fraction of the price, & probably better at the job. Robust, decent endurance, good range at cruising speeds, helicopter. That's what is needed. A slightly enlarged Clyde (enough for a hangar) would do.

 

[StobieWan]

No "might" involved there - a Clyde is well under a fifth of the price of an LCS - I guess it depends on where you put the tail on the donkey in question but for about the price of a single LCS module, you could have a fully loaded Khareef.

(for instance)