Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Abraham Gubler

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The issue with submarine diesels is their ability to handle running under a snorkel in transit. This places them under lots of pressure as their air supply is frequently being cut off as waves cover the inlet. The Hedemora V18 diesels (1.4 MW from their generators) for the Collins class came from an OEM who had never built submarine diesels so big and had supplied previous submarine diesels to a Navy that rarely used them for transit operation. So they are not robust enough for long term operation under these conditions without an extensive maintenance regime. The French generators and motors have not earned many laurels.

MTU of Germany have a good reputation for building submarine diesels resilient enough to the snorkel transit challenge. However they don’t build them big enough for the typical three diesel-generator per SEA 1000 fleet submarine size (>2 MW). There have been proposals (BMT) to build a new fleet submarine with four MTU (<2 MW) diesel-generators so as to leverage these off the shelf MTU submarine diesels. The Japanese use Kawasaki V12 engines (<2 MW) after previously using Mitsubishi/MAN V8s. The Japanese have lower transit speed requirements to the RAN so have never packed in the same level of internal combustion power as our requirements.

But of course Admiral Moffat wasn’t just talking about diesels but the whole generator, motor setup. The Japanese have been using an interesting tandem Toshiba motor set up that produces more power than the single legacy motor on the Collins. Having two motors would appear to offer a lot of redundancy and advantages for tailoring the output to transit (one motor) and sprint (two motors).
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I would imagine the 4 x sets wouldn't optimally fit in a regular Collins hull?

I noticed at:
Lessons of the Collins Submarine Program for Improved Oversight of Defence Procurement &ndash; Parliament of Australia (which is a great read for anyone who wants to learn a bit more about collins, abit dated).

That there seems to be issues utilising the turbocharger instead of the supercharger? Which I guess comes with adapting an engine with people with little experience rather OTS from a known/proven/experienced manufacturer.

If we could source proven appropriate Japanese submarine components then Collins II might advert most of the risk and issues Collins I suffered.

Americans seem quiet happy to work with us regarding hull form and systems/sensors. If the Japanese can supply us with suitable sized engines/generators, then it would seem to be the making of a very useful submarine.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Americans seem quiet happy to work with us regarding hull form and systems/sensors. If the Japanese can supply us with suitable sized engines/generators, then it would seem to be the making of a very useful submarine.
energy generation impacts on fitout - and that does impact straight away

the japanese also bring metallurgy and digital systems advantages to the table..

they're one of the few large diesels that can take on, hunt, dive with nukes....
 
Something a bit off-topic - kinda oddball

I was reading a book today in the library. Came across a WW2 plane called an airspeed fleet shadower. It was ugly and slow. Idea was a carrier borne aircraft that would follow an enemy fleet, and report back on what the enemy fleet was up to. It was a flawed concept for the time, it had folding wings.

However as we are getting two carriers (LHDs to be precise), a STOL aircraft like this would provide long endurance, low cost airborne early warning aircraft with better endurance than a helicopter. Obviously it would need to be equipped with a radar. Note that a catapult and arrestor wires are not required due to the slow landing speed of 38 knots. Endurance is 11 hours. It could even double as a general purpose fly stuff on fly stuff off plane.

An updated version of this plane with a bit higher airspeed, a good radar to detect aircraft and ships (possibly periscopes too) might be useful. With new engines and better aerodynamics a better plane could be built with the advantage of 70 years of aviation technology progress

anyway, here is the link
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspeed_Fleet_Shadower"]Airspeed Fleet Shadower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

also a similar aircraft
General Aircraft Fleet Shadower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

kinda cool, yes? (why am I not optimistic of lots of people agreeing with me on this)
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
The aircraft you speak of already exist, they are called UAV's. No reason why a relatively small surface search radar equiped UAV cannot be based on the LHD's.
 
Yes, I know

technically a UAV is better, but this is so cool

oh got the enduance mixed up, GAL 38 was 11 hours, AS39 was 6 hours. But the first was heavier, 4 tonnes full load, vs around 3 tonnes full load.

I guess in a few years they will buy a martinised predator type aircraft, but it wont look as cool as these ones
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
energy generation impacts on fitout - and that does impact straight away

the japanese also bring metallurgy and digital systems advantages to the table..

they're one of the few large diesels that can take on, hunt, dive with nukes....
While we are on the subject, a question I asked a while ago, would/could this style of sub use a propulsion system simular to the Virginia's ? Could it have the available power to run such a system or would it be too taxing on a Conventional V Nuke ?

Cheers
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
THE Gillard Government will try to boost the sagging morale of sailors and other military personnel on border protection duty in northern Australia with a new medal.

Navy sailors and air force crews have been working tirelessly on Operation Resolute and its predecessor Operation Relex with little or no thanks or recognition.

It is understood Prime Minister Julia Gillard and navy chief Vice-Admiral Ray Griggs will travel to Darwin next week to announce the award.

According to Defence sources, they will receive the Australian Service Medal (ASM) that is awarded to military personnel for service in peacekeeping and other "non-warlike" operations.

In the past the clasps attached to the medal have been awarded for operations in places such as Bougainville, Cambodia, East Timor and the Solomon Islands. The new clasps would be for Operation Resolute and Operation Relex.

The ASM is a nickel-silver medal with a modified shield of the Australian Coat of Arms surmounted by the Defence Force Joint Service Emblem super-imposed on a background of the meridians of longitude on the obverse.

The reverse has clusters of mimosa blossoms surrounding a Federation Star bearing the inscription "For Service".

The ribbon colours are primarily variations of the Australian green and gold in tones of the Australian bush. The central brown stripe symbolises the earth of Australia.

There has also been talk of a possible new award for personnel working for Border Protection Command.

Morale among sailors and RAAF crews deployed to Operation Resolute has been falling steadily in recent months as their workloads have increased.

In addition, the fleet of 14 Darwin based Armidale patrol boats is showing the strain with seven vessels to be ready for sea at any one time.

According to Navy sources, the new medal would provide a huge boost to the morale of sailors who spend weeks at sea in cramped vessels dealing with often angry, desperate and frightened asylum seekers.
Military medal for sailors on sea patrol | News.com.au

If anyone needs to buy votes from the defence force, its this Government.
This has been a long standing moan from those who have served on Border protection, and my question is how far back will they date it, will it be from the time Labour was in govt, or when howard was in and the boats stopped...
Then there comes the question, does being on the line count, and how many days? do you need to be so many days in the year, so many days in your career, and would that entitle those who were on Major units in the early 2000s to one? this was always rejected mostly because the headache it will bring to those who have to process it is massive, and the sheer number of people required to review cases has been reduced with APS cuts...:rolleyes:
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Military medal for sailors on sea patrol | News.com.au

If anyone needs to buy votes from the defence force, its this Government.
This has been a long standing moan from those who have served on Border protection, and my question is how far back will they date it, will it be from the time Labour was in govt, or when howard was in and the boats stopped...
Then there comes the question, does being on the line count, and how many days? do you need to be so many days in the year, so many days in your career, and would that entitle those who were on Major units in the early 2000s to one? this was always rejected mostly because the headache it will bring to those who have to process it is massive, and the sheer number of people required to review cases has been reduced with APS cuts...:rolleyes:
Our bunch of pollies decided to award a medal (NZ Defence Service Medal) to all those who had three years service in NZDF with clasps for Regular, Territorial etc. This went back to just after end of WW2 and excluded those who got, IIRC, the NZ Service Medal. So what they have done is they work it on age and the old fullas go first and it works progressively back towards the younger age brackets. The medal is also given to family of deceased elligible personnel. Those who serve at the moment are given it when they have done three years. The rest of us wait until our age cohort comes up. If we want to be presented with it formally we can have it done at the local RSA (RSL). Mine got delivered in the mail and it's still in its box. It's reasonably quick and you can apply online. I would think that if the ADF go ahead with it a similar approach maybe taken. That would seem logical but then again it is Defence Forces we are talking about, so it will probably be more of hurry up and wait.
 
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icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Our bunch of pollies decided to award a medal (NZ Defence Service Medal) to all those who had three years service in NZDF with clasps for Regular, Territorial etc. This went back to just after end of WW2 and excluded those who got, IIRC, the NZ Service Medal. So what they have done is they work it on age and the old fullas go first and it works progressively back towards the younger age brackets. The medal is also given to family of deceased elligible personnel. Those who serve at the moment are given it when they have done three years. The rest of us wait until our age cohort comes up. If we want to be presented with it formally we can have it done at the local RSA (RSL). Mine got delivered in the mail and it's still in its box. It's reasonably quick and you can apply online. I would think that if the ADF go ahead with it a similar approach maybe taken. That would seem logical but then again it is Defence Forces we are talking about, so it will probably be more of hurry up and wait.
We have the Australian Defence Medal or the "thanks for coming medal" as its known. This has been traced back and is available after 4 years continous service. Im nearly hit the 5 year mark, and have yet to have mine on record because of a computer error, and will not see the medal for much longer after that. My intake is yet to receive thiers as well, and the normal wait is around 6-12months, longer if unlucky.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
If anyone needs to buy votes from the defence force, its this Government.
This has been a long standing moan from those who have served on Border protection, and my question is how far back will they date it, will it be from the time Labour was in govt, or when howard was in and the boats stopped...
Then there comes the question, does being on the line count, and how many days? do you need to be so many days in the year, so many days in your career, and would that entitle those who were on Major units in the early 2000s to one? this was always rejected mostly because the headache it will bring to those who have to process it is massive, and the sheer number of people required to review cases has been reduced with APS cuts...:rolleyes:
I doubt its a vote buying exercise. You get the ASM for 60 days service in a TAG so surely border protection deserves one.
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I doubt its a vote buying exercise. You get the ASM for 60 days service in a TAG so surely border protection deserves one.
I got my ASM for doing 30 days off the Solomons in 2001 so will be interesting to see what the qualifying period will be. Also noting in the press release Op Relex was metioned which would indicate that the medal will be back dated to at least Sept 2001 when the op started, will have to wait and see.
Cheers
 

AussieWEEO

New Member
It will be interesting to see how far back this medal will be dated. All of my enlisted career was spent in Darwin, either on - or in direct support of patrol boats. This was back in the early, mid and late 90's right up until 2001. Including the apprehension of the Harapan Satu, among countless other SIEV and illegal fishing vessels. Border protection was our daily business, as it is for the boat sailors today. Before border protection had an "Op" name.
Whether it is about buying votes, I am not going to comment - what it should be (and hopefully is) about is formal recognition of the countless operational days at sea our sailors and officers endure to keep our borders safe and economic interests free from poaching.
"Back in the day" we had a rotation of 8 weeks at sea and 2 weeks alongside (in maintenance periods).
Well done to the government for this proposal - lets just hope it is for the right reasons and executed the right way.
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Not sure if anyone has seen this but NuShips/Hulls Canberra and Adelaide together
There are several good photos by our Spanish mates over at fotosdebarcos.com of Adelaide launch Google Translate

In addition there is some very good photos by the revistanaval magazinehttp://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.revistanaval.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Drevistanaval%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3Do4s%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial%26biw%3D1660%26bih%3D858%26prmd%3Dimvns&sa=X&ei=xdUAULyODaO3iQex5Ij5Bw&ved=0CEYQ7gEwAA
 
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ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Naval base to be opened to cruise liners

The Government commissions a independent inquiry on the use of FBE by Cruise liners and surprise surprise when the inquiry comes out saying that Cruise liner use is totally incompatible and should not go ahead, the Government wait’s a couple of months and just does it anyway.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-15/naval-base-to-be-opened-to-cruise-liners/4131244

My Labor leanings continue to be severely tested :mad3
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
The Government commissions a independent inquiry on the use of FBE by Cruise liners and surprise surprise when the inquiry comes out saying that Cruise liner use is totally incompatible and should not go ahead, the Government wait’s a couple of months and just does it anyway.

Naval base to be opened to cruise liners - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

My Labor leanings continue to be severely tested :mad3
Three Berths? Given the size of those things isnt that half the base pretty much?
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Three Berths? Given the size of those things isnt that half the base pretty much?
Where did you 3 berths from? But yes one of those Monsters would take three berths.

The only thing that may soften this blow is if the Government agrees to build the new pier on the other side of GI (Where Stalwart "Mediterranean" berthed back in the 70's and 80's).

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5440&d=1342319101
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5439&d=1342318814

The Pro Cruise Liner lobby's offer of having the Navy using Glebe Island and White Bay is a logistical nightmare for the Navy.
 
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StevoJH

The Bunker Group
I misread the word visits as 'berths', but still, it would take up a massive chunk of that side of the islands.

Will the RAN be mooring its ships out in the harbour over the summer with launches being used to do storing and crew transport? I would presume you would need a larger watch aboard when in harbour as well since its outside the controlled environment of the Naval Base.
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I misread the word visits as 'berths', but still, it would take up a massive chunk of that side of the islands.

Will the RAN be mooring its ships out in the harbour over the summer with launches being used to do storing and crew transport? I would presume you would need a larger watch aboard when in harbour as well since its outside the controlled environment of the Naval Base.
The proposal by the Pro Cruise ship lobby was/is to have Navy ships use Sydney Ports Glebe Island and White Bay Facility when THEIR beths are being used by commercial interests.

Glebe Island - Google Maps

Because apparently Naval ships can tie up any old place where there is space:confused:
 
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