The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yup, no-one is talking about using the deterrent patrol boat out of position launching TLAM, 'cos that'd be Bad.


It'd have to of the three boats that weren't in use, and it'd have to be available as a hot swap if the patrol SSBN got bent.

It's idle talk based around the idea that you might be able to re-role the sub quickly and that we'd have availability - if none of those things were true, the idea won't float ;)
 

1805

New Member
I think the RAF have brought 900 Storm Shadow, they must have used a fair few, but stock is still likely to be huge.

I understand sub launched TLAM is more expensive than VLS launched (that said I am not sure which type is used in the SSGN?

If we do go for a surface ship VLS cruise missile, surely it would make more sense to buy a MBDA product, partcularly when we have brought the air launched version. If not we would almost be back to the bad old days of Sea Eagle/Harpoon split orders....could you imagne the French buying airlaunched Exocets and then ship launched & Sub Harpoon?
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
I suspect that commonality between sub-launched and VL TLAM (IIRC VL is the main method for SSGNs but I don't see why torp-tube sleeved ones couldn't be used) is closer than Storm Shadow and MdCN as sub-launched TLAM is pretty much a regular TLAM with a sleeve so the performances are pretty much equivalent I think whereas MdCN has something like 4x the range of StormShadow with roughly equivalent dimensions except MdCN is something like 1.5m longer.

Then personally I'd rather that the Navy has commonality with itself primarily rather than adding in the RAF. I don't see us getting rid of sub launched TLAM any time soon so why not - if you're going to get a land attack munition - try to get some commonality with the submarine service?

But then factor in that you can fit the current Ohio class can fit 7 TLAM per tube (bizarre I know, so i've attached a link) then I don't see why you'd need sub-launched TLAM considering if we're talking about Vanguard successor that'd be 56 TLAM per boat - very potent indeed.


Google Image Result for http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/attachments/naval-warfare/14127d1239831052-tour-typhoon-0872841.jpg

EDIT: Then specifically in reference to the MN they're doing the exact same thing, FREMM will carry VL MdCN and their next gen SSN will use sub launched MdCN for their land attack munition
 

1805

New Member
I suspect that commonality between sub-launched and VL TLAM (IIRC VL is the main method for SSGNs but I don't see why torp-tube sleeved ones couldn't be used) is closer than Storm Shadow and MdCN as sub-launched TLAM is pretty much a regular TLAM with a sleeve so the performances are pretty much equivalent I think whereas MdCN has something like 4x the range of StormShadow with roughly equivalent dimensions except MdCN is something like 1.5m longer.

Then personally I'd rather that the Navy has commonality with itself primarily rather than adding in the RAF. I don't see us getting rid of sub launched TLAM any time soon so why not - if you're going to get a land attack munition - try to get some commonality with the submarine service?

But then factor in that you can fit the current Ohio class can fit 7 TLAM per tube (bizarre I know, so i've attached a link) then I don't see why you'd need sub-launched TLAM considering if we're talking about Vanguard successor that'd be 56 TLAM per boat - very potent indeed.


Google Image Result for http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/attachments/naval-warfare/14127d1239831052-tour-typhoon-0872841.jpg

EDIT: Then specifically in reference to the MN they're doing the exact same thing, FREMM will carry VL MdCN and their next gen SSN will use sub launched MdCN for their land attack munition
I do see value in a surface based cruise missile capability, particularly with the current carrier gap. I would rather a couple of Type 45 give strike length VLS, this would transform these excellent ships, than wait till the Type 26, when we will hopefully have F35/Storm Shadow.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
I do see value in a surface based cruise missile capability, particularly with the current carrier gap. I would rather a couple of Type 45 give strike length VLS, this would transform these excellent ships, than wait till the Type 26, when we will hopefully have F35/Storm Shadow.
If I had my way, the Type 45 would have the max amount of cells it can handle with 2 quad Harpoon launchers.

But considering that's not going to happen anytime soon - at least not before any major refits are due - then the only real chance of it happening is on the Type 26 which given other design characteristics I don't see any other option bar strike length cells. Considering until the CVF with F35B arrives the RN has no long range strike capability apart from the submarine service and the fact that the number of SSNs have dropped that means that we can't rely on them as much to provide that capability.

Even when the CVF/F35B turns up then if surface ships can do the initial cruise missile strikes (with Astutes) that frees up the limited B's available for CAP/CAS later on.
 

the concerned

Active Member
just asking would a jsf'b be able to launch and more importantly land with storm shadow attached if not thats an expensive ditch.like others have said let land attack missilies do the job.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
TLAM comes with too many advantages in purchasing, handling and ordering, as well as the additional range and flexibility (Block IV can be re-targeted in mid-course)

And we already have it in inventory so we've managed fine so far with TLAM for naval land attack plus Stormshadow for RAF work.


If we got Scalp then we'd have to commission a huge run, keep 'em in stock, love 'em and hug 'em and call them George etc. TLAM, it's like sending out for Pizza, put a call into Destruction Direct and they show up, hot and fresh. Or we can get drive through.

Seriously, there's some pics out there of an RN sub alongside a US replenishment ship, loading TLAM in a sheltered bay someplace.
 

AndrewMI

New Member
I'm not 100% sure you're understanding what we mean, we're not talking about operating a dedicated SSGN but having an SSBN with the CMC which can operate as an SSGN if/when the circumstances require it.

I can't see how if you swap out the missile load for VL TLAM rather than Trident D-5 that any potential patrol will be any more dangerous, certainly not any great deal of danger than a regular SSN experiences in theatre.
My point is that that it should not be based on the same design as an operational SSBN. The reason for that is so that there is no chance of a confusion (in the minds of an adversary) between an SSGN about to attack, or and SSBN.

Quite frankly, i think SSN's sould carry increased TLAM - if this role is required at all.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
just asking would a jsf'b be able to launch and more importantly land with storm shadow attached if not thats an expensive ditch.like others have said let land attack missilies do the job.
The F35 can only carry StormShadow on weapon stations 3 and 9 (see attached pic) regardless of variant as long as the attached images has the figures in pounds because StormShadow is coming up to 2900lbs - using MBDA figure of 1300kg - so unless there's some tolerance on stations 2 and 10 that's it.

I remember there being something about those being the only "wet" pylons meaning it's a straight up choice between Storm Shadow and external fuel drop tanks.

Don't get any ideas of using Israeli conformal fuel tanks either, I asked the MOD about it in an FOI request and got "Not being considered now or planned for in the forseeable future".

In regards to landing IIRC the initial parameters were bring back of reserve fuel, 2 x 1000lb JDAM + 2 AMRAAM in VTOL config and SRVL increased this by ~2000lbs

UK to extend rolling carrier landing research for JSF
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
My point is that that it should not be based on the same design as an operational SSBN. The reason for that is so that there is no chance of a confusion (in the minds of an adversary) between an SSGN about to attack, or and SSBN.

Quite frankly, i think SSN's sould carry increased TLAM - if this role is required at all.
The issue of mistaking an SSGN attack with an SSBN attack is non existant. Submarines don't have to surface to attack with cruise missiles so you don't have any idea what type of submarine and considering a Trident missile is far larger + generally pretty different in other areas than a Tomahawk there won't be any issues there and considering that's why TLAM-N was pulled (i.e a nuclear TLAM varient would lead to every TLAM potentially being a nuclear attack.) then the distinction between a D5 and a TLAM must be obvious enough to differentiate themselves in a pinch.

The idea that an enemy could know if the sub launching the strike is an SSGN or SSN is silly.

"If this role is required at all" - well it is, as it stands the only vessels that the RN has right now to perform long range surprise surgical strikes is it's SSN fleet and it's been quite valuable and provides a very handy capability and considering the current gen USN SSGNs can carry 7 TLAM per Trident tube (to show the scale of the difference of size) that's a pretty impressive amount of firepower - 154 VL TLAM to be precise excluding any potential submarine launched stocks they may or may not decide to carry.

Astute class subs have the equivalent of the Virginias I think, a mix of heavyweight torpedos or cruise missiles that mount up to 38 total and although increasing this would be very helpful it's completely unrelated to the discussion at hand i.e If we've got a spare SSBN ready to go with one already deployed for CASD should it be able to be called into the SSGN rule if the situation called for it?

EDIT: The only REAL way you could tell - i suppose - is looking at the angle the missile leaves the water as a VL TLAM would probably be more well, vertical. But even then the missile can be identified as a TLAM easily enough and won't be labelled a nuclear attack.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Oh dang :(

House of Commons Hansard Written Answers for 17 Oct 2012 (pt 0002)

Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) whether design work has been carried out to modify the design of later submarines in the Astute class in order for them to be powered by PWR3 reactors; [122797]

(2) whether the seventh submarine in the Astute class will use a PWR2 or PWR3 reactor. [122798]

Mr Dunne: The seventh Astute class submarine will be powered by Pressurised Water Reactor 2 (PWR2). No design work has been carried out to modify Astute class submarines in order for them to be powered by Pressurised Water Reactor 3 (PWR3), rather than PWR2. PWR3 is a new design that exploits technology that was not available when the Astute design was finalised.
Not going to lie, It did seem a bit odd that the last in class would be different to the rest IMO.
 

deepsixteen

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The issue of mistaking an SSGN attack with an SSBN attack is non existant. Submarines don't have to surface to attack with cruise missiles so you don't have any idea what type of submarine and considering a Trident missile is far larger + generally pretty different in other areas than a Tomahawk there won't be any issues there and considering that's why TLAM-N was pulled (i.e a nuclear TLAM varient would lead to every TLAM potentially being a nuclear attack.) then the distinction between a D5 and a TLAM must be obvious enough to differentiate themselves in a pinch.

The idea that an enemy could know if the sub launching the strike is an SSGN or SSN is silly.

"If this role is required at all" - well it is, as it stands the only vessels that the RN has right now to perform long range surprise surgical strikes is it's SSN fleet and it's been quite valuable and provides a very handy capability and considering the current gen USN SSGNs can carry 7 TLAM per Trident tube (to show the scale of the difference of size) that's a pretty impressive amount of firepower - 154 VL TLAM to be precise excluding any potential submarine launched stocks they may or may not decide to carry.

Astute class subs have the equivalent of the Virginias I think, a mix of heavyweight torpedos or cruise missiles that mount up to 38 total and although increasing this would be very helpful it's completely unrelated to the discussion at hand i.e If we've got a spare SSBN ready to go with one already deployed for CASD should it be able to be called into the SSGN rule if the situation called for it?

EDIT: The only REAL way you could tell - i suppose - is looking at the angle the missile leaves the water as a VL TLAM would probably be more well, vertical. But even then the missile can be identified as a TLAM easily enough and won't be labelled a nuclear attack.

Hi

Different classes of submarine have differing signatures (sometimes you can ID individual boats) so if you are nation X and you get a sniff of an SSBN/GN you may decide to launch your birds because you think that SSGN/BN is about to launch a pre-emptive strike. It is foolish to assume the enemy will not detect you but very few nations will be able to differentiate for example an Ohio BN from a GN leaving the enemy little choice.

TLAM(A) and GLCM were removed to comply with the 1987 IRNF Treaty and the fact that they were vulnerable to interception and sometimes got lost; who wants to grant the enemy the possibility of obtaining a W84 or W80 warhead?

The launching of a ballistic missile is detectable almost instantly by an increasing number of countries with requisite satellite technology.

There is no requirement for an SSGN for the UK; the entire TLAM stock around a decade ago for this country was 64 I have no reason to believe that has changed by much if at all.

As discussed over the last few pages Type 26 is it seem’s to get strike length cells and by the end of the decade we will have CVF with F35 and Storm shadow. The length of CVF and the ramp permits max weight take off and SRVL allows you to bring it back.

Deepsixteen
 

1805

New Member
If I had my way, the Type 45 would have the max amount of cells it can handle with 2 quad Harpoon launchers.

But considering that's not going to happen anytime soon - at least not before any major refits are due - then the only real chance of it happening is on the Type 26 which given other design characteristics I don't see any other option bar strike length cells. Considering until the CVF with F35B arrives the RN has no long range strike capability apart from the submarine service and the fact that the number of SSNs have dropped that means that we can't rely on them as much to provide that capability.

Even when the CVF/F35B turns up then if surface ships can do the initial cruise missile strikes (with Astutes) that frees up the limited B's available for CAP/CAS later on.
I could see the T45 getting VLS SCALP/TLAM eventually (although there is a case for now), but a SSGN very unlikely, although you could argue the Astutes with a c50% bigger capacity than the Ts are in that space. I don't see an order for MdCN has to be that big the French have ordered only 200 (50 for SSNs).
.
 
Back to directed-energy (you know that stuff the Navy allegedly used back in '82) weapons... :p:

Electromagnetic weapons: Frying tonight | The Economist

When acting as a normal radar, an AESA broadcasts its microwaves over a wide area. At the touch of a button, however, all of its energy can be focused onto a single point. If that point coincides with an incoming missile or aircraft, the target's electronics will be zapped.
One wonders if SAMPSON's software has such a capability...?

As for Ajax I thought PWR2 would be the choice: Sir Humphrey has articulated the folly of small, follow-on classes before (albeit Type-45):

Thin Pinstriped Line: "Add Two Type 45s to your shopping basket? - Click here to purchase". The reason the UK can't just 'buy two more Type 45s'...

Finally using CASD has an SSGN surrogate undermines the deterrant (as the Treasury/Lib-Dems will use it as an argument to cull Trident). Four is the magic number.... [Apologies to De la Soul.]
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hi

Different classes of submarine have differing signatures (sometimes you can ID individual boats) so if you are nation X and you get a sniff of an SSBN/GN you may decide to launch your birds because you think that SSGN/BN is about to launch a pre-emptive strike. It is foolish to assume the enemy will not detect you but very few nations will be able to differentiate for example an Ohio BN from a GN leaving the enemy little choice.
Only if they have sonar equipmnt of a comparable level, and yes while it's foolish to assume they won't detect you it's equally as foolish to assume that at the slightest whiff of a submarine slightly bigger than usual (which they may or may not get - look at the Falklands and how essentially undetecable Conquerer and Spartan and the like were) that the enemy will cry "nuclear attack" and maybe even retaliate immdiately with a full nuclear strike which I believe was the initial worry by another postr or something similar.

That being said considering the range of TLAM then the sub could easily be several hundred km from the coast and then again that being said if I were a boomer captain I wouldn't park my boat off the coast of the country I was about to nuke if there was a risk of being detected.

The launching of a ballistic missile is detectable almost instantly by an increasing number of countries with requisite satellite technology.
Indeed, so don't you reckon that - people in the know - could easily differentiate between a cruise missile and a ballistic missile attack fairly easily?

There is no requirement for an SSGN for the UK; the entire TLAM stock around a decade ago for this country was 64 I have no reason to believe that has changed by much if at all.
No I know it's not a requirement and it's not what we're talking about here. For the second time, IF (due to increased availability) we have a 'spare' SSBN alongside in Faslane ready to go with CASD already being provided should it have the ability to deploy as an SSGN if the situation called for it? Like an "extra" SSN considering the drop in numbers?

We're not talking about operating a dedicated SSGN.

As discussed over the last few pages Type 26 is it seem’s to get strike length cells and by the end of the decade we will have CVF with F35 and Storm shadow. The length of CVF and the ramp permits max weight take off and SRVL allows you to bring it back.

Deepsixteen
I'd not heard that SRVL allows max take off weight bring back, so if it's true then I'm in a good mood.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
I could see the T45 getting VLS SCALP/TLAM eventually (although there is a case for now), but a SSGN very unlikely, although you could argue the Astutes with a c50% bigger capacity than the Ts are in that space. I don't see an order for MdCN has to be that big the French have ordered only 200 (50 for SSNs).
.
I do too, but not for a while - say 2018 at a guess but most probably after that.

Well looking at Wiki figures the number of weapons capable to be carried has increased by 8 weapons (from 30 to 38)

I still wouldn't go for it though, the French would be doing the same as what we'd be doing i.e having the same missile for surface and sub surface launch and like I said I expect there's more commonality with those weapons than a surface ship launched + air launched.
 

1805

New Member
I still wouldn't go for it though, the French would be doing the same as what we'd be doing i.e having the same missile for surface and sub surface launch and like I said I expect there's more commonality with those weapons than a surface ship launched + air launched.
But they would not be interchangeable, so there would be no value there. MdCN is already in production and is compatable with A70 launchers, and is a MBDA product. If you want a capability you need to buy the products. The US offered a great deal to not go with Meteor, but if we had go the US route, we would not have had a viable missile industry...or it would be dominated by the French.
 

AndrewMI

New Member
The issue of mistaking an SSGN attack with an SSBN attack is non existant. Submarines don't have to surface to attack with cruise missiles so you don't have any idea what type of submarine and considering a Trident missile is far larger + generally pretty different in other areas than a Tomahawk there won't be any issues there and considering that's why TLAM-N was pulled (i.e a nuclear TLAM varient would lead to every TLAM potentially being a nuclear attack.) then the distinction between a D5 and a TLAM must be obvious enough to differentiate themselves in a pinch.

The idea that an enemy could know if the sub launching the strike is an SSGN or SSN is silly.

"If this role is required at all" - well it is, as it stands the only vessels that the RN has right now to perform long range surprise surgical strikes is it's SSN fleet and it's been quite valuable and provides a very handy capability and considering the current gen USN SSGNs can carry 7 TLAM per Trident tube (to show the scale of the difference of size) that's a pretty impressive amount of firepower - 154 VL TLAM to be precise excluding any potential submarine launched stocks they may or may not decide to carry.

Astute class subs have the equivalent of the Virginias I think, a mix of heavyweight torpedos or cruise missiles that mount up to 38 total and although increasing this would be very helpful it's completely unrelated to the discussion at hand i.e If we've got a spare SSBN ready to go with one already deployed for CASD should it be able to be called into the SSGN rule if the situation called for it?

EDIT: The only REAL way you could tell - i suppose - is looking at the angle the missile leaves the water as a VL TLAM would probably be more well, vertical. But even then the missile can be identified as a TLAM easily enough and won't be labelled a nuclear attack.
I should clarify, i am not saying that a TLAM would be mistaken for a Trident missile once launched (plainly that would be absurd), but rather a potential adversary would not be aware of the type of submarine that either left Faslane, or that it was tailling.

To an extent, my point is political, rahter than military, but i feel it is valid because the deployment (and ultimate use) of strategic nuclear weapons are a political, rather than tactical weapon.

The UK (current) policy on nukes is one of strategic ambivalance. There will always be one SSBN on patrol 24/7/365. However, there are 3 additional boats one of which is ready to set sail at short notice. No-one outside the core personel knows what it will take to trigger that second submarine from being launched, but they know that if it is launched the UK means business. They also know, that all Vanguard class subs are SSBNs. No uncertainty.

If we were to convert a sub to an SSGN configuration, there would be no obvious way of telling whether the UK decided to send a tactical weapons sysem or a strategic weapons system out to sea.

In the current situation with Syria, where the western powers are on one side, and Russia stands on the other, a suspicious enemy could legitimatly question whether, in a military action, the UK would be sending an SSBN or an SSGN - it would depend on the action planned.

I do think there is a role for a vessel in the RN which can launch significant numbers of TLAM missiles, i just dont think it should be an SSGN. It should be a T45 or T26, with the SSN being able to undertake the role in more dangerous waters.

Hopefully that explains my thoughts further - if there are any points/questions then feel free - i will try to respond when i can.

All the best. Andrew
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
But they would not be interchangeable, so there would be no value there. MdCN is already in production and is compatable with A70 launchers, and is a MBDA product. If you want a capability you need to buy the products. The US offered a great deal to not go with Meteor, but if we had go the US route, we would not have had a viable missile industry...or it would be dominated by the French.
MdCN and Storm Shadow aren't interchangable either because the missile is different, AFAIK the only real difference between VL TLAM and sub launched TLAM is that sub launched has a sleeve to allow firing from a torpedo tube so there's more commonality with that than MdCN and Storm Shadow IMO because the airframe is longer for the former + also has something like 4 x the range so it's hardly equivalent.

I'm all for supporting indiginous missile capability, but if that comes at the cost of capability (MdCN has 1000+km range - TLAM has ~1700km) for a negligable financial benefit then i'm not so sure. Is there any reason why they'll open a production line in the UK? As France is currently the only buyer AFAIK then chances are the initial production lines are being run at MBDA locations in France so we may - ultimately - end up just buying them from French plants.

As to being "dominated by the French", MdCN is a French concept (hence the name) so it comes down to buying from the French or from the US.

Meteor is a prime example of Europe producing a world class munition with many interested parties in Europe (and probably abroad with export customers), personally I don't think we'll see that from Europe again until Perseus comes around which - according to Janes - has been developed in consultation with the RN and the MN (i.e the 2 biggest navies in Europe) so they're probably interested in adopting it at some point in the future post 2030.

DSEi 2011 - Perseus: MBDA’s missile of the future?

My prediction is that most maritime defence weapon systems MBDA puts out will be aimed specifically at the RN and MN - it's the economically sensible thing to do but has it's issues - but is now the right time considering the current variety in both countries missile stocks?
 
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