Iran Invasion soon ?

surpreme

Member
US no plans for invasion

There is no plan for a land invasion like Iraq and Afghan. But are plans for a air war which can cause alot of damage. But a ground war will cause headaches for any General who will lead the Operation. For one thing Iranian has lots of manpower for a ground war. This is one of Iranian strengths it has a large paramilitary force that trains for a guerilla type war. Not to add in the fact that the Iranian have high moral when fighting in a land war example Iran-Iraq war it had limited leadership but used religion to its advantage. I don't see alot Iranian surrendering alot with just face death. US military intell already know the Iranian ground forces not the mention the IRGC with fight to the end. Just as I reading someone post a ground war with Iran will not be a piece of cake.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
But are plans for a air war which can cause alot of damage.
It really depends on who is conducting the air war doesn't it? For obvious reasons the Israelis won't be able to wage a full scale air campaign lasting for an extended period and there is a limit to the damage they can inflict. But if the USAF and USN were to get involved than things would be profoundly differerent.

Not to add in the fact that the Iranian have high moral when fighting in a land war example Iran-Iraq war it had limited leadership but used religion to its advantage.
Actually, it did not have a 'limited' leadership and though religon was used as a unifying factor, did not prove decisive. Due to the realisation that there was a shortage of trained leaders, numerous army and air force officers who had been jailed after the revolution were released by the mullahs. These were men who had trained in U.S. establishments as opposed to politicaly reliable men who had been given positions of command by the mullahs. One of the many reasons why Iran was able to starve off defeat for so long, despite facing an Iraq which had the support of most of the Arab world and other countries, was because it had a cadre of trained professionals, not all of whom had left Iran after the revolution. From a tactical viewpoint, especially if you examine the battles fought around the approaches to Basra, it was the Iranians who displayed more tactical proficiency, but were bogged down by logistical problems and terrain. Given the over all advantages they had, the Iraqis should have perfomed much better than they did as they were not constrained by the kinds of problems the Iranians were facing.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
There is no plan for a land invasion like Iraq and Afghan. But are plans for a air war which can cause alot of damage. But a ground war will cause headaches for any General who will lead the Operation. For one thing Iranian has lots of manpower for a ground war. This is one of Iranian strengths it has a large paramilitary force that trains for a guerilla type war. Not to add in the fact that the Iranian have high moral when fighting in a land war example Iran-Iraq war it had limited leadership but used religion to its advantage. I don't see alot Iranian surrendering alot with just face death. US military intell already know the Iranian ground forces not the mention the IRGC with fight to the end. Just as I reading someone post a ground war with Iran will not be a piece of cake.
If by invasion you mean an occupation, then you are correct that there are no executable plans.

But something along the lines of a giant raid to take out the nuclear facilities and then fall back is certainly possible, and very likely the plans exist. The key is not to stay long enough for them to bring their numbers to bear. But if the opportunity exists for a Cannae, don’t refuse it.
 

2007yellow430

Active Member
I've just read the entire thread. What I noticed is that just about everyone assumed the Iran violated the NPT . Has anyone here actually read it? I think it should be required reading. There are several components, and some of those components must be agreed to and ratified by the country. Iran signed the basic treaty which guaranteed them the inalienable right to refine the fuel. The signed but did not ratify the supplemental inspection protocall which would require them to provide additional inspection. As far as I can tell, they have complied with the NPT.

From what I can see an invasion would be terrible for everyone involved.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
From what I can see an invasion would be terrible for everyone involved.
Mosy definitely, my take on the issue is that the reasons provided by Israel and the U.S. for wanting to stop a nuclear Iran is in reality a smokescreen for other reasons. Upon close scrutiny, the often peddled party line that a nuclear armed Iran would pose a threat to the 'free world' and would lead to other regional countries deciding to also acquire nukes, does not make sense.

The Middle East is already an unstable region as a result of the 'Arab Spring' [which took many countries by surprise and effected their regional influence] and has not fully recovered from the Iraq invasion. Strikes on Iran which would inevitably lead to Iranian retaliation and in turn greater U.S. military involvement, would in the long term prove disastrous for the region and the world. As it is, the effects on Syria are already being felt in Lebanon and the final settlement of the longstanding Palestinian/Israeli issue over occupied Palestiian land remains unresolved. It would be nice to think that countries have actually learnt from their mistakes, especially given that problems that have resulted from wars that were fought decades ago continue to pose a major problem...
 
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an94stalker

New Member
Iranians by and large like americans and aren't that religious. (checkout rick steves iran documentary) So although as a conflict it will be at least four times bigger, I don't think it will be worse than iraq which was a worse case scenario and told us how not to invade and occupy a country. The u.s has learnt alot since then.

Main problem is there is unlikely ever to be enough political capital to muster a hundreds of thousands large invasion force. Even if the next president is republican.

A bombing without an invasion would at best buy a little time. The only way I can see iran not getting a nuke is if a scary person like sarah palin becomes president. If iran is realistically threatened with an invasion, they will capitulate to all demands, and the regime will survive, which is its primary concern.

But with the u.s becoming energy secure soon, and terrorism being seen as a constant neverending threat fought at a low intensity level. There seems to be little reason why the u.s should continue large scale involvements in the middle east. (And increasing u.s hostility to the muslim world due to islamofacism) Likely the continuing recession in the u.s will push the u.s further away from any largescale military action. If a depression happens though, all bets are off as a semiradical leader could become president.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Iranians by and large like americans and aren't that religious. (checkout rick steves iran documentary) So although as a conflict it will be at least four times bigger, I don't think it will be worse than iraq
However religious or irreligious the average Iranian is, & however much they like Americans, will not make any difference to their reaction to an invasion. They'd fight hard, very hard, & even the greatest American-lovers in the country would revile the USA.

Americans were greeted as liberators by many Iraqis in 2003. That is unlikely to happen in Iran. There is no single dictator, no individual & his family & cronies looting, raping & murdering for fun. Iran has an indigenous & fairly power structure, in which, despite its numerous evils, many individuals & groups have a stake. Most Iraqis belong to religious & ethnic groups (Shi'a, Kurds) which were excluded from the power structure, actively discriminated against, & violently repressed. Most Iranians are Shi'a, & either Farsi (Persian - 50%) or Azeri (half the rest), & those two groups run the country.

Iran would be harder than Iraq, much, much harder.
 

the concerned

Active Member
what i don't understand is why can't the gcc build a large oil terminal on the west side of Saudia arabia and take the threat from the persian gulf out of any future conflicts.That takes Irans a game threat out in one fowl swoop.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
what i don't understand is why can't the gcc build a large oil terminal on the west side of Saudia arabia and take the threat from the persian gulf out of any future conflicts.That takes Irans a game threat out in one fowl swoop.
You mean Yanbu on the Red Sea? Handles up to 4.5 MMBPD (million barrels per day), slightly over half their exports, most of which goes to Europe. There is also a pipeline to an export terminal on the other side of the UAE on the Indian Ocean.

The limitations lie in getting the oil to the port. Not all the oil fields in the east are interconnected with pipelines capable of handling their full production. The pipelines and pumping stations themselves are also vulnerable to attack.

Besides, Saudi Arabia is less than half of the oil exports from the Persian Gulf. There are also the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Iraq, Qatar, Oman, and Bahrain, who total more than Saudi Arabia. There are also LNG and LPG exports.
 

lucinator

New Member
I've just read the entire thread. What I noticed is that just about everyone assumed the Iran violated the NPT . Has anyone here actually read it? I think it should be required reading. There are several components, and some of those components must be agreed to and ratified by the country. Iran signed the basic treaty which guaranteed them the inalienable right to refine the fuel. The signed but did not ratify the supplemental inspection protocall which would require them to provide additional inspection. As far as I can tell, they have complied with the NPT.

From what I can see an invasion would be terrible for everyone involved.
You might want to read some of IAEA's reports on Iran. Some of the things detailed in those reports are definitely in violation of the NPT.
 

an94stalker

New Member
Here's a qoute from an article i can't link to.
"This overarching problem is accentuated by the fact that everybody in the Middle East—our friends, foes, and folks in between—has correctly concluded that the administration has begun America’s disengagement from the region, on a scale unseen since the days of the British withdrawal from “East of Suez.” This has manifested itself in virtually every facet of our Middle East policy, from our failure to maintain any American military presence in Iraq and the consequent loss of diplomatic and economic influence in Baghdad; to Washington’s unwillingness to rally the American public to support our military efforts in Afghanistan and its repeated snubs of our strongest traditional Middle East ally, Israel; to our leading from behind on Libya and the total failure to lead from any direction on Syria; and last but not least, to our timidity in confronting the Iranian nuclear weapons program. As a result, the Middle East elites and the proverbial “Arab street” have concluded that the U.S. is a waning power, Israel’s future is one of a besieged state that someday may disappear from the regional chessboard, and Iran has an excellent chance of becoming a regional hegemon, to be feared and placated."
And I'd say it goes further back to the iraq and afghanistan invasions, post 9/11 the military commitments were only a fraction of what the u.s was politically capable at the time. So barring a leader like Sarah Palin, Iran is getting that nuke cause it knows u.s hasn't got the political will to stop them.

Best chance we have now is kicking the can down the road. If next administration bombs iran heavily or more. This will buy enough time for the next administration, where a leader like sarah palin might come into the picture. She could muster a credible invasion force, which if used as a threat, would make iran surrender to all demands. Granted probably only as long as the threat of invasion loomed.

However religious or irreligious the average Iranian is, & however much they like Americans, will not make any difference to their reaction to an invasion. They'd fight hard, very hard, & even the greatest American-lovers in the country would revile the USA.

Americans were greeted as liberators by many Iraqis in 2003. That is unlikely to happen in Iran. There is no single dictator, no individual & his family & cronies looting, raping & murdering for fun. Iran has an indigenous & fairly power structure, in which, despite its numerous evils, many individuals & groups have a stake. Most Iraqis belong to religious & ethnic groups (Shi'a, Kurds) which were excluded from the power structure, actively discriminated against, & violently repressed. Most Iranians are Shi'a, & either Farsi (Persian - 50%) or Azeri (half the rest), & those two groups run the country.

Iran would be harder than Iraq, much, much harder.
Iraq was invaded and occupied by a very hobbled u.s military and a very incompetent state department, and it was pretty easy. So as long as the iran invasion is of a reasonable size and the state department is semi-competent, I don't think it will be difficult. Iranians standing their ground will just mean dead iranians in the face of superior u.s firepower, skill and morale. And I repeat the u.s has learned alot from the iraq invasion and occupation experience which will make them even more effective. And let's not forget what the iraq war has taught iranians, mainly that resisting a u.s invasion and occupation will only make iranians suffer more and is doomed to failure. And generally speaking a u.s occupation isn't that bad. And iranians will realise this as they have a significantly higher literacy rate than Iraqui's, interestingly at almost 99% for 15-24 year olds. (which tells us how sophisticated the current generation is)

The fact the regime has alot of support by it's people makes things easier not harder. The regime will cooperate with a u.s invasion force because it's leadership wants to survive. In iraq the u.s presumably viewed the existing leadership as too despised to make a good partner, this made things more difficult. In an Iran invasion, Khomeni doesn't have to hang and the existing regime doesn't need to be destroyed. The main aim would be to make the existing regime not develop nukes and not to attack the u.s, a goal that wouldn't be difficult if there's an army parked in the country.

Also ironically, the iranian peoples desire to be a hegemonic power in their region would never be closer to being granted, once they have the ear of the u.s and their cooperation naturally evolved into an alliance. I'd prefer iran as an ally over saudia arabia. (or as a mid east 'leader') Also if islam is going to be reformed a good starting point would be the sunni-shiite conflict. If they can't stop killing each other, then there's no chance in trying to stop them killing us. (israel included)
 
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the concerned

Active Member
I still thnk that an invasion is not necessary a major strike campaign yes invasion no unless not to far from Pakistani border there's 2 bases with mainly F-7 fighters in it .I personnaly capture these bases 1 to create a front away from the persian gulf and 2 to have a way of conducting operations further in Iran. I know this would be extremely difficult but i do think this is a good option.
 

Lcf

Member
...

I don't think they'll be any attack on Iran any time soon, let alone invasion. No matter how superior American army is compared to Iranian, Iran's still a country larger than both Iraq and Afghan combined in every possible way and capable of creating chaos throughout the entire Middle East. Sure, they can't hope to wipe out the entire carrier strike group but on the long run be sure to see thousands of dead Americans & allies, not to mention loss of equipment and damage to infrastructure measured in billions of dollars all over the region and since US wages its wars based on public support back home, you can be sure you won't see any new war any time soon because as far as I can tell the only thing an average American cares about right now is how to increase his constantly decreasing salary.
 
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My2Cents

Active Member
<<Political diatribe deleted>>
Iraq was invaded and occupied by a very hobbled u.s military and a very incompetent state department, and it was pretty easy. So as long as the iran invasion is of a reasonable size and the state department is semi-competent, I don't think it will be difficult. Iranians standing their ground will just mean dead iranians in the face of superior u.s firepower, skill and morale. And I repeat the u.s has learned alot from the iraq invasion and occupation experience which will make them even more effective. And let's not forget what the iraq war has taught iranians, mainly that resisting a u.s invasion and occupation will only make iranians suffer more and is doomed to failure. And generally speaking a u.s occupation isn't that bad. And iranians will realise this as they have a significantly higher literacy rate than Iraqui's, interestingly at almost 99% for 15-24 year olds. (which tells us how sophisticated the current generation is)
The US has learned a lot, but so have their opponents. The Iranian forces will refuse go head-to-head with the US forces mechanized units in the open, but fight in the urban areas, or hide and wait to attack the vulnerable support units that follow. It won’t be like OIF in 2003, but like the later years in Iraq and Afghanistan. You will probably also see extensive use of suicide bombers targeting patrols and civil administration, plus targeted assassinations on anyone cooperating.

Failure is a matter of perspective. The US is generally seen to have failed in Iraq, and is failing in Afghanistan, but was not defeated in either country. You don’t defeat the US militarily, you just outlast them politically to win. Which is pure SunTzu.
The fact the regime has alot of support by it's people makes things easier not harder. The regime will cooperate with a u.s invasion force because it's leadership wants to survive. In iraq the u.s presumably viewed the existing leadership as too despised to make a good partner, this made things more difficult. In an Iran invasion, Khomeni doesn't have to hang and the existing regime doesn't need to be destroyed. The main aim would be to make the existing regime not develop nukes and not to attack the u.s, a goal that wouldn't be difficult if there's an army parked in the country.
It is not in the regimes best interest to cooperate with a US occupation, quite the opposite in fact -- meekly give in to the people they have demonized for so long would make them look weak, which is political (and probably physical as well) suicide. So they will go underground and outlast you, then surface when you pull out and proclaim they beat the US, with a certain amount of legitimacy.

The people of Iran may not like their present government, but it is not a dictatorship controlled by a hated minority group like in Iraq. The dislike is centered on individual members on the government, much like your dislike of Obama. From the point of view of invading Iran, think of it as more like a large dysfunctional family – they fight with each other all the time, but god help anyone, like the police, who attempts to intervene because they will all attack the intervener. In an invasion the Iranian government will not cooperate, will not really fall, and the invasion will cement support from the vast majority of the population firmly behind the hidden government for the duration of the occupation.
Also ironically, the iranian peoples desire to be a hegemonic power in their region would never be closer to being granted, once they have the ear of the u.s and their cooperation naturally evolved into an alliance. I'd prefer iran as an ally over saudia arabia. (or as a mid east 'leader') Also if islam is going to be reformed a good starting point would be the sunni-shiite conflict. If they can't stop killing each other, then there's no chance in trying to stop them killing us. (israel included)
Unlike under the Shah, the government of Iran is a Shi’a theocracy, not a secular government. The hegemony Iran wants is religious (the control of the holy places, like Mecca), and they seek secular power in support of that goal. US support for that aspiration will bring them into conflict with the global Sunni population, which outnumbers Iran by about 20 to 1, an extremely bad idea.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
And generally speaking a u.s occupation isn't that bad.
Really?? From who's perspective - from those on the receiving end of U.S missiles or those doing the occupying and benefiting from it?

Also ironically, the iranian peoples desire to be a hegemonic power in their region would never be closer to being granted, once they have the ear of the u.s and their cooperation naturally evolved into an alliance.
Iran has no desire to be a ''hegemonic power''. What Iran wants is to safeguard it key national interests and to ensure regime survival, in a region that is militarily dominated by the U.S. and Israel. The Iranian leadership which was already uneasy following the occupation of Iraq, is even more uneasy now that its only Arab ally is fighting for its very survival and that the West, Israel and America's Sunni Arab allies are aiming for regime change in Syria.

Also if islam is going to be reformed a good starting point would be the sunni-shiite conflict. If they can't stop killing each other, then there's no chance in trying to stop them killing us. (israel included)
I would say that what needs to be ''reformed'' is U.S. policy towards the region, not Islam. If the U.S. were to adopt a new policy towards the region and the longstanding Israeli/Palestinian dispute was finally settled, perhaps they would have much less of a reason to want to kill ''us''....

Failure is a matter of perspective. The US is generally seen to have failed in Iraq, and is failing in Afghanistan, but was not defeated in either country. You don’t defeat the US militarily, you just outlast them politically to win. Which is pure SunTzu.
The question is, did the U.S. achieve all or most of the political objectives it set out to achieve before it invaded the 2 countries?

I hope they just get on it and get it over with already. This waiting will give me ulcer.
I hope they don't. With the Midde East already in turmoil and still suffering from the effects of the Arab Spring, yet another war on another country in the region will further inflame the region and lead to more instability.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Iraq was invaded and occupied by a very hobbled u.s military and a very incompetent state department, and it was pretty easy. So as long as the iran invasion is of a reasonable size and the state department is semi-competent, I don't think it will be difficult. Iranians standing their ground will just mean dead iranians in the face of superior u.s firepower, skill and morale. And I repeat the u.s has learned alot from the iraq invasion and occupation experience which will make them even more effective. And let's not forget what the iraq war has taught iranians, mainly that resisting a u.s invasion and occupation will only make iranians suffer more and is doomed to failure. And generally speaking a u.s occupation isn't that bad.
Oh dear. This is the sort of wishful thinking that got the USA into the mess in Iraq.

What is the purpose of your proposed invasion? Charge in & charge out again? If not, you have to consider how you propose to achieve your aims. In Iraq, that thinking wasn't done, & it showed. The invasion was easy, but then everything fell apart rather quickly. Multiply that by a few, for Iran's much greater size, population, military strength, & preparedness for exactly the scenario you propose. And don't forget that Iran's geography is much more hostile to invaders than Iraq's. To get to the main cities & population centres from the coast you need to cross mountain ranges. Bridges to be blown up under your convoys, gorges in which you can be ambushed, etc., & towns & cities (in which most of the population live) a-plenty to tangle up your troops.

As for "a u.s occupation isn't that bad" - so what? Do you really think the Iranians will care? How would you feel about a rather civilised foreign occupation of the USA? Happy?

BTW, it looks to me as if the biggest lesson the US military has learned from its occupation of Iraq is that it's something to be avoided if at all possible.

I'll repeat: what is the purpose of your proposed invasion? What do you propose to do with Iran after occupying it?
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Iranians standing their ground will just mean dead iranians in the face of superior u.s firepower, skill and morale. And I repeat the u.s has learned alot from the iraq invasion and occupation experience which will make them even more effective. And let's not forget what the iraq war has taught iranians, mainly that resisting a u.s invasion and occupation will only make iranians suffer more and is doomed to failure. And generally speaking a u.s occupation isn't that bad.
Please stop posting until the level of intelligence you can bring to a discussion is beyond that of a fifteen year old. You're seriously saying a military occupation of another country "isn't that bad" from that country's perspective? Grow up. That's one of the most ignorant and ridiculous things I've ever heard.

Increase the quality of your input (by reading more and typing less) or find somewhere else to post. Those are your options.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
Failure is a matter of perspective. The US is generally seen to have failed in Iraq, and is failing in Afghanistan, but was not defeated in either country. You don’t defeat the US militarily, you just outlast them politically to win. Which is pure Sun Tzu.
The question is, did the U.S. achieve all or most of the political objectives it set out to achieve before it invaded the 2 countries?
Seems to depend on who is talking as to what the political objectives are/were, usually whatever they think will make their political bloc look good and the opposing political bloc look bad.

Personally, I think we did poorly. Iraq looks torn between returning to a dictatorship and a theocracy dominated by Iran. Afghanistan will collapse soon after the withdrawal in 2014, same as when the USSR withdrew in 1989. The problem is that the US is just not capable politically of supporting a prolonged conflict, whereas their opponents have no such problem, and know it.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Personally, I think we did poorly. Iraq looks torn between returning to a dictatorship and a theocracy dominated by Iran.
The stated aim was to remove the Saddam regime - that was dabbling in WMDs and was a 'threat' to the West, Israel and ''friendly'' Arab states - and replace it with a 'democratic' government that was representative of all Iraqis, and off course one that was 'friendly' to Uncle Sam and didn't threaten Israel. It goes without saying that there were other reasons, like the fact that Iraq conveniently happened to have lots of oil and that regime change in Iraq would have left only 2 regional countries who refused to play ball with Uncle Sam - Iran and Syria - both prominent members of Bush's 'Axis of Evil' club.

Unfortunately, the price Iraq had to pay was a full scale civil war which led to thousands of Iraqis killed and displaced as Saddam [who off course was a b******d just like all the other dictators whom the West cultivated] was the glue that held everything together. What really annoys the Americans is the level of relationship currently existing between Iran and Iraq and the level of influence Iran has in Iraq - both of which were inevitable given the centuries old relationship and the large numbers of Shias in Iraq.

http://ericmargolis.com/2012/09/romney-and-the-neocons-court-nuclear-disaster/
 
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