Syria Shoots Down Turkish Fighter Jet

[StobieWan]

Mayday would have provided proof of an illegal overflight. A bit like being a burglar with a complete set of safecracking tools etc getting stuck in the place you were trying to knock off. You'd hardly be trying to call the police and emergency services to get you out would you?

Slight problem - the Turks have already put their hands in their and confessed to crossing into Syrian airspace - so that's not a major deal.

In any event, the aircraft was found in international waters - and my point was really to say that the aircraft went down apparently very rapidly - no ejection, both crew on board - if they'd been hit over Syria and subsequently struggled to that position, there'd have plenty of opportunity to bail out.

 

[Sampanviking]

This report appears to totally contradict theTurkish claim as to its Phantom being in international waters. A senior Turkish official has now mentioned MANPADs as being the culprit.

Syria to Turkey: Show me the missile - Features - Al Jazeera English

And in this report, the Russians claim to have radar data.

Why Turkey won't go to war with Syria - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

As seems always the case with this crisis, the popular headlines scream out the disingenuous and much later the more heavyweight investigative journalists and commentators publish a general debunking.
Sadly such articles are not reproduced or referenced in the Sun (or whatever the leading low brow morning daily is in your country) so the majority remain unaware and still blindly follow the official line.

Do read MK Bhadrakumar's article as linked below. As a retired Senior Indian Diplomat who has seen service in both Russia (when SU) and Turkey, and therefore very much an insider, he can hardly be dismissed as a conspiracy theorist.

Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs

I also found the Stephen Starr extract fascinating as it provided a taste of the texture and detail that our mainstream, two dimensional media, systematically exclude.

Asia Times Online :: Syrian divisions in full force

 

[gf0012-aust]

Do read MK Bhadrakumar's article as linked below. As a retired Senior Indian Diplomat who has seen service in both Russia (when SU) and Turkey, and therefore very much an insider, he can hardly be dismissed as a conspiracy theorist.

prev diplomatic experience is no guarantee of balanced comment.

eg for years a bevy of Indian ex and then current diplomats accused Aust of using the RANto send subs to stalk an Indian carrier during the Pakistan 72 conflict and Fiji in 87. In fact they oft touted it as a reason for accelerating the development of their modern carrier construct (on ex soviet gear)

the only problem is that no RAN Oberons ever entered the Indian Ocean during the Pakistan-Indian troubles of 72 and in 87 they were busy cold warring up in the sth china sea and near vladivostok (and ignored the reality that the Aust Govt had offered to extract Indian disapora from Fiji if things went pear shaped. The other issue being that RAN had no need to traverse the northern indian ocean as it was already a parking lot for the 6th Fleet which had its own escort of nukes running the gauntlet. ASW gear of the time on the russian and indian side was pretty ordinary, so US nukes had a field day in the early 70's. Having a conventional do the long haul into the NI Ocean when nukes could sprint and sit with ease and not be detected should have made anyone realise it was a silly claim to make

IOW, local colouring for a specific audience despite facts showing otherwise.

I'd add that from my own personal experience, and actually having worked in India, plus having a relative who served the longest attachment in aust govt history to the Indian Emassy, I can tell you that the Indian equiv of State Dept is decidedly snippt at all things British (far more parochial than Indian military officers, esp Navy and Army, AF tends to have UK traditions but more Russian attachment to operational issues)
I suspect that some of the Indian Exchequer/Foreign Service mentality is blinking through that prose. Thats not meant to dismiss it at all.

I gather you haven't seen much of the Indian dailies either - as they're not all Times of India quality - most of the Indian dailys make the UK Mirror equivs look decidedly tame. "Hysterical posturing" would be an understatement of some magnitude

 

[Marc 1]

Slight problem - the Turks have already put their hands in their and confessed to crossing into Syrian airspace - so that's not a major deal.

Only if the Turks had declared the aircraft was in Syrian airspace before it was shot down. Think about it. The crew aware they had been engaged decide to keep emissions quiet and exit the area so as not to provide evidence. The Turkish govenment only confessed after the event.

In any event, the aircraft was found in international waters - and my point was really to say that the aircraft went down apparently very rapidly - no ejection, both crew on board - if they'd been hit over Syria and subsequently struggled to that position, there'd have plenty of opportunity to bail out.

Yep, maybe the pilots thought they had it under control and could recover the airframe - then a part that is deteriorating breaks and bang down they go with very little warning because they are at extremely low altitude. At high subsonic speed they would barely have had time to realise that something had finally let go let alone go for the eject handle.

Can you think of a more plausible explanation for an aircraft that was evidently hit much closer to the coast staying silent (maybe comms failure?) and heading directly out toward international waters? They were 'guilty' and were trying to conceal the 'crime'.

 

[swerve]

Please look at the maps both Turkey and Syria have published. Your scenario doesn't fit either of them. They show the RF-4 heading towards the coast when it crashed, not away.

It was found in Syrian waters, not international, about where the Turks said it would be, a bit further out than the Syrians said.