Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

RegR

Well-Known Member
Chief of Defence gave a pay rise of 5.7%, the first pay rise in four years, to service & civilian personnel in NZDF. However, NZDF have taken away some conditions and increased rents for married quarters to market rents, which in Auckland rents are quite expensive. So the pay rise has some hooks in it and some personnel are going to be worse off.
The payrise was to help improve morale but again benefits have been taken away therefore negating most of the actual payrise. This is all to align the defence force with the civilian market. If defence wants to align with civilians to be 'fair' then pay civilian rates including overtime, which is not/cannot happen.

What people don't understand is that being in the military is not like a regular civilian job so some added 'perks' are nesscessary to attract(and keep) people there in the first place otherwise they could just go get a regular 9 to 5 job (as alot are doing) and earn more for less without all the rules, regulations, duties, time away, messing around, pointless activities, hardships etc etc.

Some people did well out of the payrise like technical trades which is fair to try and compete with civilian equivalents but as you say the increased rent and other downgraded benefits will hurt most average pers and may even force the ones who were on the fence to jump. I heard some officers gained 10-20k extra whilst ordinary ranks got 2-6k and some W/Os actually lost money. Now I don't know if times have changed but I know who I would rather target at keeping, seems all abit backwards to me. Manpower, knowledge then management, bit pointless having all these cheifs with no one to lead or experience to lead them with.
 

Paul80

New Member
CPO communications

Hi to everyone,

Sorry about posting this here. Could not start a new thread.

Wondering if anyone can offer some up-to-date information.

I am thinking of joining the RNZN from the Royal Navy and have a question.

Does a CPO (CO) in the RNZN go to sea or do they remain in shore jobs?
I ask this because in other navy's, once a communicator reaches CPO level there does not appear to be any sea jobs.


Many thanks

Paul
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hi to everyone,

Sorry about posting this here. Could not start a new thread.

Wondering if anyone can offer some up-to-date information.

I am thinking of joining the RNZN from the Royal Navy and have a question.

Does a CPO (CO) in the RNZN go to sea or do they remain in shore jobs?
I ask this because in other navy's, once a communicator reaches CPO level there does not appear to be any sea jobs.


Many thanks

Paul
Paul if you are serious on joining the RNZN from the RN and want the latest information on both recruitment and immigration matters then the following contact would be the best person to touch base with.

Defence Adviser (Navy)
New Zealand High Commission
New Zealand House
80 The Haymarket
London
SW1Y 4TQ
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Has anybody heard anything about the possible SH2G(I) Seasprite buy? It's all gone quiet for the last few months and I realise that it takes time to make a decision one way or the other. Am just slightly curious. :cheers
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Half of patrol fleet tied-up

I see confirmation in latest Navy News of the that HMNZ ships Wellington; Hawea and Pukaki are in 'reduced availability period' - tied-up at DNB. No indication as to how long but there are other activities that may impact personnel availability in varying ways I suspect (1) Te Mana heading back out to soon start work-up (from SARC) & (2) Canterbury now tied-up for 6 months or so while 'remediation' work gets underway.

Given Govt is unlikely to ever pursue a meaningful increase in salaries (esp. ones without an equivalent cuts in allowances & rent increases etc) to improve retention, the only foreseeable thing that will improve retention now it seems is sadly a recession both here & in Aussie!...and only then temporarily because personnel would rather retain job security until hiring starts again! :(
 
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Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I see confirmation in latest Navy News of the that HMNZ ships Wellington; Hawea and Pukaki are in 'reduced availability period' - tied-up at DNB. No indication as to how long but there are other activities that may impact personnel availability in varying ways I suspect (1) Te Mana heading back out to soon start work-up (from SARC) & (2) Canterbury now tied-up for 6 months or so while 'remediation' work gets underway.

Given Govt is unlikely to ever pursue a meaningful increase in salaries (esp. ones without an equivalent cuts in allowances & rent increases etc) to improve retention, the only foreseeable thing that will improve retention now it seems is sadly a recession both here & in Aussie!...and only then temporarily because personnel would rather retain job security until hiring starts again! :(
The defence white paper demanded to much from the NZDF in terms of the fiscal savings it was required to make. By my reckoning defence as been asked to save more than any other government department. I suggest that given the excessively adverse effect on personnel, noting the mining boom, and the requirements of the white paper to save money that the white paper is failing in its objectives. It remains to been seen if the Ampib Task Force will take off but as I expressed in a recent letter to the Minister given the lack of new equipment under the National Government I don't think the the government's committed to the policy objectives in the Defence White paper.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
The defence white paper demanded to much from the NZDF in terms of the fiscal savings it was required to make. By my reckoning defence as been asked to save more than any other government department. I suggest that given the excessively adverse effect on personnel, noting the mining boom, and the requirements of the white paper to save money that the white paper is failing in its objectives. It remains to been seen if the Ampib Task Force will take off but as I expressed in a recent letter to the Minister given the lack of new equipment under the National Government I don't think the the government's committed to the policy objectives in the Defence White paper.
I liked the DWP, but it's important to remember it's only a discussion paper of intentions, it does not guarantee funding nor that any of the new gear will even eventuate!

Totally agree - they've cut the budget too hard but used the normal 'smoke & mirrors' line of "re-allocating resources it from the back-room to the frontline" - what a load of crap! It's just a case of make a big arbitary lump sum cut & tell the NZDF it's up to them how they decide what gets cutback!

It has left the NZDF underfunded and while they mouth of about the new equipment, it must be remembered that the bulk of it was all ordered by the Labour Govt & is only probably still coming due to it being committed too!

Okay to be fair the Govt are following thru with RNZAF pilot training & a lot of infrastructure at Ohakea etc, plus plans are on the table for Navy & Amphib but it's been admitted there's no funding increases going forward so I fully expect to see some of the projects still in planning stages to be deferred!

Whilst Govt is borrowing heavily it's understandable I guess... except perhaps for the $10b for roads of national significance - think that's 'national' as in the party, not the country! ;)
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
On then RAN thread http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/n...navy-discussions-updates-5905-660/#post255513 they have been having a discussion involving OCVs, corvettes and light frigates as possible ASWand escort vessels for their LHDs. Well they were until the Webmaster locked the thread about an hour ago. Anyway they have bought up some interesting points that may be pertinet for the RNZN in its ANZAC FFH replacement. Could the RNZN operate say two GP FFHs with 5in gun, ESSM, ASuW and Harpoon capability and ASW. Two or three corvettes with 3in gun capable of using DART & VULCANO ammo, basic AAW e.g., CIWS, maybe RAM plus Starfire, Stinger or similar, AsuW (such as Penguin missile or similar), full on ASW including a long tail and a helo hangar built for medium sized ASW & ASuW helo such as the Romeo. So the RNZN would have four of five combat capable warships with the corvettes specialising in ASW and escort work as ASW escorts.

The downside of the corvette pointed out in the RAN thread is the lack of long range but couldn't that be addressed by increasing the bunkerage, victualling etc., and attempt mitigating that extra weight by using light weight armoured composite materials in the upper works? That way we could possibly get the range up to the same as the FFHs. Automation would also help with crewing levels. We would also ice strengthen like our OPVs.

The OPC / OPV concept that is being discussed on the RAN thread is possibly using Danish StanFlex modules rather than the USN modules because ofcost and easier utilisation. The argument runs that could arm some of the OPCs with 3in gun capable of using DART & VULCANO ammo and a basic ASW fitout with as Todjaeger suggests
the inclusion of a modular slot (or two) at the stern, for use in supporting MCM and survey missions, or operation of a towed sonar array.
Again ours would have to be ice strengthened and capable of carrying a medium sized helo of the same type operating off the FFHs because the RNZN is only really going to have one type of seagoing helo.

Comments.
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Could the RNZN operate say two GP FFHs with 5in gun, ESSM, ASuW and Harpoon capability and ASW. Two or three corvettes with 3in gun capable of using DART & VULCANO ammo, basic AAW e.g., CIWS, maybe RAM plus Starfire, Stinger or similar, AsuW (such as Penguin missile or similar), full on ASW including a long tail and a helo hangar built for medium sized ASW & ASuW helo such as the Romeo. So the RNZN would have four of five combat capable warships with the corvettes specialising in ASW and escort work as ASW escorts.
I think the corvette concept is a good idea and one I've been thinking about in relation to improving overall combat capability. In terms of the combat capability for ASW capability I'd probably go for modular capability down aft with a Towed Array / Sea Boat / MCM (Using Remus etc) mix. I'd add a couple of 25mm.

If we fit the additional three ships within the current fleet size of 12 vessels we'd need to do something like 2 FFG, 3FFL, 2 OPV / Littoral Warfare Vessel, 1 AOR, 1 LPHD (Long Term), 3 IPV.

If size is a limiting factor and range the critical factor for South Pacific Operations as it has to be then speed is the trade off in order to retain the weapons fit. Realistically keeping up with the ANZAC's surely must be a given so I think realistically were looking at a 3,000 tonne ship with the political risk that it might be considered a viable frigate alternative. But in terms of Helicopter capability I think the trade off that we'd have to loose the heli capability on the OPV other wise the costs really start to increase.

Anyway my two cents
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
If the RNZN was given a choice between 3 - 4 GP FFH/FFG's as ANZAC-class replacements, or 2 FFH/FFG replacements and 3 - 4 modular OCV/corvette-type vessels, I would opt for more frigates.

So far, the RNZN has managed to squeek by with just the two rather low-end FFH's for the past several years. However only having two means that the RNZN will not always have a frigate available for operations, depending on training, maintenance/upgrade cycles, and any planned distant station deployments. Having a pair of frigates and then 3 - 4 smaller vessels would increase the chances of the RNZN being able to deploy something, but an OCV-type would likely be the most available but not necessarily up to a mid or high-end deployment, even if fully kitted out.

If (big if) some of the shortfalls of the Knud Rasmussen-class OPV can be resolved in terms of Oz/Kiwi service needs, then I would really see such vessels more as replacements for the Kiwi OPV's and the Littoral Warfare. As LucasNZ mentioned, one potential concern would be for people to start viewing them as replacements for the frigates.

-Cheers
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If the RNZN was given a choice between 3 - 4 GP FFH/FFG's as ANZAC-class replacements, or 2 FFH/FFG replacements and 3 - 4 modular OCV/corvette-type vessels, I would opt for more frigates.

So far, the RNZN has managed to squeek by with just the two rather low-end FFH's for the past several years. However only having two means that the RNZN will not always have a frigate available for operations, depending on training, maintenance/upgrade cycles, and any planned distant station deployments. Having a pair of frigates and then 3 - 4 smaller vessels would increase the chances of the RNZN being able to deploy something, but an OCV-type would likely be the most available but not necessarily up to a mid or high-end deployment, even if fully kitted out.

If (big if) some of the shortfalls of the Knud Rasmussen-class OPV can be resolved in terms of Oz/Kiwi service needs, then I would really see such vessels more as replacements for the Kiwi OPV's and the Littoral Warfare. As LucasNZ mentioned, one potential concern would be for people to start viewing them as replacements for the frigates.

-Cheers
Agree, I think the extra Frigate would be better for NZ. What do you see as the shortfalls of the Knud Class ? Just at a quick look for NZ, or RAN for that matter, service I see range and in particular speed as being big downers ?

Cheers
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
If the RNZN was given a choice between 3 - 4 GP FFH/FFG's as ANZAC-class replacements, or 2 FFH/FFG replacements and 3 - 4 modular OCV/corvette-type vessels, I would opt for more frigates.

So far, the RNZN has managed to squeek by with just the two rather low-end FFH's for the past several years. However only having two means that the RNZN will not always have a frigate available for operations, depending on training, maintenance/upgrade cycles, and any planned distant station deployments. Having a pair of frigates and then 3 - 4 smaller vessels would increase the chances of the RNZN being able to deploy something, but an OCV-type would likely be the most available but not necessarily up to a mid or high-end deployment, even if fully kitted out.

If (big if) some of the shortfalls of the Knud Rasmussen-class OPV can be resolved in terms of Oz/Kiwi service needs, then I would really see such vessels more as replacements for the Kiwi OPV's and the Littoral Warfare. As LucasNZ mentioned, one potential concern would be for people to start viewing them as replacements for the frigates.

-Cheers
I too would rather see a third frigate rather than 2-3 smaller types as it gives us more options, longer legs(again our isolation is both a blessing and a hinderance) and provides redundancy for the other two.

A frigate tackles the weight, room and edurance problems meaning no worries about helos, systems, hull strengthening, future proofing etc. We have the OPVs to cover smaller jobs and if we need to 'upgun' in this class then it should be when these need replaceing, not another class altogether and then again if a situation is that dodge then just send a frigate.

I beleive we should be looking at a 3rd frigate now also as to help out with escort duties for Australias canberra class on ops as they would probably require a AWD and possibly 2 frigates along with a tanker(again considering Endeavours replacement). With Aus going down to 3 destroyers and 8 frigates in the future, escort duties could prove taxing on their fleet so an ANZAC input could prove helpful.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Agree, I think the extra Frigate would be better for NZ. What do you see as the shortfalls of the Knud Class ? Just at a quick look for NZ, or RAN for that matter, service I see range and in particular speed as being big downers ?

Cheers
I think we need to look beyong a 2003 design which locks us into convention.
You have mentioned shortfalls in speed (17kts) and range (3,000 nm) but there is also no hangar. An increase in hull displacement by an extra 1,000 tonnes would rectify all three shortfalls,
NZ's area of responsibility is huge and there is no doubt in my mind that, given limited hulls, the cost benefit of an air asset is obvious. The enhancement/enablement provided by organic air is compelling.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Agree, I think the extra Frigate would be better for NZ. What do you see as the shortfalls of the Knud Class ? Just at a quick look for NZ, or RAN for that matter, service I see range and in particular speed as being big downers ?

Cheers
The main areas I see a performance shortfall (in terms of RAN/RNZN service needs) are range, max speed, lack of a helicopter hangar, and lack of extra berthing/flex space.

Given that one of the major tasks such vessels would have in RAN and RNZN service would be SAR/constabulary duties, there needs to be sufficient space to hold/house people who have been picked up. These could be people who have been fishing illegally, or the survivors of a maritime disaster. As the USCG and RAN have encountered, SIEV sometimes can have 100+ people aboard. Berthing space for an extra ten people will not do in such instances. More important than that IMO though would be the need for increased food and sanitation services. While under most situations they should not be fully utilized, they still need to be available. To illustrate what I mean, the full complement of a RNZN OPV stands at 49 personnel and has food & stores for ~21 days, which if the people from SIEV 4 were taken aboard, would exhaust the food/water & stores in less than four days. I also have personal experience with how filthy people can get when in a disaster, and shower/sanitation facilities are insufficient... That presents itself can present a significant problem, which would only be compounded by potential short rations and/or long transit times in confined space.

-Cheers
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I have been looking at how the OPC / OPV discussion and corvette discussion has been going in RAN thread and get the impression (rightly or wrongly) that the RAN thread guys are looking at a 1000 tonne OPC which is not going to suit the RNZN.
So this is the start point.
Our current OPV specs are (for HMNZS Otago):
Displacement: 1,900 tonnes
Length Overall: 85 metres
Beam: 14metres
Range: 6000 nautical miles
Speed: Maximum continuous 22 knots
Complement :
Core ships company 35
Flight personnel: 10
Government agencies: 4
Additional personnel: 30
Total: 79
Armament: One 25mm gun and two .50 calibre machine guns
The ship is ice strengthened and has a hangar for the helo. IIRC the hangar is same size as ANZAC Frigate hangar.
Helicopter capability:
OTAGO can embark the KAMAN SH-2G (NZ) Seasprite helicopter onboard.
Source: RNZN - OTAGO Specifications
Yes, the political risk is the most concerning and kiwi pollies would leap upon the corvette replacing the FFH bandwagon real quick, so let's say we get rid of the corvette option and upgrade the kiwi opv options. The consensus appears to be FFGs rather than FFLs.
I think the corvette concept is a good idea and one I've been thinking about in relation to improving overall combat capability. In terms of the combat capability for ASW capability I'd probably go for modular capability down aft with a Towed Array / Sea Boat / MCM (Using Remus etc) mix. I'd add a couple of 25mm.
We could mount the 76mm / 3inch gun capable of using DART & VULCANO ammo up forrard on a new OPV, and a couple of 25mm down aft maybe on top of the hangar. Definitely modular capacity down aft as suggested.
If we fit the additional three ships within the current fleet size of 12 vessels we'd need to do something like 2 FFG, 3FFL, 2 OPV / Littoral Warfare Vessel, 1 AOR, 1 LPHD (Long Term), 3 IPV.
I'd change the fleet mix to: 3 FFG, 5 OPV / Littoral Warfare Vessel, 1 JSS, 1 LHD (13,000 tonne - Long Term), 4 IPV, which would give us a fleet of 14.
If size is a limiting factor and range the critical factor for South Pacific Operations as it has to be then speed is the trade off in order to retain the weapons fit. Realistically keeping up with the ANZAC's surely must be a given so I think realistically were looking at a 3,000 tonne ship with the political risk that it might be considered a viable frigate alternative. But in terms of Helicopter capability I think the trade off that we'd have to loose the heli capability on the OPV other wise the costs really start to increase.
Anyway my two cents
I was comparing the specs of the Otago and Te Kaha and the Otagos beam is only 0.5m less than Te Kahas. With regard to speed through the water the max speed is a function of the hull length at the water line. With the difference in beam between the current FFHs & OPVs being 0.5m then lengthening the OPV hull by say 6m would give an increase in max speed. My suggestion would be to increase the hull length by 8m to 93m and we don't loose the helo capability. With a fleet of 14 there would be 10 flight decks, but remember that not all ships are at sea at the same time and even when they do go to sea they don't always have a helo embarked.
If the RNZN was given a choice between 3 - 4 GP FFH/FFG's as ANZAC-class replacements, or 2 FFH/FFG replacements and 3 - 4 modular OCV/corvette-type vessels, I would opt for more frigates.

So far, the RNZN has managed to squeek by with just the two rather low-end FFH's for the past several years. However only having two means that the RNZN will not always have a frigate available for operations, depending on training, maintenance/upgrade cycles, and any planned distant station deployments. Having a pair of frigates and then 3 - 4 smaller vessels would increase the chances of the RNZN being able to deploy something, but an OCV-type would likely be the most available but not necessarily up to a mid or high-end deployment, even if fully kitted out.

If (big if) some of the shortfalls of the Knud Rasmussen-class OPV can be resolved in terms of Oz/Kiwi service needs, then I would really see such vessels more as replacements for the Kiwi OPV's and the Littoral Warfare. As LucasNZ mentioned, one potential concern would be for people to start viewing them as replacements for the frigates.

-Cheers
Agree, I think the extra Frigate would be better for NZ. What do you see as the shortfalls of the Knud Class ? Just at a quick look for NZ, or RAN for that matter, service I see range and in particular speed as being big downers ?

Cheers
IMHO the Knud Rasmussen doesn't really meet RNZN requirements but its StanFlex modularity is of interest and something to be seriously considered in the Protector OPV replacement. as mentioned above range and speed is significantly less than our current OPVs.
The main areas I see a performance shortfall (in terms of RAN/RNZN service needs) are range, max speed, lack of a helicopter hangar, and lack of extra berthing/flex space.

Given that one of the major tasks such vessels would have in RAN and RNZN service would be SAR/constabulary duties, there needs to be sufficient space to hold/house people who have been picked up. These could be people who have been fishing illegally, or the survivors of a maritime disaster. As the USCG and RAN have encountered, SIEV sometimes can have 100+ people aboard. Berthing space for an extra ten people will not do in such instances. More important than that IMO though would be the need for increased food and sanitation services. While under most situations they should not be fully utilized, they still need to be available. To illustrate what I mean, the full complement of a RNZN OPV stands at 49 personnel and has food & stores for ~21 days, which if the people from SIEV 4 were taken aboard, would exhaust the food/water & stores in less than four days. I also have personal experience with how filthy people can get when in a disaster, and shower/sanitation facilities are insufficient... That presents itself can present a significant problem, which would only be compounded by potential short rations and/or long transit times in confined space.

-Cheers
The food and sanitation situation especially with regard to SIEV would need to be addressed. Given that the Protector OPVs have the hangar then the illegals could be bunked down in there and the helo (if embarked) chained down on the flight deck.

Maybe a design option that could be viable is a son of the Protector OPV with a lengthened hull, ice strengthened, a 3in gun capable of using DART & VULCANO ammo, a couple of 25mm down aft maybe on top of the hangar, basic AAW e.g., CIWS, maybe RAM plus Starfire, Stinger or similar, AsuW (such as Penguin missile or similar), ASW including a long tail, a helo hangar built for medium sized ASW & ASuW helo such as the Romeo, modular capability down aft for a Towed Array / Sea Boat / MCM (Using Remus etc) mix and attempt mitigating that extra weight by using light weight armoured composite materials, or similar, in the upper works. This would also give RAN ability to operate confidently and safely below 48S.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Not to be a buzz kill Ngati but would'nt we get the 2 FFHs we have up to standard first, replace in a timely fashion, try (try) for a 3rd, then keep these updated and crewed before we start talking extra OPVs above and beyond what we currently have that will be more or less mini frigates after all the add ons.

We are struggleing to man, fitout and fund what we have now let alone adding another frigate and 2 upgunned OPV types to the fleet. The frigates are our primary combat vessels and the OPVs role is explained in their acronym, still not sure why we would require mini warships to primarily chase down wayward fishing trawlers, check on DOC islands and visit the islands now and then. If we can't fund them now who's gonna foot the bill (and ongoing extra associated costs) in the future. Was'nt the point of the OPVs to take over the smaller tasks that did not require a overkill combat capable frigate and now we want to turn the OPVs into combat capable vessels in their own right, why exactly? If it requires a big stick then send in the big stick holder, if it just needs a presence then make an appearance, no requirement for a middle man with a slightly smaller stick.

Concentrate effort on one decent capability otherwise we will just revert back to the old days of overstretching with multiple capabilities that we cannot fund accordingly, which in turn diminishes their collective abilities to a point of obsolesence. I'd also think that if we could manage such a potent little navy (3 FFHs, 5 FFLs, 1 LHD etc) then would'nt an ACF be on the cards beforehand but hey we all know how that story goes.

Too many problems not enough problem solving ability.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Not to be a buzz kill Ngati but would'nt we get the 2 FFHs we have up to standard first, replace in a timely fashion, try (try) for a 3rd, then keep these updated and crewed before we start talking extra OPVs above and beyond what we currently have that will be more or less mini frigates after all the add ons.

We are struggleing to man, fitout and fund what we have now let alone adding another frigate and 2 upgunned OPV types to the fleet. The frigates are our primary combat vessels and the OPVs role is explained in their acronym, still not sure why we would require mini warships to primarily chase down wayward fishing trawlers, check on DOC islands and visit the islands now and then. If we can't fund them now who's gonna foot the bill (and ongoing extra associated costs) in the future. Was'nt the point of the OPVs to take over the smaller tasks that did not require a overkill combat capable frigate and now we want to turn the OPVs into combat capable vessels in their own right, why exactly? If it requires a big stick then send in the big stick holder, if it just needs a presence then make an appearance, no requirement for a middle man with a slightly smaller stick.

Concentrate effort on one decent capability otherwise we will just revert back to the old days of overstretching with multiple capabilities that we cannot fund accordingly, which in turn diminishes their collective abilities to a point of obsolesence. I'd also think that if we could manage such a potent little navy (3 FFHs, 5 FFLs, 1 LHD etc) then would'nt an ACF be on the cards beforehand but hey we all know how that story goes.

Too many problems not enough problem solving ability.
Something which people tend to overlook, is the amount of time involved in effecting change in a naval force/fleet. Using the ADF as an example, the average time from initial programme definition to IOC of the first example is ~14 years. Part of the interest in discussing some of these items, is that the RAN seems to be at the initial programme definition stage. This means that if the NZDF/RNZN might be interested in the ADF/RAN programme output, now would be a good time to have some trans-Tasman involvement, so that the output is more familiar to and inline with Kiwi service needs.

Take the 3rd frigate as an example, unless the RNZN opted to purchase a 2nd hand frigate which became available, then the requirements for the new-build would need to be spec'd out. Depending on what those requirements were, and which yards around the world were building what designs, then a decision today to add a 3rd frigate might result in that 3rd frigate entering service in as little as ~5 years or so.

OTOH if it takes some time for frigate requirements to be decided upon in NZ, then the selection and negotiation process to get a yard to build the chosen design, etc it could be a decade before the first steel is cut for the 3rd frigate, and another 3+ years before entering service.

Given that HMNZS Te Kaha was commissioned in 1997 and is expected to be replaced in ~2030, she is at her Mid Life Update point now. I would certainly want updates and upgrades done to ensure safe, reliable service for the rest of her career. Part of those updates and upgrades can also be to build up knowledge and skills for what sort of additional systems are desired or required aboard the ANZAC-class replacement. If the 3rd frigate starts now and does take ~14 years for requirements to be defined, decisions made, negotiations done, and construction to be done, then the 3rd RNZN frigate would be entering service in late 2026/early 2027. Just ahead of the current schedule for the RNZN frigate replacement programme, and about 2 - 3 years after the expected 1st delivery from the RAN's SEA 5000 ANZAC-class frigate replacement programme.

As things stand now with sending in 'the big stick' when needed... The RNZN only has two such 'big sticks' and their relative size is getting smaller day by day. Part of the interest in a modular OPV-like replacement which can be quickly/easily up-armed to a degree is to provide additional vessels which can be deployed if/when things go pear-shaped. At present the RNZN always has a vessel which could be deployed, be it an increasingly obsolescent FFH which would likely be under-armed in a high risk enviro, or an OPV, which is under-armed for medium risk enviros as well. In a decade though having more assets which can be deployed could very well be important.

-Cheers
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Not to be a buzz kill Ngati but would'nt we get the 2 FFHs we have up to standard first, replace in a timely fashion, try (try) for a 3rd, then keep these updated and crewed before we start talking extra OPVs above and beyond what we currently have that will be more or less mini frigates after all the add ons.

We are struggleing to man, fitout and fund what we have now let alone adding another frigate and 2 upgunned OPV types to the fleet. The frigates are our primary combat vessels and the OPVs role is explained in their acronym, still not sure why we would require mini warships to primarily chase down wayward fishing trawlers, check on DOC islands and visit the islands now and then. If we can't fund them now who's gonna foot the bill (and ongoing extra associated costs) in the future. Was'nt the point of the OPVs to take over the smaller tasks that did not require a overkill combat capable frigate and now we want to turn the OPVs into combat capable vessels in their own right, why exactly? If it requires a big stick then send in the big stick holder, if it just needs a presence then make an appearance, no requirement for a middle man with a slightly smaller stick.

Concentrate effort on one decent capability otherwise we will just revert back to the old days of overstretching with multiple capabilities that we cannot fund accordingly, which in turn diminishes their collective abilities to a point of obsolesence. I'd also think that if we could manage such a potent little navy (3 FFHs, 5 FFLs, 1 LHD etc) then would'nt an ACF be on the cards beforehand but hey we all know how that story goes.

Too many problems not enough problem solving ability.
Whilst I agree getting things upto date with the existing ANZAC's is important with just two or even three Frigates New Zealand won't have enough vessels to cover all contingencies. Acquiring an Upgraded OPV / Corvette I feel provides a balance in capabilities in order to maintain and develop the Joint Task Force while carry out EEZ patrols. I don't think upgrading the capability of the OPV is some thing to be ignored, especially when considered against what the USCG is proposing with its offshore patrol cutter. Upgrading the OPV's won't result in overkill given the weight limitations will limit what can be done, but making the most of existing assets seems to me a cost effective way of improving capability in the RNZN.

Todjaeger is right having the conversation now is important given the design life on the OPV was about 25 years.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Not to be a buzz kill Ngati but would'nt we get the 2 FFHs we have up to standard first, replace in a timely fashion, try (try) for a 3rd, then keep these updated and crewed before we start talking extra OPVs above and beyond what we currently have that will be more or less mini frigates after all the add ons.

We are struggleing to man, fitout and fund what we have now let alone adding another frigate and 2 upgunned OPV types to the fleet. The frigates are our primary combat vessels and the OPVs role is explained in their acronym, still not sure why we would require mini warships to primarily chase down wayward fishing trawlers, check on DOC islands and visit the islands now and then. If we can't fund them now who's gonna foot the bill (and ongoing extra associated costs) in the future. Was'nt the point of the OPVs to take over the smaller tasks that did not require a overkill combat capable frigate and now we want to turn the OPVs into combat capable vessels in their own right, why exactly? If it requires a big stick then send in the big stick holder, if it just needs a presence then make an appearance, no requirement for a middle man with a slightly smaller stick.

Concentrate effort on one decent capability otherwise we will just revert back to the old days of overstretching with multiple capabilities that we cannot fund accordingly, which in turn diminishes their collective abilities to a point of obsolesence. I'd also think that if we could manage such a potent little navy (3 FFHs, 5 FFLs, 1 LHD etc) then would'nt an ACF be on the cards beforehand but hey we all know how that story goes.

Too many problems not enough problem solving ability.
What I am looking at Reg is long term planning. The FFHs are due for replacement around 2025 - 28, give or take. Lucas has pointed out the Protector OPVs have a 25 year life span and as he and Tod have said this is long term. We would want replacement OPC / OPVs designed, built and achieving IOC before the Otago and Wellington are due to be paid off for good. I fully understand the problems the RNZN and NZDF face at the moment, but a lot can and probably will change in the intervening years. My own opinion is that the threats will increase, become more open and volatile, with the South Pacific not being immune. As pointed out by Tod this conversation needs to happen now because the time involved in a Naval Vessel replacement project is long.

The main reason why our current OPVs have the armament they have is political pacifist. Most of those pollies have gone and so NZDF theoretically have a better chance of obtaining a better armament fitout on replacement OPV / OPC. From what I understand a 3in / 76mm main gun with DART & VULCANO ammo has punch of a 5in / 127mm gun. With regard to the force structure I suggested, the Canterbury will have to be replaced around 2025 - 28, the Endeavour needs replacing now and the understanding is that the NZG is looking at a JSS type solution. If the SH2G(I) Seasprites are bought, they'll need replacing around 2030. Navantia can do a 13,000 tonne build of the Canberra class LHD which would make sensefor the RNZN. The RNZN and RAN are drawing even more closer as evidenced by the recent ministerial joint statement:
Minister for Defence – Joint Media Release – Australian and New Zealand Defence Ministers boost ANZAC Defence cooperation
16 November 2012

Australian Minister for Defence Stephen Smith and New Zealand Minister of Defence Dr Jonathan Coleman met today in Perth for the Annual Australia-New Zealand Defence Ministers’ meeting.

The Ministers shared perspectives on regional and global security issues, identified areas of further practical Defence cooperation and acknowledged the ultimate sacrifice made by Australian and New Zealand defence personnel in Afghanistan.

Strengthening the Australia-New Zealand Defence Relationship

The Ministers considered the progress of implementation of the 2011 Review of the Australia New Zealand Defence Relationship which they endorsed in January 2012.

Ministers agreed to deepen practical cooperation by:

Increasing collaboration between the two Navies regarding sealift and afloat support. We have agreed to a mutual sealift cooperation program. This will allow for cross crewing of Royal Australian Navy and Royal New Zealand Navy vessels and afloat support to each other’s fleets.

New Zealand participating with embedded observers in the 2013 iteration of the biennial Australia-United States exercise, TALISMAN SABRE 2013 with the aim of full participation from 2015 onwards;

Australia hosting a 1.5 Track dialogue in Canberra in December on common security challenges;

Agreeing to complementary personnel exchanges, such as New Zealand’s secondment to the Australian Civil Military Centre;

Collaborating on Pacific maritime security, in dialogue with partners in the region.

Enhanced maritime cooperation

Consistent with ongoing bilateral maritime and humanitarian assistance and disaster relief cooperation the Ministers today announced the next phase in maritime capability sharing.

Following on from successful secondments of New Zealand crew on Australian warships , Australia will provide seconded crew to Royal New Zealand Navy over the course of 2013.

“This is a practical program that enhances maritime interoperability,” Minister Smith said.

Australia and New Zealand’s shared interests in the region

The successful conclusion of the East Timor national elections in July this year marked a turning point for our operations in that country. After six years in East Timor, we are now planning the drawdown of the International Stabilisation Force in parallel with the planned drawdown of the United Nations mission.

In light of continued stability in the Solomon Islands, Ministers looked forward to the withdrawal of Defence contributions to the Regional Assistance Mission to Solomon Islands, expected in the second half of 2013.

Ministers acknowledged the close cooperation between Australia and New Zealand in support of the recent Papua New Guinea National Elections. New Zealand provided important rotary wing support to the Australian-led operation, which contributed significantly to the conduct of their election. The success of this combined operation highlighted the strength of the relationship and provides a model for future regional defence cooperation.

Dr Coleman said “the close Australia-New Zealand defence relationship has increased our capabilities to meet common security challenges, and we are committed to working to build on past success.”

Ministers reiterated their commitment to long-term security cooperation with regional neighbours and welcomed Tonga’s offer to hold a Pacific Defence Ministers’ meeting early in 2013.

Mr Smith said “the forthcoming South Pacific Defence Minister’s meeting reflects both Australia and New Zealand’s commitment to work closely with our Pacific Island partners to further strengthen regional security.”

Ministers discussed Australia’s plans for a Pacific Maritime Security Program to replace the Pacific Patrol Boat Program. Ministers agreed Australia and New Zealand would continue to collaborate on Pacific maritime security, working all the time in close partnership with Pacific Island countries.

Australia and New Zealand’s Interests in the wider world

Mr Smith updated Dr Coleman on the progress in developing the 2013 Defence White Paper announced in May this year. Ministers also discussed strategic developments in the Asia-Pacific and affirmed Australia and New Zealand’s commitment to work closely with regional partners, including through the ASEAN Defence Ministers’ Meeting Plus process.

Media Note:

When available, imagery can be found at All Images - FotoWeb 7.0

Source: http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/2012/....ce-cooperation/
Accessed 17/11/2012
So IMHO the 13,000 tonne Canberra class LHD, or more accurately an upgraded version, is a viable option. The question was asked on the RAN thread if the two navies would become one. Don't think so but anything is possible. Finally the FFL discussion on RAN is now talking of sea control corvettes and the opportunities they offer. http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/n...navy-discussions-updates-5905-661/#post255591

So let the discussion continue.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Acquiring an Upgraded OPV / Corvette I feel provides a balance in capabilities in order to maintain and develop the Joint Task Force while carry out EEZ patrols. I don't think upgrading the capability of the OPV is some thing to be ignored, especially when considered against what the USCG is proposing with its offshore patrol cutter. Upgrading the OPV's won't result in overkill given the weight limitations will limit what can be done, but making the most of existing assets seems to me a cost effective way of improving capability in the RNZN.
Attempting any sort of significant upgrade programme to the current Protector-class OPV's IMO would be a bit of a waste. In part this is because the vessels themselved ended up ~300 tonnes overweight due to the ice-strengthening. Equally significant is the design layout precludes any sort of significant upgrades without significant yard time and reallocating internal compartment layout and structures. If one looks at the drawings for the Protector-class found here, when one compares the layout of Deck 01 immediately beneath the mounting of the 25 mm cannon on Deck 02, one sees that there is an HVAC unit and a centre-line passageway leading to the ship's small arms storage and a washroom, as well as compartment walls, part of the ship's magazine, and a ship's ladder down to Deck 1. In order for any sort of larger mounting to be installed, the appropriate through-deck penetrating structures would need to be put in where those various compartments are, and those compartments and the associated wiring and equipment will themselves need to be relocated. Not something which is going to have a positive impact on already overweight vessels.

Also looking at the outline of the OPV, I do not really see any sufficiently large and flat area where a non deck-penetrating mount could be installed, since those areas are already set aside for the helipad, RHIB launch/recovery, etc. It might be possible to install some mini-Typhoon mountings on the Bridge Deck... Honestly though I suspect the viable upgrades for the Protector-class OPV are mostly going to be in the sensor and electronics areas.

What I am looking at Reg is long term planning. The FFHs are due for replacement around 2025 - 28, give or take. Lucas has pointed out the Protector OPVs have a 25 year life span and as he and Tod have said this is long term. We would want replacement OPC / OPVs designed, built and achieving IOC before the Otago and Wellington are due to be paid off for good. I fully understand the problems the RNZN and NZDF face at the moment, but a lot can and probably will change in the intervening years. My own opinion is that the threats will increase, become more open and volatile, with the South Pacific not being immune. As pointed out by Tod this conversation needs to happen now because the time involved in a Naval Vessel replacement project is long.

The main reason why our current OPVs have the armament they have is political pacifist. Most of those pollies have gone and so NZDF theoretically have a better chance of obtaining a better armament fitout on replacement OPV / OPC. From what I understand a 3in / 76mm main gun with DART & VULCANO ammo has punch of a 5in / 127mm gun. With regard to the force structure I suggested, the Canterbury will have to be replaced around 2025 - 28, the Endeavour needs replacing now and the understanding is that the NZG is looking at a JSS type solution. If the SH2G(I) Seasprites are bought, they'll need replacing around 2030. Navantia can do a 13,000 tonne build of the Canberra class LHD which would make sensefor the RNZN. The RNZN and RAN are drawing even more closer as evidenced by the recent ministerial joint statement:

So IMHO the 13,000 tonne Canberra class LHD, or more accurately an upgraded version, is a viable option. The question was asked on the RAN thread if the two navies would become one. Don't think so but anything is possible. Finally the FFL discussion on RAN is now talking of sea control corvettes and the opportunities they offer. http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/n...navy-discussions-updates-5905-661/#post255591

So let the discussion continue.
Given a choice, I would rather NZ look to Australian or ASEAN yards for any future large vessel builds, rather than Europe. South Korea is capable of rapid construction of quality vessels at cost effective prices. Depending on the path the Philippine shipbuilding industry takes, it might be able to approach South Korea in quality at even lower build costs. Given that both nations are considerably closer to NZ (and that NZ is more likely to directly interact with...) establishing a better military and industrial relationship IMO would be sensible. Especially if is reduces the cost NZ spends to import a large military-use vessel.

As for looking at and discussing some of these ideas... I have the unfortunate feeling that the NZDF is being (or perhaps has been) setup for falling off another financial cliff by Gov't. Again. Looking at the expected timeframes, from my figures, it looks like the RNZN is expecting to replace the ANZAC-class FFH ~2030, with the Protector-class OPV's reaching their respective 25 year service lives between 2030 - 2035, depending on when their "clocks" are considered to have started. While I have not come across a reliable service life date for Canterbury, I expect that it could last ~25 years, possibly less given some of it's limitations as a sealift vessel. What that means is that the RNZN is likely looking at regenerating virtually the entire surface fleet except for the AOR, within a ~5 year span. Unfortunately I suspect the costs for that will be a bit much for the NZDF to handle all at once if the budgeting is like it currently is now. This might be easier to bear if some of the vessels get replaced a little earlier.

Also, I went back again and compared the Knud Rasmussen-class OPV to the Protector-class OPV and several things stood out to me. While I lack answers to the questions, whatever the answers are, they may prove illuminating.

In terms of displacement, the two designs are comparable, with the Danish OPV displacing ~41 tonnes less. The Danish OPV is considerably shorter, being ~13 m shorter. The beam of the two ships is again comparable, being ~14.6 m vs. 14 m. The Danish vessel has a deeper draught by ~1.3 m. Something which I find particularly noteworthy is that the diesels aboard the Danish OPV generate ~5,440 kW, with the diesels aboard the Kiwi OPV generate nearly twice that output, at ~10,800 kW. That sort of power generation difference could certainly explain the max speed difference.

Where I ended up with questions which I lack answers to is as follows. If the Danish vessel has roughly the same displacement as the Kiwi OPV, but is 13 m shorter, with engines that generate half the power output (and would presumably be smaller/lower displacement than those in the Kiwi vessel) and also only has ~half the range, what is taking up all that displacement aboard the Danish vessel.

Granted, some of that displacement likely is taken up by then better sensors and electronics, as well as the improved armament if fitted with some of the StanFlex modules. The SB90E SAR vessel aboard a Knud Rasmussen-class will take up a further ~7 tons. In further reading, it appears that the Danish OPV's are capable of functioning as light icebreakers, breaking 70 cm of fjord ice vs. the Lloyds ice class 1C requirement for 40 cm of the Kiwi OPV's. What I wonder is to what degree the Danish OPV's had been ice-strengthened increasing the displacement...

It might be possible for a revised OPV, combining some of the features of the Protector and Knud Rasmussen-class vessels. For instance, take the Knud Rasmussen design and increase the hull length by ~15 - 20 m (total length of 85 - 90 m). This increased length should allow sufficient space for a helicopter hangar (and a hangar magazine, something lacking in the Protector-class design), as well as increased space for additional fuel/stores bunkerage. Increase the number of bunks available for crew, as well as extra bunks for supercargo. Increase the number and/or output of the machinery, while reducing the ice strengthening down to Lloyds ice class 1C, and increase the number of StanFlex slots by adding one or two additional at the stern for possible MCM, survey or other work.

I would not be surprised if the displacement of a Knud Rasmussen-class OPV at full load, but only ice strengthened to class 1C would have a displacement of ~1,560 tonnes. While such changes like listed above would likely still result in a design being over ~2,000 tonnes, it might not be grossly over.

-Cheers
 
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