The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates
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fretburner
Banned Member
Wildcats as SpecOps troop carriers? What's a typical squad size for say, the SAS? Those Wildcats can't carry as many troops as say a Blackhawk right? IIRC, the Blackhawks had 12 troops going into Bin Laden's compound. Not sure if the Wildcat can even carry 10.
UKSF don't just operate the Lynx, it's part of the Joint Special Forces Aviation Wing which includes 7 Squadron RAF in Chinooks, 657 Squadron AAC on the Lynx and 651 Squadron AAC then No 47 Squadron RAF in C-130 I believe. Website could be a pile of crap but IIRC UKSF have definitely been deployed in Sea Kings and Chinooks in the last 30 years depending on theatre of service, but because the a QE could accommodate Chinooks, it'll probably be a toss-up between that and Merlin. Probably with WAH-64D support.
IIRC The Lynx AH9a it's replacing could officially carry 9 troops. From Wiki (source didn't work for me) it says "7 including door gunner", so that'll be 6 then, but i'd be suprised if you couldn't get 1 - 2 more in there. Which doesn't seem so bad, the UKSF budget is huuuuuge so i suspect they could get all 8 Wildcat LAH on an op if they needed them all.
From Wiki (it's a book source, so can't check here) it says "Each squadron consists of approximately 60 men commanded by a major, divided into four troops (each troop being commanded by a captain) and a small headquarters section. Troops usually consist of 16 men, and each patrol within a troop consists of four men"
From AW own brochure on the Wildcat from '09
So at least for regular RN service, it'd hopefully be a pretty decent increase in capability for the Navy.
EDIT: Of course, read anything about UKSF with deep scepticism
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Nice assortment of helicopters on Illustrious for Cougar 12; Sea King, Merlin, Apache and Chinook. But really can't say how suprised I am that there's not a AAW destroyer going with the fleet.
That being said, HMS Dragon is sheduled for her first deployment next year, but surely she'd be compatible to go with the task force on this exercise?
Hmm, well according to the news article where she fired her first Sea Viper missile, she is actually sheduled to go.
HMS Dragon spits Sea Viper fire | Royal Navy
That being said, HMS Dragon is sheduled for her first deployment next year, but surely she'd be compatible to go with the task force on this exercise?
Hmm, well according to the news article where she fired her first Sea Viper missile, she is actually sheduled to go.
HMS Dragon spits Sea Viper fire | Royal Navy
That surely has to be Cougar 12? (Well, Corsican Lion strictly)
Nce little piece saying Dragon will be on TV next year. PR like this is always good....maybe a Bond movie
fretburner
Banned Member
So the Wildcats are going to be there more for fire support and the Chinooks as primary troop carriers. This is very much like that Nat Geo documentary of the SAS taking on the West Side Boys.
A "patrol" is more or less the equivalent of the US's "fire team", then? And probably a "squad" is 2 "patrols", and a "troop" is 4 "squads"?
Nwy... this is a little off topic now
For the RN, the Wildcat isn't going to be used as a troop carrier or SAR anyway.
Well IIRC they're labelled as 'utility' helos so potentially the Wildcat could do anything (interestingly on Wiki it's tagged as a SAR helo too). IMO it'll be ASuW/VERTREP/light utility when something like a Sea King/Merlin isn't neccesary
HMS Diamond shines where (Strike) Eagles dare | Royal Navy
Great to see Diamond doing her stuff + being able to hold her own. Obviously she was going to but it's good to be shown she can.
fretburner
Banned Member
What about taking on a few squadrons?
Do Navies do a Red Storm Rising scenario ever?
Very cool. I learned something new today. Thanks man!
Doubt it, doubt many AAWs can cope with dealing with a few squadrons all at once, I believe the Type 45 is described as being able to "simultaneously track, target and engage the same amount of targets as 5 Type 42 destroyers operating together" so it could certainly do some serious damage.
Either way, it's not especially a comparison as if there was a possibility of wave after wave of fighters that she'd find herself alone without any other assets being available.
Can only deal with what we're given, so until the USAF or USN throws a few squadron at Diamond, we won't ever know.
the concerned
Active Member
How many airforces could throw a couple of squadrons at a naval asset,and those that could would most probably face a large multi national task force with various assets including counter air power.
The case that is commonly presented here is being the protective ship in the Falklands; alone effectively with only four Typhoons and an aerial tanker as potential back up, but not guaranteed as there would be the risk of losing it all. If the Argentines tried to use swarm tactics they could try and wipe her out but I imagine the ship would have plenty of time to prepare and I doubt they would be prepared to waste the bulk of their air assets on one vessel.
If the Falklands were only being defended by the Typhoons and a Daring I would be temped to use submarines. Special forces to take out the Tiffies on the ground and a couple of torpedoes for the Daring. Then again I am not sure what state Argentinas subs are in or whether they can deploy SF.
the concerned
Active Member
Argentina is not in the position to throw anything more than say a couple of flights at a time let alone a squadron or two.plus i'm sure that by the time they launched their fighters and conducted the strike and returned they might find their runway a little bumpy courtesy of a ssn cruise missile strike.how long would it take to reroute a caribean drugs deployment down to the falklands.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/geo-strategic-issues/falklands-tensions-11653/
Anyway, the other day I was looking at replacements for Ocean (I know, I know) and I was checking out BAEs LPH design (i've attached the stats) and pretty much threw the idea out after reading the following
Ocean could officially carry 12 medium helos (or 15 harriers) according to the BBC [1] when she was launched (Wiki puts it at 18), so isn't 6 dropping it far too much? Personally, it seems like a pretty poor design from BAE IMO, although there's no interest in it, you'd think it'd be a bit better than that. The smaller helo capacity doesn't give it anything spectacular in troop numbers but at face value it has a higher vehicle capacity.
Wish we had something like a Mistral or JC1, wouldn't be surprised if that's what the MOD will end up doing; let Ocean leave service and when Albion + Bulwark start getting a bit long in the tooth, combine the 3 ships into 2 LHD. Or at least, use that to defuse people who get a bit itchy about Ocean not having a dedicated replacement.
[1] BBC News | UK | UK's first helicopter attack ship sets sail
EDIT: Just read about when HMS Vanguard collided with the French SSBN Triomphant in '09, holy sh!t!
I'm assuming that was a case of ASW-prevention technology being very effective rather than detection equipment being crap.
Even so, highlights how comparable UK/French sub tech is, if the subs can hit into eachother before realising the other is there.
Anyway, the other day I was looking at replacements for Ocean (I know, I know) and I was checking out BAEs LPH design (i've attached the stats) and pretty much threw the idea out after reading the following
Ok, so I could well be demonstrating severe naivety here, but six!? SIX!? I'm assuming something "medium" would be something like a Merlin?
Ocean could officially carry 12 medium helos (or 15 harriers) according to the BBC [1] when she was launched (Wiki puts it at 18), so isn't 6 dropping it far too much? Personally, it seems like a pretty poor design from BAE IMO, although there's no interest in it, you'd think it'd be a bit better than that. The smaller helo capacity doesn't give it anything spectacular in troop numbers but at face value it has a higher vehicle capacity.
Wish we had something like a Mistral or JC1, wouldn't be surprised if that's what the MOD will end up doing; let Ocean leave service and when Albion + Bulwark start getting a bit long in the tooth, combine the 3 ships into 2 LHD. Or at least, use that to defuse people who get a bit itchy about Ocean not having a dedicated replacement.
[1] BBC News | UK | UK's first helicopter attack ship sets sail
EDIT: Just read about when HMS Vanguard collided with the French SSBN Triomphant in '09, holy sh!t!
I'm assuming that was a case of ASW-prevention technology being very effective rather than detection equipment being crap.
Even so, highlights how comparable UK/French sub tech is, if the subs can hit into eachother before realising the other is there.
To use swarm tactics they would first of all have to buy more aircraft.
Look up how many functioning strike aircraft Argentina has, & how many operational tankers. They couldn't manage swarm tactics in 1982. How could they do it now?
True.
Even so, doesn't seem like the dock is worth that sort of handicapped aviation capacity. But there must be some poor designing going on, I mean a Mistral at "full load" is roughly equivalent to this Ocean devil-spawn so BAE must be able to offer something better than this. Even as kind of an "Ah well, we could do something like this if you want it" thing, it doesn't seem very enticing IMO unless it's dirt cheap.