Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

chis73

Active Member
Just some minor news from parliament, discussing Endeavour & Canterbury replacements.

New Zealand Parliament - 10. New Zealand Navy

Seems the official line is that Canterbury is doing a fantastic job, so those of you hoping for an early replacement might be disappointed.

Any news on Canterbury going into refit for her remedial work yet? It was supposed to begin about now. Or has the project been deferred due to HMAS Choules breaking down?

Nice evasion by Dr Coleman on Endeavour. Not really the answer to the question was it.

Chis73
 
Last edited:

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Seems the official line is that Canterbury is doing a fantastic job, so those of you hoping for an early replacement might be disappointed.

Nice evasion by Dr Coleman on Endeavour. Not really the answer to the question was it.

Chis73
Questions for Oral Answer are puff pieces and the Minister always has positive spin on what ever the question is. CY might be doing officially a fantastic job but that is within the defined limits of what it is capable of. The question of whether it has the right level of capability for the post 2020 force is debatable. That debate will continue and you won't die wondering where I stand on that debate.

It is good to see Richard Prosser get his teeth into something with respect to Defence - an area he has had a long interest in. He would be one of very few MP's in the NZ house that are Pro Defence and much of his maiden speech was given over to the subject. Seems to be taken over the reigns from Ron Marks.

NZ First have always had the best Defence Policy - problem is most of their other policies are unworkable. Privately and with a little mischief, I have thought that if National are are going to need Winston Peters and NZ First next election to carry the day - why not offer him the Defence Ministers portfolio - he'd love it and frankly the Govt would like it too as it is a job that involves the third amount of travelling abroad by a minister other than the Trade and Foreign Ministers. Meaning that the officials can get on with running things and the PM has him frequently out of the country doing lots of parades, wine & cheese functions and attending test matches. Plus - the NZDF would get a whopping increase in funding as part of the coalition deal.
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
Just some minor news from parliament, discussing Endeavour & Canterbury replacements.


Seems the official line is that Canterbury is doing a fantastic job, so those of you hoping for an early replacement might be disappointed.

Any news on Canterbury going into refit for her remedial work yet? It was supposed to begin about now. Or has the project been deferred due to HMAS Choules breaking down?

Nice evasion by Dr Coleman on Endeavour. Not really the answer to the question was it.

Chis73
There is an article titled "Another ANZAC ship project?" in the latest Asia Pacific Defence Reporter (you can read it online) with brief discussion of the Endeavour replacement.
Given that both NZ and Oz need to replace three AOR ships over a 10 year period this would seem like a good opportunity to work together on something.

While it would be ideal in some ways to have a common platform, would this be practical or would NZ/Aus capability requirements be too different?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
There is an article titled "Another ANZAC ship project?" in the latest Asia Pacific Defence Reporter (you can read it online) with brief discussion of the Endeavour replacement.
Given that both NZ and Oz need to replace three AOR ships over a 10 year period this would seem like a good opportunity to work together on something.

While it would be ideal in some ways to have a common platform, would this be practical or would NZ/Aus capability requirements be too different?
This is the link to the article that kiwi-in-exile refers to: NZ Update THREE SERVICES, ONE FORCE | Australian Defence News & Articles | Asia Pacific Defence Reporter The ANZAC ship project is about half way down.

The Canterbury is a start for us in the amphibious game and I think the next step should be the 13,000 tonne version of the RAN LHDs. I have been reading the Navantia article about their amphibous ships http://infodefensa.com/wp-content/uploads/JCI_en_v2.pdf Since it would be the same class, but half the tonnage, as the RAN LHDs then the interoperability between the two navies on the LHDs would be practically seamless. The RAN seem to have built a good relationship with Navantia through the LHD project and the AWD project and we'd be silly not to explore that avenue.

The next thing is, as the Three Services One Force article states both the RNZN and the RAN are having to replace their AOR ships within the time period, an ANZAC AOR Project would be an idea worth thoroughly investigating.
 
Last edited:

1805

New Member
This is the link to the article that kiwi-in-exile refers to: NZ Update THREE SERVICES, ONE FORCE | Australian Defence News & Articles | Asia Pacific Defence Reporter The ANZAC ship project is about half way down.

The Canterbury is a start for us in the amphibious game and I think the next step should be the 13,000 tonne version of the RAN LHDs. I have been reading the Navantia article about their amphibous ships http://infodefensa.com/wp-content/uploads/JCI_en_v2.pdf Since it would be the same class, but half the tonnage, as the RAN LHDs then the interoperability between the two navies on the LHDs would be practically seamless. The RAN seem to have built a good relationship with Navantia through the LHD project and the AWD project and we'd be silly not to explore that avenue.

The next thing is, as the Three Services One Force article states both the RNZN and the RAN are having to replace their AOR ships within the time period, an ANZAC AOR Project would be an idea worth thoroughly investigating.
I do only have a removed understanding of the politics and funding around NZ Armed forces, I wonder if joint procurement solutions could be found with partners other than (in addition to) the RAN?

It also occured to me that NZ might be better refocusing most of it's defence resouces around a naval based expeditionary capability. Could both ANZACs & Canterbury be replaced with 2-3, 9-10,000 ships, basic dock, sizable flexideck but with say 23-25 knot and a frigate armament.

The dock would enable the deployment of future USV (ISR & ASW), the helicopter deck/hanger, the largest of helicopters.

I know the C130s have given good services but could these be more usefully replaced with V22/Chinoocks. The long distance logistics could be done by a lightweight MRTT conversion of some ex commercial A320/737s.

A small but completely integrated capability, really able to puch way above it's weight?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I do only have a removed understanding of the politics and funding around NZ Armed forces, I wonder if joint procurement solutions could be found with partners other than (in addition to) the RAN?

It also occured to me that NZ might be better refocusing most of it's defence resouces around a naval based expeditionary capability. Could both ANZACs & Canterbury be replaced with 2-3, 9-10,000 ships, basic dock, sizable flexideck but with say 23-25 knot and a frigate armament.

The dock would enable the deployment of future USV (ISR & ASW), the helicopter deck/hanger, the largest of helicopters.

I know the C130s have given good services but could these be more usefully replaced with V22/Chinoocks. The long distance logistics could be done by a lightweight MRTT conversion of some ex commercial A320/737s.

A small but completely integrated capability, really able to puch way above it's weight?
At a rapid glance, I would say no, these do not really seem viable options.

There has been greater effort to coordinate some purchases betweent he NZDF and ADF, in part due to the advantages of a larger buy, but also joint/interoperability. The NZDF is most apt to partner with the ADF on an op.

Even with that in mind, the NZDF and ADF manage to have different requirements for their respective pieces of kit. Other navies which have a requirement for an AOR, would likely require a different fitout from that of the RNZN, which would make a joint buy difficult.

As for a purchase of an outsize Absalon-class MRV... I have doubts that such a vessel could be designed, built and operated more economically/efficiently than a seperate amphib and escort vessel. For one thing, when the vessel needs to operate as an amphib, especially if in a threatened environment, will it be able to effectively self-escort? I suspect not, since any needed heli-lift for the embarked troops would take away from spots for naval helicopters.

Also looking at things from the other side, if just a deployable frigate is required (the RNZN frequently has deployed one away from NZ) then all the additional space/weight allocated to allowing troop lift is effectively dead space/weight. Not to mention it could have a negative impact on the handling of the vessel. That was found out the hard way with HMNZS Canterbury, that when the vehicle deck did not have vehicles aboard, Canterbury did not handle properly.

Another part of the equation to look at is the when/where/how NZ participates in a situation. Having three vessels is only really enough for one to be deployed or deployable, one to be undergoing maintenance, and the third to be undergoing training, workups, or returning from an op/deployment and being stood down. That effectively leaves a single vessel for a deployment (which it might already be on...) with a possible surge availability of a second vessel. The NZDF could certainly find itself with a RNZN vessel deployed away from NZ for partner ops off the Horn of Africa, or now possibly off the west coast of Africa by Nigeria to combat piracy. NZ could also find itself needing to deploy sealift to somewhere in the S. Pacific due to a disaster (quake, eruption, storm or some combination thereof) and still need a vessel in & around NZ for patrolling needs. Better IMO to keep the different roles split out, since NZ does have requirements for different roles to be conducted at the same time in different areas. With fewer hulls covering multiple roles at the same time, NZ could find itself with reduced response options due to a lack of deployable kit.

As for replacing the C-130H's with some combination of V-22/CH-47 & A320 MRTT's, that too does not look like a viable option. A new C-130J costs ~$65 mi. vs the V-22 APUC ~$83.7 mil. taken from here. So, for an extra ~US$20 mil. per aircraft, the RNZAF could reduce the max number of troops carried from 92 combat troops/64 paratroopers down to 18-24 troops (roughly the capacity of an NH-90 IIRC), reduce the max travel speed by ~100 mph, and further reduce the max travel distance to less than half what an existing RNZAF C-130H at full load could cover... All in all, not a viable suggestion, unless the NZDF has a requirement for rotary lift which travels farther and faster than existing or upcoming NZDF rotary lift can cover.

As for use of MRTT's they do not have the same capabilities of a C-130 since they lack cargo ramps and do not have a rough field capability. Basically, unless there is an airport with cargo handling facilities, an MRTT cannot be used for much of the cargo role. Even then, even small vehicle transport would likely be problematic due to load limits based off the cargo deck floor. IIRC the current B757's in RNZAF service can carry 11 pallets of cargo, but each pallet is limited to 2,000 lbs max weight, otherwise it overloads the cargo deck floor.

-Cheers
 

1805

New Member
At a rapid glance, I would say no, these do not really seem viable options.

There has been greater effort to coordinate some purchases betweent he NZDF and ADF, in part due to the advantages of a larger buy, but also joint/interoperability. The NZDF is most apt to partner with the ADF on an op.

Even with that in mind, the NZDF and ADF manage to have different requirements for their respective pieces of kit. Other navies which have a requirement for an AOR, would likely require a different fitout from that of the RNZN, which would make a joint buy difficult.

As for a purchase of an outsize Absalon-class MRV... I have doubts that such a vessel could be designed, built and operated more economically/efficiently than a seperate amphib and escort vessel. For one thing, when the vessel needs to operate as an amphib, especially if in a threatened environment, will it be able to effectively self-escort? I suspect not, since any needed heli-lift for the embarked troops would take away from spots for naval helicopters.

Also looking at things from the other side, if just a deployable frigate is required (the RNZN frequently has deployed one away from NZ) then all the additional space/weight allocated to allowing troop lift is effectively dead space/weight. Not to mention it could have a negative impact on the handling of the vessel. That was found out the hard way with HMNZS Canterbury, that when the vehicle deck did not have vehicles aboard, Canterbury did not handle properly.

Another part of the equation to look at is the when/where/how NZ participates in a situation. Having three vessels is only really enough for one to be deployed or deployable, one to be undergoing maintenance, and the third to be undergoing training, workups, or returning from an op/deployment and being stood down. That effectively leaves a single vessel for a deployment (which it might already be on...) with a possible surge availability of a second vessel. The NZDF could certainly find itself with a RNZN vessel deployed away from NZ for partner ops off the Horn of Africa, or now possibly off the west coast of Africa by Nigeria to combat piracy. NZ could also find itself needing to deploy sealift to somewhere in the S. Pacific due to a disaster (quake, eruption, storm or some combination thereof) and still need a vessel in & around NZ for patrolling needs. Better IMO to keep the different roles split out, since NZ does have requirements for different roles to be conducted at the same time in different areas. With fewer hulls covering multiple roles at the same time, NZ could find itself with reduced response options due to a lack of deployable kit.

As for replacing the C-130H's with some combination of V-22/CH-47 & A320 MRTT's, that too does not look like a viable option. A new C-130J costs ~$65 mi. vs the V-22 APUC ~$83.7 mil. taken from here. So, for an extra ~US$20 mil. per aircraft, the RNZAF could reduce the max number of troops carried from 92 combat troops/64 paratroopers down to 18-24 troops (roughly the capacity of an NH-90 IIRC), reduce the max travel speed by ~100 mph, and further reduce the max travel distance to less than half what an existing RNZAF C-130H at full load could cover... All in all, not a viable suggestion, unless the NZDF has a requirement for rotary lift which travels farther and faster than existing or upcoming NZDF rotary lift can cover.

As for use of MRTT's they do not have the same capabilities of a C-130 since they lack cargo ramps and do not have a rough field capability. Basically, unless there is an airport with cargo handling facilities, an MRTT cannot be used for much of the cargo role. Even then, even small vehicle transport would likely be problematic due to load limits based off the cargo deck floor. IIRC the current B757's in RNZAF service can carry 11 pallets of cargo, but each pallet is limited to 2,000 lbs max weight, otherwise it overloads the cargo deck floor.

-Cheers
I think you have taken a fairly narrow view on this, I was suggesting pretty much refocusing NZ defence around it's strengths/needs. If we split these down into say:

- Disaster relief/support
- Helping out with coalition constabulary work (at sea & on land)
- Insertion and support of a SF unit and small SF support group.

It maximises the value of it's best assets by developing a compact/lite SF support group and moves away from infantry battlions.

You mentioned a Absalon/MRV, which is one option, but I was thinking more a cross between a frigate & RSN Endurance. A uniform class of 2-3 ships would actually improve availability (over 2 types). Would this be expensive....nothings free your right, but if a similar approach was taken as the RN has with the Type 23/26, with relevant systems being moved across, as the new ships come into service. NZ will already have a lot of they are likely to require.

I am not sure self escorting is such an issue and it depends of the likely threat. As an AA platfrom, a bigger ship will be better, and will certainly be more helicopter capable. Helicopters pretty much take care of small boats/FAC. I think access to a small dock will be a huge benefit in the future (and now) not only for logistics/assault but USV and ASW sensors etc.

The range and payload of a C130 is better than a V22, but then it's tied to a runway (even a rough one). Does NZ need the load carrying? Whereas the flexibility a V22 could offer, just an example instead of fitting SSM on a ship, you could fit NSM on a V22?
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I think you have taken a fairly narrow view on this, I was suggesting pretty much refocusing NZ defence around it's strengths/needs. If we split these down into say:

- Disaster relief/support
- Helping out with coalition constabulary work (at sea & on land)
- Insertion and support of a SF unit and small SF support group.

It maximises the value of it's best assets by developing a compact/lite SF support group and moves away from infantry battlions.

You mentioned a Absalon/MRV, which is one option, but I was thinking more a cross between a frigate & RSN Endurance. A uniform class of 2-3 ships would actually improve availability (over 2 types). Would this be expensive....nothings free your right, but if a similar approach was taken as the RN has with the Type 23/26, with relevant systems being moved across, as the new ships come into service. NZ will already have a lot of they are likely to require.

I am not sure self escorting is such an issue and it depends of the likely threat. As an AA platfrom, a bigger ship will be better, and will certainly be more helicopter capable. Helicopters pretty much take care of small boats/FAC. I think access to a small dock will be a huge benefit in the future (and now) not only for logistics/assault but USV and ASW sensors etc.

The range and payload of a C130 is better than a V22, but then it's tied to a runway (even a rough one). Does NZ need the load carrying? Whereas the flexibility a V22 could offer, just an example instead of fitting SSM on a ship, you could fit NSM on a V22?
The here and now complexities of reshaping the NZDF in a joint amphibious task group with a tri service task group one that can integrate more efficiently with the ADF, needs to start with equipment at hand HMNZS Canterbury (L421) whilst not ideal does complement RAN shipping. Ngatimozart is on the right track with the mini me Canberra class for a future asset for the RNZN.

What planners in the NZDF might want to start thinking is how the NZDF can fit into a joint ANZAC task force, centered on a Canberra Class LHD.There is no money in the bucket for big ticket Navy ships in the short term. IMHO restructuring priority should center on Army and Air Force elements, for instance the ADF is short on heavy lift helicopters (Chinooks) or Kiowa Warrior in the observation, utility, and direct fire support role.

A restructured NZDF can center around one of the light infantry battalions specializing in airmobile operations with CH47F/MRH90, these aircraft will always have tasking domestically and in the greater pacific arena, NZAF will also always have a need for C130 Hercules aircraft, some suggest the C27J but it cannot fly of a LHD or future mini-me.

I have a sneaky suspicion that if T26 can accept a majority of systems that are compatible with the RNZN/RAN, then that’s what NZ will likely end up with, if as predicted the RAN go with a common hull with AWD, Kiwis will most likely say it’s too large for their needs. But I do like the Absalon class just not what the RNZN needs, if they have requirement for a small scale troop insertion around the Pacific Rim then 3 Austral MRV80 would suit better.
 

1805

New Member
The here and now complexities of reshaping the NZDF in a joint amphibious task group with a tri service task group one that can integrate more efficiently with the ADF, needs to start with equipment at hand HMNZS Canterbury (L421) whilst not ideal does complement RAN shipping. Ngatimozart is on the right track with the mini me Canberra class for a future asset for the RNZN.

What planners in the NZDF might want to start thinking is how the NZDF can fit into a joint ANZAC task force, centered on a Canberra Class LHD.There is no money in the bucket for big ticket Navy ships in the short term. IMHO restructuring priority should center on Army and Air Force elements, for instance the ADF is short on heavy lift helicopters (Chinooks) or Kiowa Warrior in the observation, utility, and direct fire support role.

A restructured NZDF can center around one of the light infantry battalions specializing in airmobile operations with CH47F/MRH90, these aircraft will always have tasking domestically and in the greater pacific arena, NZAF will also always have a need for C130 Hercules aircraft, some suggest the C27J but it cannot fly of a LHD or future mini-me.

I have a sneaky suspicion that if T26 can accept a majority of systems that are compatible with the RNZN/RAN, then that’s what NZ will likely end up with, if as predicted the RAN go with a common hull with AWD, Kiwis will most likely say it’s too large for their needs. But I do like the Absalon class just not what the RNZN needs, if they have requirement for a small scale troop insertion around the Pacific Rim then 3 Austral MRV80 would suit better.
Completely agree, this should be as replacements are considered. I actually think the MRV has added a significant capability which probably does not get as much credit as it deserves.

There are many gap in NZ capability that realistically are only going to be filled by working with Australia.

I do like that MRV80, I wonder how much a 1,000t version would cost?
 

Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I know the C130s have given good services but could these be more usefully replaced with V22/Chinoocks. The long distance logistics could be done by a lightweight MRTT conversion of some ex commercial A320/737s.
1850 - Your profile says 'Reading' - as in UK I guess. You've fallen for the classic european error of underestimating the size of the pacific.

There are only 3 issue with the above suggestion:

Range. Payload. Cost (both upfront and per flight hour).
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Completely agree, this should be as replacements are considered. I actually think the MRV has added a significant capability which probably does not get as much credit as it deserves.

There are many gap in NZ capability that realistically are only going to be filled by working with Australia.

I do like that MRV80, I wonder how much a 1,000t version would cost?
No it would not meet the requirements especially as its aluminium and would not handle the Southern Ocean. The OPCvessels that the RNZN need have to handle the waters from the Equator to Antarctica so they have to be ice strengthened for a start. Then they have to be able to handle the seas between NZ and Antarctica. The RAN sent an ANZAC Frigate down south once and never again because of damage to the vessel. My opinion is that the ANZAC replacement may be based around the AWD hull but scaled down to maybe around 5000 tonnes. We would need three of those at a minimum. The OCV needs to be steel and around 2000 tonnes and the RNZN would need four or five. That way we can have one chasing pirates in the IO or elswhere, a couple doing the current Protector class OPV duties and one for littoral warfare. Of course modular built so that it's relatively easy to swap roles between hulls. They need a better armament than the current Protector class OPV (1 x 25mm Bushmaster and 2 x .50 cal) with a something like a Bushmaster 40mm gun up forrard ( http://www.atk.com/capabilities_defense/cs_as_gs_mk44_30-40mm_c.asp ), two 25mm Bushmasters aft say on top hangar, mountings for 4 x .50 cal and MAG 58 7.62mm. You don't need to have the .50 cal and 7.62mm mounted all the time and all at once, just the mountings for them with a bit of versatility. No missile armament.

This is the Protector OPV data from http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/protectorclassoffsho/
The OPV has an overall length of 85m, a waterline length of 77.6m and a moulded breadth of 14m. Depth to main deck is 6.8m and design draft is 3.6m. Displacement of the boat is 1,900t. The vessel has a maximum ranger of 6,000nm at 15kt speed and an endurance of 21 days. It can complement over 80 people including core ship's company, flight personnel, agency officials and additional members. So the new OPC has to have the same range and duration, as well as accomodations.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I do only have a removed understanding of the politics and funding around NZ Armed forces, I wonder if joint procurement solutions could be found with partners other than (in addition to) the RAN?
The two big players in the Pacific are the RAN & USN, Australia is our biggest trading partner, our two Defence Forces share common Doctrine, history and in battle. LA is 12 hours by Boeing in one direction, Singapore is 8 hours, and South America is the same distance as LA whereas Sydney is a two & a half plane trip.
It also occurred to me that NZ might be better refocusing most of its defence resources around a naval based expeditionary capability. Could both ANZACs & Canterbury be replaced with 2-3, 9-10,000 ships, basic dock, sizable flexi deck but with say 23-25 knot and a frigate armament?
We are finishing stage one of a total revamp of the NZDF based on the Amphibious Task Force that will fit seamlessly into the RAN, All services are moving towards force 2020. I get the impression that you don’t really have a full understanding on the size and breath of the waters surrounding New Zealand, HMNZS CAN is for all intents and purposes a trial ship procured to wet our feet as they say in Amphibious Operations. Our Navy like the Army is set up between Combat, Patrol & logistics so where does these flexi deck ships fit in?

I know the C130s have given good services but could these be more usefully replaced with V22/Chinoocks. The long distance logistics could be done by a lightweight MRTT conversion of some ex commercial A320/737s.
Have a look at the EC that NZDF are required to provide to NZGOV now where exactly do the Chinook & V22 actually fit in? They don’t that’s why we will keep the C130 or something very similar to it in the near future A320/737 might be able to land on the main islands in the Pacific but won't cut it in the smaller islands that we operate out of. Most european commentators have no real understanding on how large the Pacific is and the challengers that the RNZN face.

NZDF - Employment Contexts
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I think you have taken a fairly narrow view on this, I was suggesting pretty much refocusing NZ defence around it's strengths/needs. If we split these down into say:

- Disaster relief/support
- Helping out with coalition constabulary work (at sea & on land)
- Insertion and support of a SF unit and small SF support group.

It maximises the value of it's best assets by developing a compact/lite SF support group and moves away from infantry battlions.

You mentioned a Absalon/MRV, which is one option, but I was thinking more a cross between a frigate & RSN Endurance. A uniform class of 2-3 ships would actually improve availability (over 2 types). Would this be expensive....nothings free your right, but if a similar approach was taken as the RN has with the Type 23/26, with relevant systems being moved across, as the new ships come into service. NZ will already have a lot of they are likely to require.

I am not sure self escorting is such an issue and it depends of the likely threat. As an AA platfrom, a bigger ship will be better, and will certainly be more helicopter capable. Helicopters pretty much take care of small boats/FAC. I think access to a small dock will be a huge benefit in the future (and now) not only for logistics/assault but USV and ASW sensors etc.

The range and payload of a C130 is better than a V22, but then it's tied to a runway (even a rough one). Does NZ need the load carrying? Whereas the flexibility a V22 could offer, just an example instead of fitting SSM on a ship, you could fit NSM on a V22?
It not so much a narrow view, as it is a realistic one. How often has equipment (whether it is vehicles, aircraft, vessels, personal kit) been designed to perform several very different roles, and had the equipment be inexpensive, efficient, and effective? In my experience, few times, if ever.

Now, the sorts of characteristics of a good sealift vessel are quite a bit different from those of a good GP frigate. The sealift vessel would want/need plenty of lane metres for vehicles and/or aircraft, as well as displacement for the weight of cargo carried. Various fuel and parts supplies would be required, as would the appropriate work/machine shops and spaces, to maintain the vehicles for the embarked personnel.

There would also need to be plenty of space for the embarked personnel, both in terms of quarters, but also for PT, rest, med facilities, etc. In short, everything required to keep the embarked personnel ready and effective for when they get landed. Using the HMNZS Canterbury as a guide, a company group that NZ wished to have embarked and deployable along with their vehicles and four helicopters, would likely require a vessel in the 8,000 - 9,000 ton range. Possilby more if a welldock was included.

Now add in the sorts of equipment a GP frigate should really be equipped with, like air/surface search radars, illuminators, a combat data system, main gun (76mm/62 at minimum, a 127mm/62 would be better) CIWS, ASW torpedoes, non-VSHORAD SAM, SSM, naval helicopter and towed sonar array... Not only is that going to need space, the kit will also require weight. Where things could get awkward is that some things like the towed sonar array, would likely need to be co-located with the welldock. Making things even worse, the frigate kit would need to be able to function while the vessel was carrying embarked personnel and vehicles. That, or a second such vessel armed and operating in the frigate role would need to be available if/when the sealift role was being conducted within a threatened area.

If the RNZN only was able to get 2-3 such vessels in total, then the RNZN would not be able to rely on having two of the vessels available to cover the sealift and escort roles at the same time, not and have the RNZN meet training, maintenance and other deployment needs.

Now on to the V-22 idea. That idea is one that really needs to be killed, because it is not viable for the NZDF. In terms of personnel, the CV-22 can transport roughly the same number of personnel as the NH90 helicopters that the RNZAF is currently getting, and using auxiliary fuel tanks, has roughly the same range, ~800 km. This means that the CV-22 could replace the NH90 as a battlefield rotary airlift (which is what the V-22 was designed for...) but would be completely unsuitable as a replacement tactical airlifter for the C-130.

To really appreciate why NZ needs something like the C-130, or A400M, one needs to remember the distances involved. The two closest points between NZ and Oz are 1,491 km apart or slightly farther away than Rome is from London, and they are on Resolution Island and Tasman Island respectively, not on the mainland of either nation. The average distance between NZ and Oz is ~2,250 km, or slightly less than the distance between London and the Black Sea port of Odessa, Ukraine.

With these sorts of distances, and the potential need to airlift equipment and vehicles into or from areas which lack a cargo handling capability, then military airlifters like the C-130 and similar aircraft are required. This is from a range, payload, and loading/unloading perspective.

Smaller aircraft like the V-22, while suitable for replacing helicopters like the UH-1 or NH90, would quite literally fall short of meeting the range requirement.

Then there is the whole cost issue. The NZDF is essentially starved of funding, and there would not be funding for something as expensive as the V-22, which as I mentioned before, is more expensive per aircraft than a C-130J to purchase.

The V-22 provides a specialty capability which is useful to the USAF and USMC, in that it is a comparatively high speed, rotary medium lift. It is being brought into service to replace aging CH-46 Sea Knight. Both the USAF and USMC budgets are sufficient to provide some specialty capabilities. However, the NZDF budget does not have that sort of flexibility. Not to mention the sort of reconfiguration which would be required by other NZDF assets in order to accomodate a rotary aircraft as large as a V-22.

-Cheers
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Cadredave,
Once the basic building blocks of force 2020 are achieved and NZDF looks to the future most if not all the kit currently in service should be beyond its shelf life, case in point I would expect that the L119 to be out of service and commonality with RAA and possibly using M777 LWTH.

M777 155 millimetre Light Weight Towed Howitzer - Australian Army

Which in turn once HMNZS Canterbury is replaced (post 2020) with a more versatile vessel, it’s quite possible that NZ will need organic heavy lift aircraft as part of JATF. Chooks won’t be purchased just on the off chance to move a few guns around but its heavy lift capability make it useful in HADR .Agreed that C130 is needed to ferry supply’s into South Pacific nations, but the C130 cannot move those supply into remote areas that’s where CH-47F come in.

RNZAF - Exercise Tropic Twilight


Ngatimozart,
Austral MRV is not intended to patrol the southern extremities of NZ EEZ, that’s what you got HMNZS Otago and wellington for. Austral MRV is a moot point once RNZN has a dedicated LHD along with a tie into the RAN LCH replacement program negating the need for MRV 80.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gknBa5ahsPE"]Austal Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) - YouTube[/nomedia]

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/navy-maritime/design-question-relating-austal-mrv-8289/

BMT Design & Technology - Warships
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Ngatimozart,
Austral MRV is not intended to patrol the southern extremities of NZ EEZ, that’s what you got HMNZS Otago and wellington for. Austral MRV is a moot point once RNZN has a dedicated LHD along with a tie into the RAN LCH replacement program negating the need for MRV 80.
Thanks am aware of that. Was just explaining for our poster from the UK who may have seen the link and followed it through. I have been following the Austral discussion on the RAN thread. With regard to the LHD I kinda hope we would get one, the 13,000 tonne version of the Canberra class to replace Canterbury with.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks am aware of that. Was just explaining for our poster from the UK who may have seen the link and followed it through. I have been following the Austral discussion on the RAN thread. With regard to the LHD I kinda hope we would get one, the 13,000 tonne version of the Canberra class to replace Canterbury with.
The purchase of such a vessel I would imagine would be very palatable to the NZ public ? rather less contentious than Frigate purchases, is there the capacity or the potential will for 2 Mini Me's ?

Oh, just as an after thought, a good example of distances involved in our region :)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_EtOwuefRQ...e0/CxsvwOg31Rk/s1600/map_australia_europe.jpg
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Acknowledge T68, the main thrust of my post was for 1805,

Once the basic building blocks of force 2020 are achieved and NZDF looks to the future most if not all the kit currently in service should be beyond its shelf life, case in point I would expect that the L119 to be out of service and commonality with RAA and possibly using M777 LWTH.
Well we are already into Force 2020 it comes into being in December this year for Army, our first phase was Force 2015, im quite aware of our equipment and when it needs replacing as I use it daily however we do have higher priorities and the first cab of the rank is the B vehicle replacement, ISR then Cbt Spt for Army and the Endeavour for Navy & C130 for Air.

Which in turn once HMNZS Canterbury is replaced (post 2020) with a more versatile vessel, it’s quite possible that NZ will need organic heavy lift aircraft as part of JATF. Chooks won’t be purchased just on the off chance to move a few guns around but its heavy lift capability make it useful in HADR.
There is really not that much that requires real heavy lift for Army that can’t be accomplished by the NH90 and a landing craft especially in the SW Pacific I was on Tropic Twilight and witnessed the use of CAN & Sprite moving equipment to and fro and now understand exactly what the NH90 will bring in the future.

CD
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The purchase of such a vessel I would imagine would be very palatable to the NZ public ? rather less contentious than Frigate purchases, is there the capacity or the potential will for 2 Mini Me's ?
We'd get one past the public but possibly not two and I don't think we could crew two plus the rest of the Navy. Be nice though. We'd probably get the the pollies to accept the concept have some difficulty getting them to accept the dollar cost and only way to get treasury to accept it without a fight would be to hold a 9mm Sig-Sauers to their heads, unfortunately. I am sure a 9mm close to ones head would show them the error of their ways. :)

The interesting thing is that the Endeavour will be replaced before Canterbury and the story is that an AOR with an MRV capability is favoured,so I would presume be larger than Endeavour. I was wondering if the Spanish Armada vessel, Cantabria, that will be operating with RAN from Feb to November next year would be a suitable vessel apart from its lack multirole capability although it does have a good sized flight deck. Surely the RNZN will send some people to give it a good once over whilst it is in this part of the world.

Oh, just as an after thought, a good example of distances involved in our region :)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_EtOwuefRQ...e0/CxsvwOg31Rk/s1600/map_australia_europe.jpg
you've left out most of Western Australia
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Acknowledge T68, the main thrust of my post was for 1805,



CD
Cadredave,
Yes I was aware the main thrust of your post was for 1805 consumption and that you are a current serving member of the NZDF.

NH90 will bring a huge increase in lift for defence over Super Seasprite, with Canterbury being CH47 rated would have thought the capability should be used to the fullest extent leading into a more versatile defence force in the future.
 
Top