The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[RobWilliams]

I'm waiting to see if the RN does an article about this before I get too jittery, but still, it's interesting

British flotillas prepared for Syria evacuation - Telegraph

A substantial Navy task force will deploy to the eastern Mediterranean for large scale exercises after the Olympics but will have the capability to help civilians fleeing the growing violence.

She'll then be joined by a French CBG at a later date.

The 'big' named ships in this task force are HMS Illustrious, HMS Bulwark + HMS Defender, but according to the RN, Defender isn't even due to be commissioned until early 2013 and even then she'll have to do all the "work-up" training before going on her maiden deployment, so they must mean HMS Dragon? Assuming it's got any truth in it that is.

 

[Systems Adict]

I'm waiting to see if the RN does an article about this before I get too jittery, but still, it's interesting

British flotillas prepared for Syria evacuation - Telegraph



She'll then be joined by a French CBG at a later date.

The 'big' named ships in this task force are HMS Illustrious, HMS Bulwark + HMS Defender, but according to the RN, Defender isn't even due to be commissioned until early 2013 and even then she'll have to do all the "work-up" training before going on her maiden deployment, so they must mean HMS Dragon? Assuming it's got any truth in it that is.

I'm pretty certain you may be right, as Defender left her berth at the construction yard this morning for the last time & is due in Portsmouth for the 1st time, sometime this coming week.

A new ship, with a green crew & no Phalanx probably means a bit of installation work, lots of work up & THEN deployment.

At a push, it could maybe get done in about 3 months, but on the budget that the RN has & limited manpower availability, I'd think it's yet another bit of fallacy by the media.

SA

 

[RobWilliams]

I'm pretty certain you may be right, as Defender left her berth at the construction yard this morning for the last time & is due in Portsmouth for the 1st time, sometime this coming week.

A new ship, with a green crew & no Phalanx probably means a bit of installation work, lots of work up & THEN deployment.

At a push, it could maybe get done in about 3 months, but on the budget that the RN has & limited manpower availability, I'd think it's yet another bit of fallacy by the media.

SA

Agreed, you'd have thought (if my guess of Dragon is right however) that a bit of basic research would suffice

Also, I'd like to know what you think of all the hullabaloo going on with HMS Ambush, IIRC she's been delayed from sailing to Faslane due to BAE having flaws in it's H&S procedures at Barrow so they can't test her reactor, or something like that.

EDIT: Looks like this exercise has been planned for a while

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/News-and-Events/Latest-News/2011/December/19/111219-HW-Major-Exercise

The two elite units intend to work side-by-side as the Royal Navy’s amphibious task group and France’s flagship battle group join forces in the autumn of 2012.

 

[Systems Adict]

Agreed, you'd have thought (if my guess of Dragon is right however) that a bit of basic research would suffice

More proof that it's NOT Defender.......

HMS Defender| Royal Navy

 

[RobWilliams]

More proof that it's NOT Defender.......

HMS Defender| Royal Navy

Or there's some potential for it to be Diamond isn't there? She's only East of Suez so heading back to Cyprus wouldn't be too difficult would it?

Also, a nice bit of info from a FOI request to the MOD about HMS Ocean (i've added the doc as an attachment but please ignore the stupid questions about conformal fuel tanks for the F-35B, just thought "why not, worth a punt"

Me: Is the MOD looking at a potential future replacement for HMS Ocean after her decommissioning date of 2018? (That's the date I have anyway)

MOD: 6. A decision will be made in the next Strategic Defence and Security Review in 2015.

So whilst they're not keen on actually releasing what they plan to do, that shows they are looking at it anyway. If that's a good thing or not i'm not sure

Then also, It's interesting to note how they worded the answer to my first question

Me: 1: Will the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force operate the F-35B indefinitely or is there an option for the Royal Air Force to purchase another variant at a later date like the A variant at some point in the future?

MOD: 1. The UK continually reviews its capability requirements. The UK has committed to the F35-B programme to deliver the aircraft component of its carrier Strike capability. It is possible that future combat air requirements/needs may be delivered by different variants of the JSF.

I know it's not exactly anything specific, but you'd have thought if they thought B would be all they needed then they would just essentially say "Nah, B is fiiine".

 

[1805]

Or there's some potential for it to be Diamond isn't there? She's only East of Suez so heading back to Cyprus wouldn't be too difficult would it?

Also, a nice bit of info from a FOI request to the MOD about HMS Ocean (i've added the doc as an attachment but please ignore the stupid questions about conformal fuel tanks for the F-35B, just thought "why not, worth a punt"



So whilst they're not keen on actually releasing what they plan to do, that shows they are looking at it anyway. If that's a good thing or not i'm not sure

Then also, It's interesting to note how they worded the answer to my first question



I know it's not exactly anything specific, but you'd have thought if they thought B would be all they needed then they would just essentially say "Nah, B is fiiine".

I think you will learn as you get a bit older, that if you can avoid saying anything, you do. Once the carriers have F35b there will be little use for any other versions or Typhoon. If you care to look at the RAF combat record Post 1945 to 1991 it is fairly thin. I think there is one recorded kill.

 

[1805]

No indeed - I was simply talking about why Artisan might not be viable in a high threat environment and what alternatives I'd possibly prefer something more capable. I'm disappointed you didn't apparently read any of that part of the post and chose to respond to an entirely tertiary matter instead.

At least we're finally agreed you can't send a patrol craft to do a frigate's job though, progress of sorts.

I don't think I did, the INS Hanit was better equiped to stop a SSM than HMS Cornwall.

 

[deepsixteen]

I don't think I did, the INS Hanit was better equiped to stop a SSM than HMS Cornwall.

Hi
Really 1805 Radar mast height alone gives Cornwall the edge and I would not choose Barak over Sea Wolf; you have noticed how high the goalkeeper is on Cornwall.
Deepsixteen

 

[1805]

Hi
Really 1805 Radar mast height alone gives Cornwall the edge and I would not choose Barak over Sea Wolf; you have noticed how high the goalkeeper is on Cornwall.
Deepsixteen

Well I am not sure Phalanx & Barak v Goalkeeper & Boxed launched Sea Wolf. Difficult call I think Barak is more modern, slightly heavier missile/warhead. I don't know if the boxed launched Sea Wolf had the greater range and general updates the VLS had?

I just feel in a confined enviroment specialist craft would be more useful than a GP Frigate, which is bit of a "jack of all trades" The best feature of a Type 22 is it was designed to carry 2 Lynx....I bet they never carried 2 (just a guess no evidence to support it), but the Gulf would seem the place where they should have been carrying 2.

We have pretty much a permanent commitment to the Gulf, so a specialist craft could make sense. I am not saying the Visby is it, personally something nearer the Skjold or Hamina classes (relace the SSM with RHIBs), working with CB90s, all supported by a LPD.

 

[swerve]

I think you will learn as you get a bit older, that if you can avoid saying anything, you do. Once the carriers have F35b there will be little use for any other versions or Typhoon. If you care to look at the RAF combat record Post 1945 to 1991 it is fairly thin. I think there is one recorded kill.

Combat is more than air-air. The RAF dropped quite a few bombs in that time, destroying aircraft on the ground in the process, as well as other targets.

 

[RobWilliams]

I just feel in a confined enviroment specialist craft would be more useful than a GP Frigate, which is bit of a "jack of all trades" The best feature of a Type 22 is it was designed to carry 2 Lynx....I bet they never carried 2 (just a guess no evidence to support it), but the Gulf would seem the place where they should have been carrying 2.

Plenty of people take a pop at the Type 45 for being too specialised and that it only does a few select tasks (albeit very well) and this raised an important question, can the RN with a projected 19 escorts afford to have a select number of specialised ships or have the same ships with a bit more variety?

As to being the 'jack of all trades', I think that'd be going a little too far. Compared to the T26 ASW variants there's only one area that it would be handicapped and that is ASW and then compared to the Type 23, it'll probably be more effective in most of the roles that it could potentially be employed in (As you see, i'm very fond of not being definitive).

As to 2 Lynx on the Type 22, if you check out the latest graphics of the T26 (I know, not set in stone yadda-yadda), unlike the T45 (which has 2 compartments either side of the hanger containing boats, I forget the technical terms) the T26s compartments are located aft of the hanger so therefore although the width of the hanger may be smaller in general, the fact that it doesn't have the same compartments not restricting the width of the hangar means it could potentially hold 2 Lynx like the T45 can.

 

[Systems Adict]

I don't think I did, the INS Hanit was better equiped to stop a SSM than HMS Cornwall.

I beg to differ...

Hanit was DAMN LUCKY !!

Read the report...

CDR Salamander: INS Hanit Analysis

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4aOmucPTb-IVldVN2J5SkJvZWs/edit?pli=1


BIG THANKS & hat tip to one of my fav bloggers CDR Salamander..

 

[1805]

I beg to differ...

Hanit was DAMN LUCKY !!

Read the report...

CDR Salamander: INS Hanit Analysis

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4aOmucPTb-IVldVN2J5SkJvZWs/edit?pli=1


BIG THANKS & hat tip to one of my fav bloggers CDR Salamander..

Thanks for posting this, it's a very good assessment and informative. I didn't actually know a 2nd ship was hit and sunk. Also I had assumed it was the smaller C701 missile, because of the reports and clearly a mistaken view that Hezbollah couldn't operate such a sophisticated weapon. The mixed blessing of the crane does indicate the need for ships in this space to adopt an extreme stealth profile. It's a great pity the ships systems/weapons did not engage the missile, so we could see how effective they would have been.

I am sure the Iranians provided the missiles to test them, pure speculation but I wonder if their technicians actually operated the missile. There can be little doubt they would use them in the Gulf if things went hot......not a place for elderly frigates!

 

[RobWilliams]

HMS Defender joins the fleet, but won't be operational until next year, it also says that HMS Duncan will sail for the first time in August.

Sun shine as £1bn Defender signs for the Royal Navy | Royal Navy

Defender now faces months of training before she’s ready to take her place in the line as one of the most advanced air defence destroyers in the world. The £1bn warship is due to be declared operational next year.

Of the four ships ahead of Defender in her class, Diamond, Daring and Dauntless are all on their maiden deployments, whilst HMS Dragon fired her main Sea Viper air defence missile system for the first time earlier this month.

The final vessel in the Type 45 programme, HMS Duncan, is in the last stages of completion at Scotstoun. She sails for the first time next month.

 

[Systems Adict]

I am sure the Iranians provided the missiles to test them, pure speculation but I wonder if their technicians actually operated the missile. There can be little doubt they would use them in the Gulf if things went hot......not a place for elderly frigates!

Elderly frigates ??

INS Hanit was brand new / state of the art , at the time of the attack & she succumbed due to her sensors being in stand by mode (effectively switched off) & everyone pretty much being away for a cup of tea !

It has nothing to do with age, or superior equipment, more wrong place wrong time.

With the T-22's being rotated with T-23's, T-42's & now T-45's the chance of such things happening again (such as the HMS Cornwall incident), are slim.

SA

 

[RobWilliams]

Seems like the roumers about another split buy for the UK are back

UK Defence Secretary Philip Hammond has signalled a major revision to the UK's plan for procuring the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), with a sizeable cut in the expected number of F-35B short take-off/vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft purchased and the possible acquisition of a second variant: the conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) F-35A.

In remarks on 19 July in the United States, Hammond said the UK would order 48 F-35Bs to equip the UK's future carrier strike force. He added that a follow-on F-35 buy would be set out in a future Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR), with the aim of replacing the Eurofighter Typhoon in UK service.

Hammond was in the US to attend the handover of the UK's first F-35B (BK-1) at Lockheed Martin's Fort Worth facility. The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has confirmed his comments, telling IHS Jane's : "The defence secretary said that initially the UK would buy 48 jets for the aircraft carriers and announce at a later date what the final numbers would be. We will not finalise our decisions on the F-35 programme until SDSR in 2015."

As promising as a B/A purchase would be (i.e the FAA could tell the RAF to get stuffed in regards to trying to borrow some B's and thus could have a dedicated carrier strike contingent) I don't see much in the article that explicitly mentions buying the A except from the "replacing Typhoon" comment which would IMO require the A but anyway.

I'm not putting much faith in the article, it mainly seems like a "Well, they didn't say they WON'T do it!!" thing and won't really hear much until after the 2015 SDSR.

What'd you guys think?

 

[kev 99]

Might be a bit of selected PR/sneaky leak by the RAF, after all they haven't really got much interest in STOVL and I'm sure they'd rather have the improved performance/lower cost of the F35A. Still then again the it's just as likely I'm talking a load of old tosh.

 

[RobWilliams]

Might be a bit of selected PR/sneaky leak by the RAF, after all they haven't really got much interest in STOVL and I'm sure they'd rather have the improved performance/lower cost of the F35A. Still then again the it's just as likely I'm talking a load of old tosh.

Most probably, the MOD will be keeping their mouths tight shut about anything so they won't have to go through another "U-turn"-eqsue scenario where the media points and says "well, you said this to us before!"

It's a move i'd like so see happen, but I won't get my hopes up

 

[1805]

Seems like the roumers about another split buy for the UK are back



As promising as a B/A purchase would be (i.e the FAA could tell the RAF to get stuffed in regards to trying to borrow some B's and thus could have a dedicated carrier strike contingent) I don't see much in the article that explicitly mentions buying the A except from the "replacing Typhoon" comment which would IMO require the A but anyway.

I'm not putting much faith in the article, it mainly seems like a "Well, they didn't say they WON'T do it!!" thing and won't really hear much until after the 2015 SDSR.

What'd you guys think?

I know only a reported comment, but I wonder do they really mean replace the Typhoon or Tornado? I would have thought Typhoons would be around for another 20+ years.

 

[StobieWan]

Plenty of people take a pop at the Type 45 for being too specialised and that it only does a few select tasks (albeit very well) and this raised an important question, can the RN with a projected 19 escorts afford to have a select number of specialised ships or have the same ships with a bit more variety?

As to being the 'jack of all trades', I think that'd be going a little too far. Compared to the T26 ASW variants there's only one area that it would be handicapped and that is ASW and then compared to the Type 23, it'll probably be more effective in most of the roles that it could potentially be employed in (As you see, i'm very fond of not being definitive).

As to 2 Lynx on the Type 22, if you check out the latest graphics of the T26 (I know, not set in stone yadda-yadda), unlike the T45 (which has 2 compartments either side of the hanger containing boats, I forget the technical terms) the T26s compartments are located aft of the hanger so therefore although the width of the hanger may be smaller in general, the fact that it doesn't have the same compartments not restricting the width of the hangar means it could potentially hold 2 Lynx like the T45 can.

Interesting blog post on the Type 26 and contrasting approaches in European frigates:

UK Armed Forces Commentary: The Type 26 and the modern european frigates

Worth a read, and has some new stuff on the current state of play with the Type 26 - I'm starting to get a bit more excited about it to be honest.


Ian