Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[hauritz]

I remember back in 2002 that the the plan was to keep the F-111 flying until 2020 ... it was gone by 2010.

The classic hornets are old, and by the end of this decade they will be well and truly on borrowed time. I hope they do make it because I think the F-35 is a much better long term proposition ... but I think it will be touch and go.

If a decision is made to buy extra Superhornets and acquire Growler technology then you would be better off simply leaving the current superhornets the way they are and buy new Growlers instead. On the other hand if it is decided that no new aircraft are required then by all means update the existing aircraft.

 

[VerySneaky]

My understanding is that 12 of the aircraft were purchased with all the wiring required for them to be fitted out with the growler systems. They just need the pods and other equipment to be plugged in.

I'm not sure its quite that straight forward.. I know the gun has to be taken out to fit the electronic countermeasures systems so that would imply some level of conversion

 

[Todjaeger]

I'm not sure its quite that straight forward.. I know the gun has to be taken out to fit the electronic countermeasures systems so that would imply some level of conversion

The gun is replaced with a pod (or perhaps pods) and then there are a few other pods and modules scattered about the aircraft IIRC. Arguably the most difficult part of converting an F/A-18F Superhornet into an EA-18G Growler is installing the wire harness that a Growler requires. To do that in a completed aircraft would require additional wiring be either fished throughout the aircraft, or the aircraft to be disassembled to run the wiring harness.

Having a dozen aircraft pre-wired for Growler conversion would make things comparatively simple.

-Cheers

 

[aussienscale]

The gun is replaced with a pod (or perhaps pods) and then there are a few other pods and modules scattered about the aircraft IIRC. Arguably the most difficult part of converting an F/A-18F Superhornet into an EA-18G Growler is installing the wire harness that a Growler requires. To do that in a completed aircraft would require additional wiring be either fished throughout the aircraft, or the aircraft to be disassembled to run the wiring harness.

Having a dozen aircraft pre-wired for Growler conversion would make things comparatively simple.

-Cheers

Correct Tod, you would not even bother to try and run the wiring looms, I think the cost would be too high, would be better just buying Growlers off the line. The pre wiring will make the conversion relatively simple to do, a few changes, cockpit changes etc, but essentially plug and play

I think some are missing the point though, what is going to be their role in the RAAF and for Australia ? Where do they fit into our force construct ? I know what the Growler's can do, but do we need the capability ?

The decision has been made and announced, so we are getting them, pitty the Government did not think of how we will use them. IIRC they are still working on development of LO pods for an F-35 EW version ? Spudman you might be able to do a fly by and clarify that ?

Cheers

 

[Milne Bay]

Correct Tod, you would not even bother to try and run the wiring looms, I think the cost would be too high, would be better just buying Growlers off the line. The pre wiring will make the conversion relatively simple to do, a few changes, cockpit changes etc, but essentially plug and play

I think some are missing the point though, what is going to be their role in the RAAF and for Australia ? Where do they fit into our force construct ? I know what the Growler's can do, but do we need the capability ?

The decision has been made and announced, so we are getting them, pitty the Government did not think of how we will use them. IIRC they are still working on development of LO pods for an F-35 EW version ? Spudman you might be able to do a fly by and clarify that ?

Cheers

The Growlers have arrived — not Australia’s though

Item by australianaviation.com.au at 1:45 pm, Friday October 5 2012 19

Three US Navy EA-18G Growlers are taking part in joint exercises at RAAF Base Amberley. (Dept of Defence)

Three Boeing EA-18G Growlers belonging to the US Navy touched down at RAAF Amberly this week for a three week joint exercise focusing on airborne electronic attack integration. RAAF F/A-18F Super Hornets are taking part in the exercises alongside the Growlers, an electronic warfare variant of the Super Hornet.

Australia announced plans in August to move ahead with Growler conversions on 12 of the RAAF’s 24 Super Hornets. The first of the RAAF’s Growlers aren’t expected to be available for operations until 2018.

The visiting American EA-18Gs, part of the Navy’s Washington state-based Electronic Attack Squadron 132, are serving a six month deployment at Naval Air Facility Misawa in Japan in support of the US 7th Fleet.

The Growlers have arrived — not Australia

Does this help?

 

[ADMk2]

Where does the figure of $1.5b to upgrade the super hornets to growlers come from? The cost I have seen is $1.9b, an extra $400m. I wonder which figure is closest.

The Australian Growler DSCA announcement, I think.

Also I cant see us buying 24 F35's for that money.

The cost of the full package of 24x Super Hornets was $6.6b if I recall correctly.

Anyone thinking we could buy 24x F-35B aircraft for $1.5B is not really thinking it through I guess...

 

[aussienscale]

The Australian Growler DSCA announcement, I think.



The cost of the full package of 24x Super Hornets was $6.6b if I recall correctly.

Anyone thinking we could buy 24x F-35B aircraft for $1.5B is not really thinking it through I guess...

And on that note, just to clarify my earlier comment, I would rather see the $1.5b going towards

 

[Bonza]

Just out of curiosity, I'm wondering how many F-35s are needed to meet future force construct objectives, and in the event of a split fleet of Super Hornets and Lightnings eventuating, how disruptive this would be to those objectives? I'm just wondering because sometimes it seems as though that might end up being the case, and while I'm quite confident of the Block II Super Hornet's capabilities, I know there's another, bigger picture to think about and with which I'm not too familiar...

I'm sure a couple of people on here could give me some insight, but if it's not something that can really be discussed that's fine too. Just trying to get a better idea of where these combat jets will fit in to the RAAF's overall air combat capability.

 

[fretburner]

^ Is the Australian government even thinking about a mixed fleet of F-35s and F-18s? I thought they were very vocal about having an all F-35 fleet?

 

[Bonza]

^ Is the Australian government even thinking about a mixed fleet of F-35s and F-18s? I thought they were very vocal about having an all F-35 fleet?

They have been vocal in that respect, yes, but governments can change, military expenditure appears (from the outside) to rarely be set in stone, and I'm just thinking in terms of a worst case scenario - for example a delay in the F-35 coming into service and a discovery that our present Hornet fleet is unable to meet requirements (for whatever reason) until that point, so in the interim another 24 Supers are purchased, bringing the RAAF's complement up to 48 Super Hornets or 36 Supers/12 Growlers. That's a substantial investment and a substantial portion of the combat jet force, and if that scenario eventuated I doubt we'd be seeing the Supers go back to the US any time soon (I actually think that'll end up being the case with our current squadron anyway).

So it's more for my curiosity's sake than anything else. Of course an all-Lightning fleet would be preferable, and I don't suppose an extra squadron of Super Hornets would necessarily be available to the RAAF as quickly as the first given how it was procured (cutting directly into the USN production line), so yeah, treat it as a hypothetical. In any case it'll be a sad day when the classic Hornets go, they're magnificent machines with some really neat kit.

Was hoping some of the more well informed posters here could discuss it, but if it's too touchy a subject or just irrelevant I'm good with that too. : )

 

[gf0012-aust]

Was hoping some of the more well informed posters here could discuss it, but if it's too touchy a subject or just irrelevant I'm good with that too. : )

I can tell you that some of the senior sirs I know might follow the govt line re timing and benefit, but have some concerns about the fact that the mixed fleet will screw all the force development that was only recently done.

They would rather have 100 JSF than 75+25 mixed

as usual, personal opinion etc... blah blah blah

the $6.6bn was an aspirational number thats already being challenged - and will grow again in 5 years time

it means that all the considered planning that went in for all force purchases will shift again. all services will take some kind of hit - and we're already seeing that.

Unplanned, unwanted and unsympathetic purchases made outside of the considered force planning process always = something else getting belted.

 

[hauritz]

Time is the issue. It took the RAAF 28 years to become an all F-18 fleet. It may take another 20 years but we might eventually be an all F-35 fleet.

Historically this is the only time I can think of when we have had a reasonably homogeneous fighter fleet.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Historically this is the only time I can think of when we have had a reasonably homogeneous fighter fleet.

Force planning is about balance and impact on all services

bring in extra capability thats unplanned for and it screws everyone else.

thats badness

 

[hauritz]

Force planning is about balance and impact on all services

bring in extra capability thats unplanned for and it screws everyone else.

thats badness

Certainly I think that the decision to buy growler kits may have been rash since it has now committed us to keeping the SHs for a lot longer than planned.

So where does that leave our future force structure?

88 F-35s and 12 EA-18G?

Is that going to be any harder to manage than a 50/50 mix of super hornets and F-35s?

 

[fretburner]

88 F-35s and 12 EA-18G?

Is that going to be any harder to manage than a 50/50 mix of super hornets and F-35s?

Wait up... Were they supposed to retire the EA-18Gs when the F-35 arrives in good numbers? Or perhaps betting on having the EA-35, and then retire the Growlers?

 

[hauritz]

Wait up... Were they supposed to retire the EA-18Gs when the F-35 arrives in good numbers? Or perhaps betting on having the EA-35, and then retire the Growlers?

I imagine there could be a wild weasel F-35 at some point ... but I don't think it is even in the planning stage yet.

 

[aussienscale]

I imagine there could be a wild weasel F-35 at some point ... but I don't think it is even in the planning stage yet.

If you had read my previous post, Initial work has been done on LO EW Pods for the F-35, Spudman is a bit more up to date on the F-35 program and will be alble to comment on the current status of it next time he checks in.

But basically becuase the Growler is really only just basically taking over the role from the Prowler's, I don't see that it would be high on LM's work list with all the other issues they have at the moment, but I have every confidence it will be ready to go when the Growler's are looking a little long in the tooth

Cheers

 

[the road runner]

White paper 2013

Was just watching " The 2013 Defence White Paper: Key issues and challenges"

The 2013 Defence White Paper: Key issues and challenges - Vision - ANU

Was wondering that people think of a quote (at 46 minuets into above link) that Professor Peter Leahy (Lt.General retired) states that the number of JSF should be 75 or 50 JSF and 25 Super Hornets to balance the budget and ensure a balanced defence force.

With the White paper 2013 due will this be all about "cutting the defence force to make budget?"

 

[ADMk2]

Was just watching " The 2013 Defence White Paper: Key issues and challenges"

The 2013 Defence White Paper: Key issues and challenges - Vision - ANU

Was wondering that people think of a quote (at 46 minuets into above link) that Professor Peter Leahy (Lt.General retired) states that the number of JSF should be 75 or 50 JSF and 25 Super Hornets to balance the budget and ensure a balanced defence force.

With the White paper 2013 due will this be all about "cutting the defence force to make budget?"

Cutting an entire brigade from Army, or two frigates and a pair of subs from the navy would help balance the budget too.

Of course it would massively screw up their capability just as this plan would for Air Force.

I'd advocate scrapping the final JSF tranche if things really are that tight (which I don't agree they are) and running the Shornets longer, just as USN will be, but that will have flow-on effects on sustainment though it would save some immediate acquisition costs...

 

[Volkodav]

Cutting an entire brigade from Army, or two frigates and a pair of subs from the navy would help balance the budget too.

Of course it would massively screw up their capability just as this plan would for Air Force.

I'd advocate scrapping the final JSF tranche if things really are that tight (which I don't agree they are) and running the Shornets longer, just as USN will be, but that will have flow-on effects on sustainment though it would save some immediate acquisition costs...

This sort of fits with something I have been toying with for a while.

If you look at the RAAF it has a lot of top end gear to permit it to meet its required capability, this generally means about 100 capable fighter/strike aircraft, a couple of sqn's for MPA, a couple of sqn's for transport and single sqn's for specialist supporting capabilities. Generally speaking the RAAF has pretty much always been able to maintain both a qualitive and quantitive edge regionally and not too shabby extra regionally either.

Now if you look at the Australian Army and RAN you see a different model, very much on the light scale with limited investment in high end capabilities. I am not suggesting that the personnel aren’t well trained and doing a good job, rather that successive Australian Parliaments haven’t looked after them to the same degree as they have the RAAF. Where are the SPGs the Army has needed since WWII, the armoured brigade a past PM thought we had but didn’t? Where are the RANs helicopter equipped patrol vessels? Why does the surface fleet only have four real warships and even then ships that were originally designed as second tier combatants or Patrol Frigates? Why when we only have about a dozen principle surface combatants are any of them second tier at all?

Basically if the RAAF was equipped in the same manner as the Army and RAN then we would see a high low mix of a single sqn of F-16A’s supported by F-5E’s, half a dozen Orions supported by Fokker F-50 MPA’s, a short sqn of C-130s supported by a mixed bag of ex-QANTAS 727’s and Fokkers. Their new generation would likely be a a single sqn of F/A-18F’s supported by Grippens, upgraded Orions supported by C-295 MPA’s with A400M’s, C-295’s and Beech Kingairs making up the transport side.