The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[RobWilliams]

We hope that MOD is looking for a replacement for HMS Ocean. I think the Libyan operation gave MOD a serious wake-up call as to why decommissioning an aircraft carrier is a bad idea. They could have kept the carriers or looked into America for LHA's or buy into France's Mistrial. They really need to have one for the Falklands and one for other commitments.

I reckon the MOD won't get a replacement for Ocean, but for me they could only do this if they wait till Albion/Bulwark need replacing and throw the whole lot in for 2 LHDs with a QE acting as a secondary LPH (but still with a strong JSF core).

Looking at Wiki (Albion + Juan Carlos as benchmarks) it seems like it would be a massive increase in amphibious capability in regards to the number of troops and whatnot carried and it would be incredibly powerful in regards to it's rotary capacity, hell even a few F35Bs could climb aboard.

To me, that seems like the best way they would be able to spin not getting a replacement for Ocean (admittedly a QE could do it, but I wouldn't want it too) but will they do it? Doubt it.

In regards to Lybia, in my opinion it reenforced the need for fixed wing aircraft and the only reason Ocean was used was because it simply wasn't available, if anything it might have made a few pencil necks start thinking "Well, if we had a carrier it'll be able to do everything Ocean can do, so why get another?"

 

[StevoJH]

If the RAN wanted to, they could have taken what is left of the Tarawa class amphibious assault ship such as the USS Tarawa (LHA-1), USS Nassau (LHA-4) or even the USS Peleliu (LHA-5). As a loan until their carriers come online. Even the Royal Australian Navy could have done the same thing by borrowing USS Tarawa (LHA-1), USS Nassau (LHA-4) or even the USS Peleliu (LHA-5) until their LHA comes online. It would have kept institutional knowledge of LHA operations fresh on their minds and for the Australians a learning tool on LHA operations.

You realise those ships are older than the Invincible class and require massive crews to operate along with having ancient steam power plants right?

 

[Zhaow]

You realise those ships are older than the Invincible class and require massive crews to operate along with having ancient steam power plants right?

You want to keep the institutional knowledge of how to operate an LHA type carrier and the US Navy can loan out the USS Tarawa (LHA-1), USS Nassau (LHA-4) or even the USS Peleliu (LHA-5) to the RAN and RN temporary until their ships come online. It could be used to train crews and even teach them how to operate in an LHA or MEU(SOC) environment.

As for the Juan Carlos I, I would think they would be a perfect replacement for the Invincible class aircraft carrier and you would have an LHA that dose traditional amphibious operations, Sea control, ASW and ASUW in one ship. If it were me, I would even pair the Juan Carlos I with the Albion class landing platform dock or any other LPD or LHA. If I were the Royal Navy, I would seriously look at getting the Juan Carlos I LHD to replace their Invincible class aircraft carrier, If the QE carrier is going to be an issue for the Royal Navy.

 

[Cadredave]

You want to keep the institutional knowledge of how to operate an LHA type carrier and the US Navy can loan out the USS Tarawa (LHA-1), USS Nassau (LHA-4) or even the USS Peleliu (LHA-5) to the RAN and RN temporary until their ships come online.

To keep Institutional knowledge you first have to have that knowledge for the RAN that ended many years ago with the scrapping of HMAS Melbourne, what your proposal is suggesting is for the RAN to rebuild that knowledge that was lost from scratch a long and expensive process and if im wrong then my ANZAC brothers will correct me.

It could be used to train crews and even teach them how to operate in an LHA or MEU(SOC) environment.

For the RAN to use any of the following USS Tarawa (LHA-1), USS Nassau (LHA-4) or USS Peleliu (LHA-5), would require them to rebuild schools that were disestablished a long time ago (Steam generation plant, boilers, turbines, etc) where would that knowledge come from? plus the cost of a refit to the ships C4 system it wont be cheap or even worth it. RAN would be better off sending teams to Spain or Spanish trainers come to Auz to conduct train the trainers on the different systems.

As for the Juan Carlos I, I would think they would be a perfect replacement for the Invincible class aircraft carrier and you would have an LHA that dose traditional amphibious operations, Sea control, ASW and ASUW in one ship. If it were me, I would even pair the Juan Carlos I with the Albion class landing platform dock or any other LPD or LHA. If I were the Royal Navy, I would seriously look at getting the Juan Carlos I LHD to replace their Invincible class aircraft carrier, If the QE carrier is going to be an issue for the Royal Navy.

does the RN really need another ship im sure they are more than fine with what they have already.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Australia really did want a ship as capable as a Wasp but it is instantly apparent it would require the whole RAN to crew the bloody thing and we could only afford 1, and an older one would no doubt be a money pit. Not to mention its capabilities are a little big for the Army (are we taking the whole Aus Army for the trip, We would be lucky to fill the thing with all our operational M1A1's?). They are great ships, and great for the USMC. But not for Australia. With one ship, the capability is totally unreliable and therefore useless.

Australia never operated a LHA/LHD the size of a wasp. The things are more than twice the size of the largest aircraft carrier we ever operated.

The Mistral and the JC1 are really the viable ships for middle sized countries. JC1 fitted our requirements (but either would have been do able). Its crewing is far far lower a couple of hundred instead of over a thousand, its all modern, its still big at 30,000t fully loaded and we could afford 2, and operate at least 2 of them for less than ships we currently operate. We get more flexibility and can deploy one or both. We can build bits of them locally, help offset some of the costs and get a good 30-40 years out of them. No one is disappointed with the increase in capability the two Canberra class ships will provide, its like going from a VW combi that you can only get started half the time to two fully operational Death stars. The only wet dream the RAN have, is adding another.

JC1 may be worthwhile for the RN to look at. But not at the moment. They have all right capability as it is and priorities in other areas. Maybe in 10 or 15 years when some of the ships are retiring, at which point two local build JC1 would offer fine capability, complimenting the QE and the other ships (bays). Im sure the RN will get plenty of chance to measure the effectiveness of the JC1 when on operations with either Spain or Australia.

I don't see what USS America would offer the UK. In fact I think it would be better the other way round. The USA should build the QE locally for the USMC and foreign markets. As an all aviation ship I think the QE has it over the America, but of course she looks too much like a US super carrier so it would never happen.

I would imagine there would be a few markets for a US built QE with the scale and efficiency of US big builds. If they ever wanted to annoy the hell out of the Chinese by building carriers for the rest of the world (if they could all afford to operate them, which is doubtful.). Could you imagine the uproar if say Japan bought 3 or 4 american built QE and started operating them just off the coast of China as part of a larger american fleet?..

 

[RobWilliams]

As for the Juan Carlos I, I would think they would be a perfect replacement for the Invincible class aircraft carrier and you would have an LHA that dose traditional amphibious operations, Sea control, ASW and ASUW in one ship. If it were me, I would even pair the Juan Carlos I with the Albion class landing platform dock or any other LPD or LHA. If I were the Royal Navy, I would seriously look at getting the Juan Carlos I LHD to replace their Invincible class aircraft carrier, If the QE carrier is going to be an issue for the Royal Navy.

The QE is going to be exactly what the RN needs, a modern, very capable (relatively cheap to run too) and flexible strike carrier. I really am failing to see what specifically makes the Juan Carlos so much more suitable than a QE, after all apart from amphibious operations the QE could do more in an ASuW and ASW role than a Juan Carlos. Why should the RN fork out for a ship which can do amphib operations when they don't want any more OR should they pay out for a QE?

Not to mention that does the Juan Carlos have the capacity to use the SRVL technique or is it restricted to vertical landings only? If not then that's a big deal IMO.

I'm really not understanding why you believe that the RN needs any more amphibious assault capability? Personally, I wouldn't mind them lumping Ocean, Albion + Bulwark in all together and get back 2 LHDs and even then I still appreciate the flexibility of a dedicated LPH.

 

[Zhaow]

The QE is going to be exactly what the RN needs, a modern, very capable (relatively cheap to run too) and flexible strike carrier. I really am failing to see what specifically makes the Juan Carlos so much more suitable than a QE, after all apart from amphibious operations the QE could do more in an ASuW and ASW role than a Juan Carlos. Why should the RN fork out for a ship which can do amphib operations when they don't want any more OR should they pay out for a QE?

Not to mention that does the Juan Carlos have the capacity to use the SRVL technique or is it restricted to vertical landings only? If not then that's a big deal IMO.

I'm really not understanding why you believe that the RN needs any more amphibious assault capability? Personally, I wouldn't mind them lumping Ocean, Albion + Bulwark in all together and get back 2 LHDs and even then I still appreciate the flexibility of a dedicated LPH.

The way I was looking at it, you would at least want to have at least two carriers. On locally and one on station somewhere. For the Royal Navy, one can be available for the Falkland islands and the other for other areas. The Juan Carlos I would fit the bill as a secondary QE if the Royal Navy needs a carrier presence in the Falklands Island region. On top of it, you want flexibility to carry a royal marine regiment with all their battle gear to boot. Also it would give the Royal Navy to have the flexibility to have Royal marines for amphibious operations, should they be called for in the Falklands region.

 

[mikehotwheelz]

The way I was looking at it, you would at least want to have at least two carriers. On locally and one on station somewhere. For the Royal Navy, one can be available for the Falkland islands and the other for other. On top of it, you want flexibility to carry a royal marine regiment with all their battle gear to boot. Also it would give the Royal Navy to have the flexibility to have Royal marines for amphibious operations, should they be called for in the Falklands region.

There are Typhoons based at Mount Plesant Air Base, so why would aircraft carriers be needed to defend the Falklands?

 

[RobWilliams]

The way I was looking at it, you would at least want to have at least two carriers. On locally and one on station somewhere. For the Royal Navy, one can be available for the Falkland islands and the other for other areas. The Juan Carlos I would fit the bill as a secondary QE if the Royal Navy needs a carrier presence in the Falklands Island region. On top of it, you want flexibility to carry a royal marine regiment with all their battle gear to boot. Also it would give the Royal Navy to have the flexibility to have Royal marines for amphibious operations, should they be called for in the Falklands region.

If the RN needed a carrier presence in the South Atlantic, it would be post-invasion in which the QE would be called in, not to mention that all those capabilities (amphibious assault and so on) would all be completed cumulatively in a task force like last time. But that's leading on to the Falklands specifically so I won't go there.

Not to mention that it's not exactly neccessary to have an LPD stationed on the Falklands anyway.

 

[Zhaow]

If the RN needed a carrier presence in the South Atlantic, it would be post-invasion in which the QE would be called in, not to mention that all those capabilities (amphibious assault and so on) would all be completed cumulatively in a task force like last time. But that's leading on to the Falklands specifically so I won't go there.

Not to mention that it's not exactly neccessary to have an LPD stationed on the Falklands anyway.

That's why you want to have at least two carriers because what if the QE is tied up in the Falklands and then something comes up in the Persian Gulf. That's where the Juan Carlos I could fill the back up role for the QE that is being tied up in the Falklands. At the same time you would want an LHA their because it fulfills a presence role and letting the other side know that their their and they mean business.

As for the Typhoons how many are stationed at the Falklands and can they hold off the enemy.

Their was a rumor at the time, when the Brits were in the Falklands war where the Americans would loan out the USS Iwo Jima to the brits, if something bad happened. Here's the link to the story Information Dissemination: HMS Iwo Jima?

 

[kev 99]

That's why you want to have at least two carriers because what if the QE is tied up in the Falklands and then something comes up in the Persian Gulf. That's where the Juan Carlos I could fill the back up role for the QE that is being tied up in the Falklands. At the same time you would want an LHA their because it fulfills a presence role and letting the other side know that their their and they mean business.

That's what the Prince of Wales is for.

As for the Typhoons how many are stationed at the Falklands and can they hold off the enemy.

The only enemy in the region is Argentines and yes the 4 Typhoons at Mount Pleasant are enough for that.

The way I was looking at it, you would at least want to have at least two carriers. On locally and one on station somewhere. For the Royal Navy, one can be available for the Falkland islands and the other for other areas. The Juan Carlos I would fit the bill as a secondary QE if the Royal Navy needs a carrier presence in the Falklands Island region. On top of it, you want flexibility to carry a royal marine regiment with all their battle gear to boot. Also it would give the Royal Navy to have the flexibility to have Royal marines for amphibious operations, should they be called for in the Falklands region.

We have our own amphibious assualt ships for lugging marines around.

 

[StobieWan]

That's why you want to have at least two carriers because what if the QE is tied up in the Falklands and then something comes up in the Persian Gulf. That's where the Juan Carlos I could fill the back up role for the QE that is being tied up in the Falklands. At the same time you would want an LHA their because it fulfills a presence role and letting the other side know that their their and they mean business.

As for the Typhoons how many are stationed at the Falklands and can they hold off the enemy.

Their was a rumor at the time, when the Brits were in the Falklands war where the Americans would loan out the USS Iwo Jima to the brits, if something bad happened. Here's the link to the story Information Dissemination: HMS Iwo Jima?

This is reaching into fantasy fleet proportions - the RN and the UK cannot afford to run two major naval campaigns at a time - we don't have the manpower, the aircraft or the escorts to get into taming the middle east while simultaneously re-staging the Falklands war.

Let's not kid around, with a QE and a decent air wing, we can contribute usefully to an international effort or exert some regional influence in isolation but the idea we're going to be trying to do anything like you're suggesting is wishful (or fanciful) thinking.


Running back to the Falklands, can I just point you at the FI thread in the Strategy forum here rather than going back over the size of the garrison and the defending aircraft.

 

[STURM]

That's why you want to have at least two carriers because what if the QE is tied up in the Falklands and then something comes up in the Persian Gulf.

By the same token, one can ask what would happen if in addition to something flaring up in the Gulf, something also flared up at the same time in the Med, over Syria? You can't plan on covering all contingencies.

 

[swerve]

You want to keep the institutional knowledge of how to operate an LHA type carrier and the US Navy can loan out the USS Tarawa (LHA-1), USS Nassau (LHA-4) or even the USS Peleliu (LHA-5) to the RAN and RN temporary until their ships come online. It could be used to train crews and even teach them how to operate in an LHA or MEU(SOC) environment.

As for the Juan Carlos I, I would think they would be a perfect replacement for the Invincible class aircraft carrier and you would have an LHA that dose traditional amphibious operations, Sea control, ASW and ASUW in one ship. If it were me, I would even pair the Juan Carlos I with the Albion class landing platform dock or any other LPD or LHA. If I were the Royal Navy, I would seriously look at getting the Juan Carlos I LHD to replace their Invincible class aircraft carrier, If the QE carrier is going to be an issue for the Royal Navy.

What's this obsession with LHAs? How can we 'keep' knowledge we don't have? The RN has never operated an LHA or LHD, so doesn't have the institutional knowledge you refer to. Nor does it have the institutional knowledge to operate the steam plant of the Tarawa class ships: the RN scrapped its last steamship ten years ago. We'd have to reacquire that knowledge, learn how to use LHAs, hire a lot more crew . . . No, it's a bonkers idea. It would have been much more sensible, & far, far cheaper, just to keep an Invincible class in service - but the government decided that was too expensive, so where would we get the much larger sum to rent & operate a worn-out, maintenance-hungry, unreliable ship with a big crew & stuffed full of equipment we don't have spares for or anyone trained to use or repair?

Juan Carlos is an LHD. It's not an aircraft carrier. It can function as an auxiliary carrier, but not while operating as an LHD. It's slow. It has a small flight deck compared to a dedicated carrier of the same size. Why do you think an amphibious assault ship (of which we already have plenty) is a good replacement for an aircraft carrier?

You seem to want a ship which can carry a lot of RMs at the same time as fixed-wing aircraft. Why? We have two LPDs & three LSTs to carry marines & their kit, & six transports to back them up. That lot can carry far more soldiers & equipment than can be crammed into an aircraft carrier.

Also, why would we tie up a carrier in the Falklands? It would be a terrible waste of resources. The islands have a military airfield much bigger than any carrier, with ground troops, a guard ship, four Typhoons & facilities (including hardened shelters) for more, & we can fly in more pretty quickly. We only need a carrier down there if the islands have already been lost.

 

[Zhaow]

Ok guys, My thinking was this, if the MOD can't complete the QE in time or it's costing them too much. They can ask the US Navy if they Rent out either the USS Constellation, USS Kitty Hawk or the USS John F kennedy until the QE comes on line. If they can't do that, they can go with the Juan Carlos I LHD or get in on the America class LHA or the Wasp class amphibious assault ship

 

[RobWilliams]

Ok guys, My thinking was this, if the MOD can't complete the QE in time or it's costing them too much. They can ask the US Navy if they Rent out either the USS Constellation, USS Kitty Hawk or the USS John F kennedy until the QE comes on line. If they can't do that, they can go with the Juan Carlos I LHD or get in on the America class LHA or the Wasp class amphibious assault ship

Why on earth would the UK want to run a Kitty Hawk? I would LOVE to hear your reasoning alongside why the UK should get a LHD if they somehow decide to stop building the QEs for whatever reason (considering it'd be financially insane).

The number it would cost to bring back to service, train the appropriate crew to run (not to mention already needing to recruit thousands more only to lay them off when the QEs come), and actually run the thing would be astronomical!! Not to mention how clapped out most of her gear probably is, or are you proposing the UK footing the bill for a full overhaul? Then when the QEs come in, all that money poured into using a Kitty Hawk would disappear.

The number of times this dead horse has been flogged in regards to a Kitty Hawk means we may need to replace the horse.

 

[swerve]

Ok guys, My thinking was this, if the MOD can't complete the QE in time or it's costing them too much. They can ask the US Navy if they Rent out either the USS Constellation, USS Kitty Hawk or the USS John F kennedy until the QE comes on line. If they can't do that, they can go with the Juan Carlos I LHD or get in on the America class LHA or the Wasp class amphibious assault ship

Have you read any of the replies to your posts? Or are you just trolling? Your behaviour is making me strongly suspect the latter. Your suggestions are getting more and more ridiculous.

If I wasn't already engaged in this farcical discussion I might be putting my moderator hat on about now.

FYI, the answer to something overrunning (which isn't happening, BTW) or costing too much isn't to impose further delays & additional costs, which is what you propose.

 

[StobieWan]

Ok guys, My thinking was this, if the MOD can't complete the QE in time or it's costing them too much. They can ask the US Navy if they Rent out either the USS Constellation, USS Kitty Hawk or the USS John F kennedy until the QE comes on line. If they can't do that, they can go with the Juan Carlos I LHD or get in on the America class LHA or the Wasp class amphibious assault ship

No...stop..make the pain go away...the Kitty Hawk emerges from the depths again, with it's huge crew requirements...

QE - crew, 623 from memory, plus air wing maintainers etc comes to about 800 (again, from memory)

Kitty Hawk, crew, all in, 5400. That's about a quarter of the entire RN onboard one ship.

Do you even *think* before you type ? A Kitty Hawk would soak up the entire RN's running budget for the year.

We've got two perfectly capable carriers on the way, already have a servicable CVS and Ocean in service, could still in extremis pull Ark out of the breakers and totally refit her for less than the cost of one year's normal running for a Kitty...seriously, this has departed the planet sane.

I watched with a certain degree of stunned disbelief as you waged your "National Security Cutter for everything" campaign, and ignored every figure I tossed at you about how much they cost to buy but this is a new height of "lalalala, I'm not listening..."

 

[t68]

Ok guys, My thinking was this, if the MOD can't complete the QE in time or it's costing them too much. They can ask the US Navy if they Rent out either the USS Constellation, USS Kitty Hawk or the USS John F kennedy until the QE comes on line. If they can't do that, they can go with the Juan Carlos I LHD or get in on the America class LHA or the Wasp class amphibious assault ship

It’s already been stated that in this forum and others BAE had the contract lock up tighter than a fish arseh@#e and two will be built and one at least will be in service. .I think Kitty Hawk has just been passed on to just about every navy in the world by now.

I would not get your hopes up too much about getting an in service gator from the USN, so far there has only been 3 Juan Carlos type ships ordered and 2 of them are incomplete at this time and both should be service in the RAN around 2016 and are desperately needed. The America class is also being built as we speak and is set to replace the USS Peleliu (LHA 5). With the UK having sold off its stocks of STOVL aircraft the RN doesn’t need another helicopter carrier they need a lean manned aircraft carrier which they are building and aircraft to match which they are purchasing (hopefully in numbers).

 

[Bonza]

Ok guys, My thinking was this, if the MOD can't complete the QE in time or it's costing them too much. They can ask the US Navy if they Rent out either the USS Constellation, USS Kitty Hawk or the USS John F kennedy until the QE comes on line. If they can't do that, they can go with the Juan Carlos I LHD or get in on the America class LHA or the Wasp class amphibious assault ship

For the second time since you started posting here, I'm going to ask you to think before you post, read the responses you get instead of auto-cuing your own, to do some more research and to inject some reality into what you post. The suggestion that the Kitty Hawk is even feasible for such a duty is such utter nonsense that, like Swerve, I have trouble believing that you're seeking to add anything to the discussion other than using the forum as a soapbox for your own ranting.

Shape up, or ship out.