Russian Helicopter Sales to Syria

[sgtgunn]

The US State Department is accusing Russia of preparing to sell/ship attack helos to Syria. Russia denies it. A google search only comes up with the recent news about Sec. Clinton's accusation and Russians denial. Does anyone know anything more about the alleged sale/transfer?

Adrian

 

[2007yellow430]

The Russians are accusing the US of funding the rebels, stating that what they are doing is lawful, etc. I suspect this is going to end up with a renewed cold war attitude. From what I have heard they are very upset over LIbya, where they voted for a no-fly zone, and got a full blown war with NATO on one side and Libya's government on the other.

 

[PhysicsMan]

The US State Department is accusing Russia of preparing to sell/ship attack helos to Syria. Russia denies it. A google search only comes up with the recent news about Sec. Clinton's accusation and Russians denial. Does anyone know anything more about the alleged sale/transfer?

Adrian

Officially, Russia has not supplied Syria with new attack helicopters for more than 20 years. Most likely, if anything, they are repairing the existing Syrian Mi24s, maybe sending spare parts shipments.

 

[Feanor]

Officially, Russia has not supplied Syria with new attack helicopters for more than 20 years. Most likely, if anything, they are repairing the existing Syrian Mi24s, maybe sending spare parts shipments.

This. Also the Syrians like keeping their purchases on the down low. So it would theoretically be possible that they ordered some Mi-35Ms, or Mi-17s. What you have to keep in mind is that the timeframe for such orders would mean that negotiations, and likely the contract itself, would have to have come before their civil war. I suppose it's possible they ordered a handful of used refurbished from VVS stock, but it wouldn't be in line with their general acquisition policy. Since this conflict started they've taken deliveries of Buk-M2Es, Pantsyr-S1Es, Bastion-Ps, MiG-29Ms, and have signed a Yak-130 contract. If they were prepping for COIN ops they'd be buying up light armor, tanks, comm gear, etc.

 

[sgtgunn]

Since this conflict started they've taken deliveries of Buk-M2Es, Pantsyr-S1Es, Bastion-Ps, MiG-29Ms, and have signed a Yak-130 contract. If they were prepping for COIN ops they'd be buying up light armor, tanks, comm gear, etc.

Those recent deliveries might come in handy if there is any attempt at a Libya-type air campaign against the Syrian regime by EU/NATO forces.

Not that it would really matter in the end in that scenario - though perhaps from a Russian perspective it would be a good test of that equipments capabilities....

Adrian

 

[T.C.P]

This. Also the Syrians like keeping their purchases on the down low. So it would theoretically be possible that they ordered some Mi-35Ms, or Mi-17s. What you have to keep in mind is that the timeframe for such orders would mean that negotiations, and likely the contract itself, would have to have come before their civil war. I suppose it's possible they ordered a handful of used refurbished from VVS stock, but it wouldn't be in line with their general acquisition policy. Since this conflict started they've taken deliveries of Buk-M2Es, Pantsyr-S1Es, Bastion-Ps, MiG-29Ms, and have signed a Yak-130 contract. If they were prepping for COIN ops they'd be buying up light armor, tanks, comm gear, etc.

How many Mig-29Ms have they received as of yet??

 

[Feanor]

How many Mig-29Ms have they received as of yet??

Possibly 2. It's not 100% clear that they have been delivered, but I've heard mention that the first 2 were handed over, and these appeared shortly after the images of the MiG-29M for Syria were shown in flight.

 

[Feanor]

Those recent deliveries might come in handy if there is any attempt at a Libya-type air campaign against the Syrian regime by EU/NATO forces.

That's silly. The best way to prevent that campaign is by crushing the rebellion as quickly and decisively as possible. To that end they should be buying up modern personal tactical gear, and modern light armor by the bucket. If they were taking deliveries of hundreds of Tigr-M armored cars, then I'd say that they're re-arming for this conflict.

Anyways, most of the contracts in question were signed and deliveries began before this conflict. So while yes in terms of strategic planning you're right, they want to make themselves a harder target for a conventional campaign by a western military, the point is that it doesn't seem like they're particularly reliant on importing weapons to fight their current civil war. Their existing stock of Soviet-era vehicles and gear seems to be sufficient.

 

[BDRebel]

That's silly. The best way to prevent that campaign is by crushing the rebellion as quickly and decisively as possible. To that end they should be buying up modern personal tactical gear, and modern light armor by the bucket. If they were taking deliveries of hundreds of Tigr-M armored cars, then I'd say that they're re-arming for this conflict.

Anyways, most of the contracts in question were signed and deliveries began before this conflict. So while yes in terms of strategic planning you're right, they want to make themselves a harder target for a conventional campaign by a western military, the point is that it doesn't seem like they're particularly reliant on importing weapons to fight their current civil war. Their existing stock of Soviet-era vehicles and gear seems to be sufficient.

No I am afraid their current supplies are not enough. Not even a modern upgrade to the whole armed forces would be enough because my people's revolution will be successful. Too many lives have already been lost and none of our heroes will back down anymore. The opposition cannot be crushed because the rebels are Syrian army defectors and they know the land. They know where to hide and when to attack. The locals are behind them too. The regime is butchering down civilians not rebels.

 

[spikehades]

The rebels have been conducting acts of terrorism and its not clear that they have popular support. Much of the rebellion is al qaeda sponsored, and has been supported by out side parties. The Syrian government is well within its rights to use limited force to protect its people.
Syria should request as many APCs, surveillance equipment and short range accurate artillery as possible. It is important that the rebellion is crushed ASAP or the very sovereignty of Syria is at stake.

 

[Feanor]

By the way, in case anyone cares, the helos were a handful of Mi-25s (the export variant of the Mi-24D iirc) that were being overhauled in Russia.

 

[BDRebel]

The rebels have been conducting acts of terrorism and its not clear that they have popular support. Much of the rebellion is al qaeda sponsored, and has been supported by out side parties. The Syrian government is well within its rights to use limited force to protect its people.
Syria should request as many APCs, surveillance equipment and short range accurate artillery as possible. It is important that the rebellion is crushed ASAP or the very sovereignty of Syria is at stake.

The rebels have not been conducting acts of terrorism, whereas this is true for the regime. The rebels are also not Qaeda sponsored but rather consists of local volunteers and army defectors. It IS supported by the people and backed by some outside governments as well as Syrian businessmen based outside Syria. They are the ones protecting the people while the regime is brutally exterminating the people village by village. And if protecting the people includes brutally shelling towns and restricting provisions from entering them, then we don't want protection. Crushing the rebellion means crushing the people not crushing a terrorist organization because this is the people's revolution, not some coup by some militants.

Do not post if you're not positive about what you said. I have been living here for 8 years now and have been here through the entire conflict. What you said makes no sense. I know the facts, I know the what is really going on. As we say in Syria, "ask someone who has experienced it, not a wiseman"

 

[GeorgeCarlinFan]

apparently the Syrians are killing civilians for no good reason. Civillians provide all of the labour, tax revenue etc etc. This is really dumb and i don't think that it is entirely true. Why would they kill civillians when they have nothing to gain from doing so?

am I missing something ?

 

[BDRebel]

apparently the Syrians are killing civilians for no good reason. Civillians provide all of the labour, tax revenue etc etc. This is really dumb and i don't think that it is entirely true. Why would they kill civillians when they have nothing to gain from doing so?

am I missing something ?

Yes you are missing something. First of all, the regime is killing civilians. You should probably know that the regime here consists of a ruthless dictator who rules the whole country along with his family and some close close relatives. It is a kind of mafia if I may say.

The civilians being killed are protesters. They no longer want oppression, injustice and poverty. They want freedom and democracy. As always, no dictator is willing to back down from the throne, so he goes on a killing spree. He begins killing those who go to protests or detains them. The government we have here is not like any other. Personal gain is what he wants most, not the wellbeing of his country. This regime is not a patriotic one.

They do not kill civilians for no reason. They do so to strike fear into the hearts of the people and to extinguish the revolution.

 

[2007yellow430]

Yes you are missing something. First of all, the regime is killing civilians. You should probably know that the regime here consists of a ruthless dictator who rules the whole country along with his family and some close close relatives. It is a kind of mafia if I may say.

The civilians being killed are protesters. They no longer want oppression, injustice and poverty. They want freedom and democracy. As always, no dictator is willing to back down from the throne, so he goes on a killing spree. He begins killing those who go to protests or detains them. The government we have here is not like any other. Personal gain is what he wants most, not the wellbeing of his country. This regime is not a patriotic one.

They do not kill civilians for no reason. They do so to strike fear into the hearts of the people and to extinguish the revolution.

I don't understand your last sentence in the second to last paragraph. What do you mean by "This regime is not a patriotic one." That sounds like pure propaganda. Their goals may be different than yours, but I am sure that they believe, rightly or wrongly that they are doing what is best for their country.

If people are peacefully protesting that is one thing. If on the other than they are using force, weapons, etc., then I suspect they would no longer be classified as "civilians" but rather as combatants. I don't know what is going on there, but do know that several other nations are providing money, arms, and other assistance to those rebelling. Frankly, that makes the entire revolution suspect.

Art

 

[BDRebel]

I don't understand your last sentence in the second to last paragraph. What do you mean by "This regime is not a patriotic one." That sounds like pure propaganda. Their goals may be different than yours, but I am sure that they believe, rightly or wrongly that they are doing what is best for their country.

If people are peacefully protesting that is one thing. If on the other than they are using force, weapons, etc., then I suspect they would no longer be classified as "civilians" but rather as combatants. I don't know what is going on there, but do know that several other nations are providing money, arms, and other assistance to those rebelling. Frankly, that makes the entire revolution suspect.

Art

What I mean by this sentence is that the primary goals of the regime is not benefitting the country but to benefit itself. Take for example funds. Instead of investing in some public projects such as hospitals, schools, and other projects, the regime would probably hand over the whole budget to the military or some corrupt family relative. Their intent is not on improving the country but rather to keep themselves at the head of state. I'd expect you to know this already since we are talking about a dictator who recieved presidency from his father and will probably give it to his son if the conditions were viable.

To respond to your second paragraph, I will say the protests throughout the entire first stages of the revolution were peaceful. They used to protest in the streets calling out for reforms and freedom. But the regime began sending its militia to deal with them. Some were killed, or detained. After so many deaths and with the silence of the international community, the soldiers who were being ordered to shoot at their own people slowly began defecting. Some were killed during the process while others succeeded. Even with the defection of those soldiers, the protests remained peaceful. But then arrives a period where the killing is no longer bearable. At this stage, the defectors started protecting the protests which were and still are peaceful.

Now, after the many many massacres and the shelling of residential areas and the detainment of thousands. These defectors formed an army called the FSA whose sole function is to protect the people and ensure what they want occurs, which is the downfall of the regime. So now, the FSA is using force to liberate some areas from the regime's control as they still are not capable of a full fledged war on the regime. But once again, I repeat that those killed by the regime are unarmed, peaceful civilians no combatants. If the regime truly cared about its people, then it wouldn't have shelled residential areas, nor would it arrest and kill civilians, but would rather step down from presidency and hand over the government to a transitional council in a peaceful manner. Believe me everything I tell you is true. Look at my location. I live there. We sleep to the sound of artillery in the Damascus suburbs. :daz

 

[spikehades]

What I mean by this sentence is that the primary goals of the regime is not benefitting the country but to benefit itself. Take for example funds. Instead of investing in some public projects such as hospitals, schools, and other projects, the regime would probably hand over the whole budget to the military or some corrupt family relative. Their intent is not on improving the country but rather to keep themselves at the head of state. I'd expect you to know this already since we are talking about a dictator who recieved presidency from his father and will probably give it to his son if the conditions were viable.

To respond to your second paragraph, I will say the protests throughout the entire first stages of the revolution were peaceful. They used to protest in the streets calling out for reforms and freedom. But the regime began sending its militia to deal with them. Some were killed, or detained. After so many deaths and with the silence of the international community, the soldiers who were being ordered to shoot at their own people slowly began defecting. Some were killed during the process while others succeeded. Even with the defection of those soldiers, the protests remained peaceful. But then arrives a period where the killing is no longer bearable. At this stage, the defectors started protecting the protests which were and still are peaceful.

Now, after the many many massacres and the shelling of residential areas and the detainment of thousands. These defectors formed an army called the FSA whose sole function is to protect the people and ensure what they want occurs, which is the downfall of the regime. So now, the FSA is using force to liberate some areas from the regime's control as they still are not capable of a full fledged war on the regime. But once again, I repeat that those killed by the regime are unarmed, peaceful civilians no combatants. If the regime truly cared about its people, then it wouldn't have shelled residential areas, nor would it arrest and kill civilians, but would rather step down from presidency and hand over the government to a transitional council in a peaceful manner. Believe me everything I tell you is true. Look at my location. I live there. We sleep to the sound of artillery in the Damascus suburbs. :daz

It seems to me that the FSA are not liberating anything. They move into an area, disrupt the local economy and community, kill a few so called "government loyalists" and then leave the entire area in ruins after the government is then forced to restore security to the area.
To say that there is no al-qaeda affiliates amongst the ranks of the disparate FSA is either naive or ignorant. And when ASSAD goes, who is going to fill the vacuum? Peaceful Democrats or the thugs with the guns?
One of the major reasons for disproportionate levels of military expenditure in Syria is related to the obvious Israel/territorial issues, the Kurdish separatists, Sunni extremists and having a large border with many potentially hostile foes. The lack of a security understanding with the West/NATO may have something to do with it too.
Expensive military systems are not required to suppress a population.

 

[BDRebel]

It seems to me that the FSA are not liberating anything. They move into an area, disrupt the local economy and community, kill a few so called "government loyalists" and then leave the entire area in ruins after the government is then forced to restore security to the area.
To say that there is no al-qaeda affiliates amongst the ranks of the disparate FSA is either naive or ignorant. And when ASSAD goes, who is going to fill the vacuum? Peaceful Democrats or the thugs with the guns?
One of the major reasons for disproportionate levels of military expenditure in Syria is related to the obvious Israel/territorial issues, the Kurdish separatists, Sunni extremists and having a large border with many potentially hostile foes. The lack of a security understanding with the West/NATO may have something to do with it too.
Expensive military systems are not required to suppress a population.

Before I reply again, I must know whether you really do understand whats going on in Syria or just get your knowledge from TV and other media? Because no offence but claiming that the FSA disrupt an area which in fact, already had its economy and community humbled is rather untrue, because the moment the regime militiamen enter the town probably because they had a protest there, expect havoc.
I am indeed saying there are no Qaeda members in the FSA, but I did not say there is no Qaeda in general. There may be, probably be, many Qaeda militants in Syria but they are in no way part of the FSA, but rather independent squadrons. While you think the FSA are thugs with guns, believe me thousands of Syrians consider them heroes who have saved their families from possible massacres. You see once the regime militiamen know that they are in danger from the FSA, then they will become afraid, especially with the guerilla tactics of the FSA. So instead of sending in infantry to slaughter, they start shelling the towns.
As for our hostile neighbors, I have a question for you. Do you know how many Israeli soldiers (our biggest enemy) have been killed by the Syrian army? Once you know the answer, compare the stats to the number of casualties of the Hama massaacre in 1980s and of this conflict today and you will see that the real thug with a gun is the regime.

 

[MrWhite09]

By the way, in case anyone cares, the helos were a handful of Mi-25s (the export variant of the Mi-24D iirc) that were being overhauled in Russia.

So these were existing Syrian helicopters not brand new ones?

On the news when Hillary Clinton first made mention of these helicopters they mentioned that Syria already had armed helicopters but from the video clips they had it appeared they were armed Mi-8/Mi-17, not Mi-35s. Do Syria have more Mi-35s than those on the ship?

 

[spikehades]

So the so called "FSA" has attacked a civilian television center killing 7 unarmed employees. Whoever thought that being a tv producer or a key grip/tea boy/janitor/accounts clerk would be such a dangerous job.
They're not thugs with guns at all are they?