M1A1, the indestructible Tank?

Methos

New Member
No storage, it is the side armour, you can see this at the larger picture.

As for the side-skirts: This are bolt-on "Chobham" (= Burlington) modules on the Warrior MICV (see for example "Warrior Mechanized Combat Vehicle, 1987 - 1994" by C. Foss). The Warrior's hull is made of aluminium armour only and was designed to resist heavy machine gun rounds (with a penetration into steel armour of 25 mm at 1,000 m and ~35 mm at 500 m). If the side armour would be empty boxes, then the space (less than 1/2 meter) would be enough to reduce the armour penetration of a RPG by more than 270 mm RHAe. However the RPG-7 is still capable to penetrate more than 127 mm steel armour after 0.61 meters from the point of detonation (see here).
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
When I posted, I asked wether someone has a sources for the claims that the Pz 87 WE was offered to Australia or was tested there ("I wonder if anyone has a source regarding the claims that the Panzer 87WE was offered to Australia"), because I was not aware that the tank existed in 2004. But you did not provide a source...
See more made up assumptions on your behalf. Obviously you have no actual conception of the Australian tank acquisition process. But you’ve been happy to make one up. Like tanks being trialled in Australia and so on. You’ve also limited yourself to a handful of sources and therefore limited understanding. That you persist in trying to maintain this self-supporting logic despite being told otherwise is no credit to you.

Pz 87 WE existed well before 2004. The first prototype was unveiled in 2003 and the concept/technology of the upgrade goes back to Swiss participation in the German KWS Leopard 2 upgrade program in the 1990s. The Swiss offered to Australia surplus Pz 87 tanks upgraded to the WE standard for delivery in the Australian timetable at competitive costs to rebuilt M1A1 AIMs. The Australian tank evaluation process was conducted in December 2003, January/February 2004. The Pz 87 WE was found to be cheaper to sustain but was rejected because the costs were not as concrete as the M1 because the Swiss did not have a working rebuild line. Also the Swiss did not have proven battle management system (BMS) offer unlike the M1 with FB2C2. All of this is factual and well documented. It may not be in the one or two sources your clearly limited internet searching has turned up.

As to your claims about armour and what I’ve said you actually get it wrong in a few places and again try and argue against what I’ve said based on ridiculous backwards analysis from limited information (like your crazy RPG getting trapped in a box nonsense). This is fun in a sick and twisted way so keep trying to sustain your logic chain and I’ll keep chuckling. Or you could wind back the ego and actually ask and contribute rather than posturing.
 

smdw912

New Member
I beleive that the T-90

I would actually pick the t-90. Don't really know the stats but I know it has a higher top speed and that it needed for a great tank. Also it is made by RUSSIANS !!!!
 

Damian90

New Member
The problem with Burlington armor, or rather Burlington program is that not single armor design was developed under that program, but there were at least several different Burlington armors. One of the reports said even about Burlington with build-in explosive reactive armor.

We can assume that when British designers shared data about Burlington with other allied countries, designers in these countries started to alter Burlington armor design to better meet requirements of each NATO army.

We can assume that indeed all NATO's countries that are tank designers/manufacturers and countries from outside NATO that are or were close allies. Recived the Burlington armor data, and altered it's design. So we can assume that actually majority if not all, western composite armors, are in fact a "bastard" childs of Burlington armor program.

Of course reality might be different but, many sources, official and non official and clues like photos of damaged M1 turret side composite armor, damaged Merkava Mk4 composite armor, some concept drawings etc. Seems to support this theory.

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As for M1 series DU armor. Well the problematic issue with this is that we know only about DU being used as armor component but... the key here to understand the role of DU in armor is that, it is an alloy, which means it can't be treated as most DU alloys known to civilians. And also fact that DU alloy elements are encased in steel, and here the best thing, what steel it is?

We should assume that the best way to efficently use high density of DU is to encase it in SHS or HHS steel. Thanks to this we achieve interesting combination of very dense heavy metal that is not very hard and thus more... elastic, and additionally to this, a SHS or HHS steel to gain high hardness benefit.

It is possible that in newer 2nd or 3rd (and perhaps even 4th because of recent reported armor upgrades for M1 series) generation of this armor, might use even THS steel, or ESR steel.

This in my opinion is the biggest problem when most people talk about composite armors, they focuse on a single material used, like ceramics or DU, as armor element that is most reponsible for armor protection characteristics, while in reality, each element and every possible combination of materials used, sums in armor protection characteristics.

This is why simple RHAe estimations of modern MBT's protection seems to be inadequate, and that simple mathematics are also not reliable way to approximetly estimate vehicle protection without the complete data.

Another problem is that these modern, western composite armors, seems to be some sort of non explosive/non energetic reactive armor, by using sort of reactive materials like rubber or for example poliurethane.

It seems that Russian and Ukrainians in their newest tanks, also choose the same way, however there is one important difference. Due to weight and size restriction, they were unable to use a composite armor with high volume of composite insert per whole armor thickness. This is why they are, more or less forced to use explosive reactive armor as not addon but integral protection of their MBT's.

Of course it is only my opinion based on several years of research, someone might agree or not.

I would actually pick the t-90. Don't really know the stats but I know it has a higher top speed and that it needed for a great tank. Also it is made by RUSSIANS !!!!
It also depends what T-90 You have in mind. The original T-90 or Object 188 is nothing more than T-72B (Object 184) on steroids, the actually manufactured variant for Russian armed forces is T-90A or Object 188A1/A2 with a slightly improved hull and completely new turret derived from different development, the Object 187 that was highly advanced tank that had been designed by UVZ UKBTM the same design bureau that designed T-72 and T-90 series.

And there is of course the T-90AM/SM or Object 188M but it is still only a technology demonstrator.
 

Sirius3.333

New Member
Hey, I know this isn't the right place to post this, but I don't know how I get to the "off topic" page. So, how would I go about starting my own thread? I haven't been able to find anything about starting your own post.
 

Krijger

New Member
Overpenetration can be an issue. Even more with KEs than with hollow charges. A modern KE hitting an older tank might very well result in the rod coming straight out of the back of the target with much of it's energy left without creating much spall.
During the "Yom Kippur" war of 1973, an Israeli Centurion on the Golan Heights was hit by a APFSDS round fired by a Syrian T-62. The penetrator went right through the Centurion's turret, passing between the commander and the loader, causing no more damage than entry and exit holes.
On the other hand, the Centurions' APDS rounds didn't even have to penetrate the armour of the T-62s; quite often a glancing hit off the side of the turret was enough to detonate "ready" ammuniton stowed around the inside of the turret. All of the ammunition in the Centurion was stowed below the level of the turret ring.
 

Damian90

New Member
On the other hand, the Centurions' APDS rounds didn't even have to penetrate the armour of the T-62s; quite often a glancing hit off the side of the turret was enough to detonate "ready" ammuniton stowed around the inside of the turret.
Can You provide any "solid" source or proof for this? It is rather hard to belive that without armor perforation it was possible to initiate ammunition cook-off.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Can You provide any "solid" source or proof for this? It is rather hard to belive that without armor perforation it was possible to initiate ammunition cook-off.
Spalling: scabs of steel from the inside of the armour would break away and destroy colocated shells.
 

Damian90

New Member
Yes, but spalling not neccecary could have been done by APDS. I suspect here HESH, there was HESH ammunition for the L7 105mm gun, so Israelis probably used such ammunition.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Yes, but spalling not neccecary could have been done by APDS. I suspect here HESH, there was HESH ammunition for the L7 105mm gun, so Israelis probably used such ammunition.
APDS causes spalling and even a glancing hit will do so. If a 105mm HESH round hit the turret of a T-55 it would blew the tank to pieces and it wouldn't be worth commenting about.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Can You provide any "solid" source or proof for this? It is rather hard to belive that without armor perforation it was possible to initiate ammunition cook-off.
its more than possible - esp when those tanks didn't have dedicated armoury bunkers within - the pictures of '55's and 72's with popped turrets are good examples of what happens when you don't have adequate compartmentalisation
 

Krijger

New Member
The only evidence that I have of this are a couple of books about the Centurion tank and its use in Middle East wars, so thank you to those of you who backed me up!

The books in question are:
"The Centurion Tank in Battle", by Simon Dunstan
"Armour of the Middle East Wars 1948 - 1978", by Steven Zaloga
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
APDS causes spalling and even a glancing hit will do so. If a 105mm HESH round hit the turret of a T-55 it would blew the tank to pieces and it wouldn't be worth commenting about.
I'm fairly sure that HESH does - primarily - cause spalling rather than simply blowing the tank up. It's why that, at least for British armoured crews, APFSDS is the 'anti-armour' round with HESH being buildings/infantry.

HESH used to be the primary AT round of the British Army I think, but it got relegated because more effective spall liners (+ other developments) reduced it's effectiveness.

Army Guide - High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) or High Explosive Plastic (HEP) Round

At least, that was the general trend I think, HESH causes spalling but APFSDS penetrates. Of course, most of this comes from the noggin so who knows.

http://www.imi-israel.com/home/doc.aspx?mCatID=68458
 
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Krijger

New Member
HESH does cause spalling when used against armour; however, the Golan Heights story said that the Israeli tanks were using APDS.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I'm fairly sure that HESH does - primarily - cause spalling rather than simply blowing the tank up. It's why that, at least for British armoured crews, APFSDS is the 'anti-armour' round with HESH being buildings/infantry.
HESH blows tanks up via spalling and the scale of their explosive blast. The whole point of this discussion is a glancing hit causing sympathetic destruction of the ammunition. A HESH round would cause an entirely different scope of damage to the tank than a glancing hit from APDS. As I said “blow it up”: the exterior fittings of the T-55 tank (fuel cells, tracks, MGs etc) would all be likely removed from the tank and the armour plate of the turret severely deformed. Inside apart from the damage caused by the later ammo fires all the fittings (and crew) would be severely damaged by the massive spalling. No one could mistake a HESH hit tank for one hit by a glancing blow from an APDS.

HESH used to be the primary AT round of the British Army I think, but it got relegated because more effective spall liners (+ other developments) reduced it's effectiveness.
LOL. There ain’t a spall liner in the world that is going to save the inside of a tank from a 105-120mm HESH round. However spaced and laminate armours are designed to defeat the wave effect of HESH so making it unable to penetrate more advanced armours. HESH has always been second place to high velocity APDS because of lower accuracy thanks to lower velocity. However at long ranges against thick armour it can be more effective plus of course its multi-purpose capability. HESH was only the primary anti-tank round on low velocity weapons (low pressure guns, recoilless rifles and missiles).
 

My2Cents

Active Member
HESH was only the primary anti-tank round on low velocity weapons (low pressure guns, recoilless rifles and missiles).
I believe that the British were the only ones to ever used HESH as the primary antitank round is a recoilless rifle. Everyone else, and all the missiles, preferred HEAT/shaped charge as the primary antitank round.
 

Krijger

New Member
I believe that the British were the only ones to ever used HESH as the primary antitank round is a recoilless rifle. Everyone else, and all the missiles, preferred HEAT/shaped charge as the primary antitank round.
In the 1950s, Australia and Britain developed an ATGM called "Malkara", which used a HESH warhead. It wasn't as good as expected, but some of the technology was used in later weapons.
I was going to post a link here, but my post total isn't high enough to allow me to do so.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
In the 1950s, Australia and Britain developed an ATGM called "Malkara", which used a HESH warhead. It wasn't as good as expected, but some of the technology was used in later weapons.
I stand corrected. And with a 27kg warhead it certainly would have been effective. But it is worth noting that the missile was replaced less than a decade later by a HEAT warhead missile (Swingfire) with a total launch weight less than the Malkara’s warhead.

Bet the Malkara would have been a hell of a bunker buster with that warhead, if not for the training problems (no simulators and too expensive to fire live rounds).
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Stretching the old brain here but did the Challenger that achieved the 5.1km kill of an Iraqi T-62 during 1991 use HESH or HEAT? I think the L11A5 fired HESH and APDS but not sure on HEAT.
 

Damian90

New Member
Stretching the old brain here but did the Challenger that achieved the 5.1km kill of an Iraqi T-62 during 1991 use HESH or HEAT? I think the L11A5 fired HESH and APDS but not sure on HEAT.
It was HESH most probably, British Army never used HEAT for L11A5 gun, even if there was designed one, I think it was exported, and is used by Chieftain users in middle east.

However there ae rumors that this Iraqi tanks was destroyed not by HESH but by APDS/APFSDS.

It is hard to tell what is truth in this case, also no one mentions how many rounds crew fired before they hit enemy tank.

Firing unguided munitions at such distance is problematic even for tanks with modern FCS, and Challenger 1 had hardly modern and good FCS back then.

Well, probably soon I will be eaten by rifled guns lovers for that blasphemy.:roll
 
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