63000? That's just the Waves. The Tides are also supposed to replace the Rovers & Orangeleaf. That's 148000 tons replacing about 133000 which are currently in service. And don't forget the recently retired tankers, which would bring the total being replaced to much more than the new tonnage being built.
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- Thread starter overlander
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We won't be losing the Waves for a while, they were only commissioned in '03! Must have a couple of decades left in 'em surely?
It's the only way you could get to 63000 tons, which is his figure. No other combination of RFA tankers will produce that number, as far as I can see.
But yeah, it doesn't make sense. I think the new Tide class will actually replace the current Rovers, Orangeleaf, & the capacity we've lost in the last three years with the retirement of Grey Rover, Bayleaf, Brambleleaf & Oakleaf, with a combined tonnage of 70000 in service, & 128000 tons recently retired. I think when CVF comes into service, we would find ourselves a bit short of tankers if we replaced the remaining Rovers & Orangeleaf with the same tonnage.
But yeah, it doesn't make sense. I think the new Tide class will actually replace the current Rovers, Orangeleaf, & the capacity we've lost in the last three years with the retirement of Grey Rover, Bayleaf, Brambleleaf & Oakleaf, with a combined tonnage of 70000 in service, & 128000 tons recently retired. I think when CVF comes into service, we would find ourselves a bit short of tankers if we replaced the remaining Rovers & Orangeleaf with the same tonnage.
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AFAIK when the Tides come in the planned roster for the RFA would be 4 x Tides + 2 x Waves, presumably until the Waves have to bow out ~2030 (?) when it'll be down to 4 - expecting no replacement.
Considering the sort of use tankers are getting now, we might find it a bit tight. I again point to the RFTG in the Med, should technically have been deployed with organic tanker support but didn't.
Wave Knight is doing FOST duties (21/11/12), Wave Ruler is in the Gulf (9/10/12), Orangeleaf was doing FOST duties earlier in the year but no idea what now (27/4/12), Gold Rover is in the South Atlantic - assuming she's deployed as long as Black Rover was as there (~18 months) (21/09/11).
No Idea what Black Rover is doing either, in Sept last year she was due to get maintenance+ then do FOST duties when she got back from APT(S) but that's it, nothing newer than that. She's still listed as "Active - APT(S) which doesn't make sense, could be still in maintenance + take over from Wave Knight for FOST in the future?
Either way, lot of tasks being carried out by the RFA. a CVF might get topped up with FOST when leaving Portsmouth and maybe by the Gulf readiness tanker if she's in that theatre, but other than that she'll have no organic tanker support looking at the current numbers. We'll get some breathing space for the next decade (if the Waves can last another ~20yr) when the tankers become +1 than they are now but for a period after that we'll be -1.
The dates next to the operations of the tankers I gave above are from RN articles released on that date doing the deployment I listed, i'll be happy to post up links if it's required. But I dunno what Orangeleaf + Black Rover are currently up to given the information from the RN.
Considering the sort of use tankers are getting now, we might find it a bit tight. I again point to the RFTG in the Med, should technically have been deployed with organic tanker support but didn't.
Wave Knight is doing FOST duties (21/11/12), Wave Ruler is in the Gulf (9/10/12), Orangeleaf was doing FOST duties earlier in the year but no idea what now (27/4/12), Gold Rover is in the South Atlantic - assuming she's deployed as long as Black Rover was as there (~18 months) (21/09/11).
No Idea what Black Rover is doing either, in Sept last year she was due to get maintenance+ then do FOST duties when she got back from APT(S) but that's it, nothing newer than that. She's still listed as "Active - APT(S) which doesn't make sense, could be still in maintenance + take over from Wave Knight for FOST in the future?
Either way, lot of tasks being carried out by the RFA. a CVF might get topped up with FOST when leaving Portsmouth and maybe by the Gulf readiness tanker if she's in that theatre, but other than that she'll have no organic tanker support looking at the current numbers. We'll get some breathing space for the next decade (if the Waves can last another ~20yr) when the tankers become +1 than they are now but for a period after that we'll be -1.
The dates next to the operations of the tankers I gave above are from RN articles released on that date doing the deployment I listed, i'll be happy to post up links if it's required. But I dunno what Orangeleaf + Black Rover are currently up to given the information from the RN.
Anixtu
New Member
No they didn't. That was the original concept, but in reality their main task was fleet replenishment.
I very carefully didn't say that. They replace the liquid replenishment capabilities of the new Forts so that when the Tides are fully in service we no longer operate 'single hulled tankers'. Politics.
Why is anyone talking about losing Waves? 2030 or 2040 is a looong way off.
Orangeleaf is in refit at Birkenhead. Black Rover is undergoing OST and simultaneously running as FOST Tanker.
Considering you talked about replacing TWO Forts, I naturally thought of the 2 Forts we actually have which are the same class as taking one from each class seemed incredibly strange and the fact that those two Forts I thought of need replacement soon, it seemed to me to be the most logical - based on what you said - and also the most illogical considering the Old Forts have zero liquid capacity at all.
According to the RN out've the 2 Fort Victoria (i.e 'new' Forts) ships, Fort Victoria is the only one serving with her counterpart being decommissioned last year. We've got 3 Fort's serving as SSS according to the RFA roster; 2 'old' Forts (Rosalie + Austin) and 1 'new' Fort (Victoria)
I'm well aware of the double/single hull rules, it's never been clearly mentioned AFAIK that Fort Victoria is included in the Tide class' numbers but chances are that's how she's being looked at by the MOD. That should mean 1 for 1 replacements for the older Forts.
I was pointing out the situation in the future, I prefer not to look as far as my nose and say "Well, it's all good right now anyway!" and it's in my nature to look ahead and try find potential problems - and therefore solutions - I will see arising in my lifetime and that is one of those problems. I won't kick back and think it's all lovely just now.
Cheers for the info
Anixtu
New Member
I also talked about 4 Leafs and 3 Rovers. I could have been a little clearer.
Only Fort Vic's liquid role is being replaced by MARS FT, her solid replenishment role (along with that of the old Forts) is to be replaced by the three planned MARS SSS.
By 2030 fleet replenishment will have been contracted out and you'll just call in the nearest Maersk replenishment tanker or ammunition ship.
Very true, which is why I only picked up on the Forts comment as I thought it was iffy.
I'd like to see 3 SSS, but I doubt it. Looking at Beedall again (very good source of info, but it is dated as he's stopped doing it I think so watch out) back in '07 they were only really talking about 2 SSS.
Here's a nice little nugget of the last bit he posted about the SSS
Navy Matters | Military Afloat Reach and Sustainability
IMO they sound like cracking ships, but like I said it's dated info so the requirements might/might not have been changed.
EDIT: Apparently that article was last updated in 2011, so might not be as dated as I think! Although they talk about JSBL ships (Joint Sea Based Logistic ships), i'll need to check on those. Chances are the requirement has been cut considering the downsizing of 2010 SDSR
Wouldn't say that, the Tides aren't all due to be here until 2019 i think so you reckon we're chucking them out 11 years after that?By 2030 fleet replenishment will have been contracted out and you'll just call in the nearest Maersk replenishment tanker or ammunition ship.
Rovers: 2 x 11.5k + Orangeleaf: 1 x 40k = c63k. If you add in the Waves to the Tides is c211k with 6 ships.
The Rovers have a displacement closer to ~16,000 tonnes.
RFA Black Rover | Royal Navy
RFA Gold Rover | Royal Navy
Listed at the bottom under 'Key Statistics'.
RFA Black Rover | Royal Navy
RFA Gold Rover | Royal Navy
Listed at the bottom under 'Key Statistics'.
Anixtu
New Member
The original MARS proposal included 2 x Fleet Solid Stores (FSS) and 2 x Joint Sea-Based Logistics (JSBL) ships. Post-SDSR that requirement has been rolled together and cut down to 3 x MARS SSS covering both tasks.
FSS was the CVF supplier, JSBL the amphibious sustainer. These are tasks currently split between the Forts. In the 2000s, broadly, the AORs (new Forts) supplied CVS and AFSH (old Forts) supported ATG.
2015 or 2016 for delivery of the last Tide.Wouldn't say that, the Tides aren't all due to be here until 2019 i think so you reckon we're chucking them out 11 years after that?
Not thinking in terms of platforms. Privatisation of the RFA was on the table in the last few years. One of the key reasons for rejection was lack of appetite amongst commercial firms to operate legacy platforms, i.e. SHTs.
Anixtu
New Member
I know it wasn't you that started talking about tonnage, but we are talking about tankers and the important element of 'size' is cargo capacity, not full load displacement. Cargo capacity of a Rover is around 3,500m³.
Trust the RN website as far as you can throw it. The statistics on the Rover pages are from Largs Bay.
I wasn't talking to you, I was replying to 1805 directly about sheer displacement hence why I didn't "quote" him as there's no point in quoting the preceding reply. It's the general thing to do AFAIK on this forum as it's a waste of space and it's fairly obvious who i'm talking too. It's the convention i've used with you unless I have to split up a quote to make it more obvious what i'm replying too.
If I was replying to you, as you're not the preceding post to mine I would've quoted you.
Good spot, didn't notice that!! Apologies 1805, my bad
If I was replying to you, as you're not the preceding post to mine I would've quoted you.
Good spot, didn't notice that!! Apologies 1805, my bad
That's pretty cool, hopefully we'll see something coming through the pipeworks soon then in respect to that. If the 'specs' Beedall talks about are anything close to reality, that won't be half bad IMO
Nope
Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Equipment and Logistics | New fleet of RFA tankers named
.
My understanding always has been 2016 onwards, roughly translating into 1 ship per year meaning 2016, 2017, 2018 and finally 2019.
I can't speak to this because I don't know enough about it, but I don't see that happening at all, certainly at least not in the timeframe of ~2030 you talk about.
Don't worry about it, the RN website seems to have polluted Wiki, which is now quoting different figures for the remaining 2 ships in the class!I wasn't talking to you, I was replying to 1805 directly about sheer displacement hence why I didn't "quote" him as there's no point in quoting the preceding reply. It's the general thing to do AFAIK on this forum as it's a waste of space and it's fairly obvious who i'm talking too. It's the convention i've used with you unless I have to split up a quote to make it more obvious what i'm replying too.
If I was replying to you, as you're not the preceding post to mine I would've quoted you.
Good spot, didn't notice that!! Apologies 1805, my bad
Anixtu
New Member
As originally announced deliveries were due to commence in "late 2015" at six month intervals. That would put the last delivery in first half 2017, but I'm fairly sure the timings have been advanced, though it might be that the deliveries completing by 2017 is the advanced version, I can't find a reference.
Entry into service has to be a little later than delivery due to process: adding any stuff that they chose not contract the building yard for, trials, OST.
Privatisation was a serious proposal in the last few years. I can't find a clear summary, but here's a few articles that touch on it: Navy workers' fears over RFA jobs - Local - Portsmouth News
Minister meets with RFA union over cuts threat | Daly History Blog
RMT - Future of Royal Fleet Auxiliary
Yeah, I got told & checked it out with Cardigan Bay and he's right.
Went all around the web and kept finding the same value, got very annoying for a while and had to check out some very obscure sites to find it
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They're gunna spend a while in the UK before entering service fitting the suckers out with systems, weapons etc (IIRC ~1/3 of the contract cost is fitting them out) and doing sea trials etc, it may be different for the RFA but I was only basing my numbers on what they did with the Type 45 and what I think they're doing with the Type 26; 1 commissioned every year.
AFAIK they haven't even begun cutting steel on them yet - or at least they're keeping it very quiet - so I won't expect much until the build actually starts getting going.
So that's the tankers and (should be) the SSS 'sorted', now it's what to do about Argus + Diligence.
That's one of the questions I asked about in my FOI (have they got plans; what are they?), not gunna lie i'm expecting "decision to be made in 2015" but even that's better than nothing. It'll at least let us know they are thinking about it, they're very quiet at the mo.
Excellent, i'll have a read through those tomorrow! Cheers
Anixtu
New Member
If you've found a plausible figure please update Wikipedia. The Black and Gold Rover articles (at least, I haven't checked the others) are quite poor and whilst I can correct a lot of data, referencing it is more difficult.Went all around the web and kept finding the same value, got very annoying for a while and had to check out some very obscure sites to find it
Anixtu
New Member
See Gunline Spring 2012, page 2, Commodore Walworth's box: http://www.historicalrfa.org/component/weblinks/weblink/154-uncategorised/59-gunline-spring-2012
MARS SS isn't funded yet.