Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Trackmaster]

There is a letter in The Australian this morning claiming the issue with the Choules revolves around the heat exchangers.
Supposedly great for cold water climes....not so flash in tropical waters.
Is there any truth in this, and if so, what would be the fix time?

 

[t68]

I wonder if the problem with HMAS Choules has any thing to do with the ex Chief Engineers supersession report at the time, that there were known concerns the transformers would overheat in warmer climates and not able to maintain full speed, could it be the RAN are pushing Choules too hard in warmer waters, if they are having problems in the winter how will she go in the summer in the tropics. I do recall that the UK modified the Bay class in some way in the UK and Choules has not had those modifications would those changes affected to the UK ships help the RAN?

http://www.ran-skilledhands.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10021/Largs_Bay.pdf

HMAS tagged 'Lemon Scented' | thetelegraph.com.au

 

[Trackmaster]

Thanks t68.
I hadn't seen the McPhedran article.
Do I hear the sound of chickens heading home to roost?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Stuff like this breaks down on ships. The problem is there are no spare parts. This is what happens when you buy something from overseas and haven't introduced a support chain. If this had happened to an Anzac class it would be bad part out new part in and would hardly raise a ripple.

 

[swerve]

I wonder if the problem with HMAS Choules has any thing to do with the ex Chief Engineers supersession report at the time, that there were known concerns the transformers would overheat in warmer climates and not able to maintain full speed, could it be the RAN are pushing Choules too hard in warmer waters, if they are having problems in the winter how will she go in the summer in the tropics. I do recall that the UK modified the Bay class in some way in the UK and Choules has not had those modifications would those changes affected to the UK ships help the RAN?

http://www.ran-skilledhands.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10021/Largs_Bay.pdf

HMAS tagged 'Lemon Scented' | thetelegraph.com.au

The RN has operated the Bays in the Persian Gulf, the Caribbean, & Gulf of Aden, IIRC - including summer.

 

[t68]

Quote from the Adelaide paper,
The navy said it had been advised by the ship's previous operator, the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, that the defect was "very unusual".

Navy's newest ship HMAS Choules 'breaks down' | adelaidenow

I really don’t know if this is true or not but the Australian is reporting that Choules could be out service for between 6 to 12 months, not a good look for Navy so soon after the K and M fiasco. I have no naval background so I have no way of knowing if the Australian is correct, but this document from naval engineer gives an insight into Wartsila electric propulsion systems, once again I am not sure if it is the same thing on Choules.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

https://www.navalengineers.org/Site...dings Documents/ESDS 2009/Papers/NordtunT.pdf

Is anyone able to give a realistic time it would take to change out a transformer?

 

[Anixtu]

I do recall that the UK modified the Bay class in some way in the UK and Choules has not had those modifications would those changes affected to the UK ships help the RAN?

I thought the tropicalisation package was part of the refit at Falmouth prior to handover?

As Swerve points out, tropicalised Bays have operated in the northern Persian Gulf in summer. Do Australian waters get warmer than that?

 

[t68]

I thought the tropicalisation package was part of the refit at Falmouth prior to handover?

As Swerve points out, tropicalised Bays have operated in the northern Persian Gulf in summer. Do Australian waters get warmer than that?

A&P Group celebrates the end of RFA Largs Bay re-fit | A&P Group

Well according to this press release the main propulsion was recently overhauled when in refit ready for transfer to the RAN, ship refitted after Choules had modifications to the exhaust if that helps elevate cooling problems identified in the report I don’t know.

£12m refit for RFA Mounts Bay at Falmouth (From Falmouth Packet)

No idea about water temps if they are higher or lower in the areas Swerve pointed out.

 

[Anixtu]

Well according to this press release the main propulsion was recently overhauled when in refit ready for transfer to the RAN, ship refitted after Choules had modifications to the exhaust if that helps elevate cooling problems identified in the report I don’t know.

Various 5-year cycle maintenance work would have been due anyway, and the listed work reflects that.

"Upgrading the tropical cooling system" presumably means something similar to that fitted to Cardigan Bay and Lyme Bay for Persian Gulf operations. Unconnected to the exhaust modifications which relate to the exhaust cooling system rather than propulsion equipment/machinery cooling. Australia evidently chose not to fit the same exhaust modifications to Largs as had already been applied to Mounts and subsequently applied to Cardigan.

 

[swerve]

No idea about water temps if they are higher or lower in the areas Swerve pointed out.

The Persian Gulf in summer has the highest surface water temperatures in the world. Only the Red Sea is close. It's shallow, enclosed, & air temperatures in the surrounding land routinely exceed 40C in summer. It's 39C in Basra now (evening - it's cooled down from a peak of 45C), & forecast to be about the same for the next few days, with daily peaks of 43C to 47C. It hit 42C in Abu Dhabi, 47C in Dhahran, 43C in Doha, & 40C in Dubai & Bandar Abbas today. This is normal.

Nowhere around the coasts of Australia regularly matches the normal air & sea temperatures there.

 

[t68]

A brief history on RFA Largs Bay/HMAS Choules it seems along with RFA Lyme Bay Swan Hunter did not have the best of QA both Largs and Lyme bay had problems with there propulsion systems whilst on trial which is not to unusual, but Largs Bay suffered an engine room fire back in 2007 not sure if these contribute to Choules problems today. Ships built by BAE at the Govan yard seem to have a trouble free existence

RFA Largs Bay
RFA Lyme Bay
RFA Cardigan Bay
RFA Mounts Bay

 

[ASSAIL]

I think pointless speculation on what may or may not be systemic problems with a ship that has;
a) A proven design but new to the RAN engineers,
b) Was modified for tropical service,
c) Has sister ships operating trouble free in the Gulf,

This naysaying is nonsense.

Wait for a response from someone who knows.

Ships have occaisional defects and need stores to rectify them.
If these are not "in country" they stay broken until spares arrive.

 

[ASSAIL]

Ambient summer seawater temperatures around the Australian coast north of Capricorn are a steady 32 deg C occaisionally peaking 2 or 3 degs above that.

I was a pearl farmer for 30 years and lived by seawater temps!

 

[Anixtu]

...but Largs Bay suffered an engine room fire back in 2007 not sure if these contribute to Choules problems today.

Specifically a fire in the port propulsion transformer compartment.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Specifically a fire in the port propulsion transformer compartment.

The word on the street is it is a transformer that has broken down but it is extremely unlikely that any damage from a fire five years ago has anything to do with it. Rather that in an electrically powered ship the transformers are items under a lot of stress and subject to failure. The real problem is there are no spare transformers on hand. Once again the Navy is in trouble because the Government has not provided adequate funding for sustainment.

 

[Anixtu]

The real problem is there are no spare transformers on hand. Once again the Navy is in trouble because the Government has not provided adequate funding for sustainment.

I doubt the RFA keeps any spare transformers on the books either, with 3 or 4 ships of the class in service. A propulsion transformer is a big bit of kit. Where do you draw the line with spares, especially for a one-off vessel? Spare generators (one of each type)? Spare thruster units? Spare converters?

 

[old faithful]

Ambient summer seawater temperatures around the Australian coast north of Capricorn are a steady 32 deg C occaisionally peaking 2 or 3 degs above that.

I was a pearl farmer for 30 years and lived by seawater temps!

Start checking the cyclone moorings when the water temp peaked those extra few deg? me, Raffles, Osbourne isls, Port Bremer

 

[ASSAIL]

Start checking the cyclone moorings when the water temp peaked those extra few deg? me, Raffles, Osbourne isls, Port Bremer

Was Pas GM 81 - 96, Kailis GM until 03 and Arafura consultant til 10
Cheers

 

[MickB]

With Australia partly funding the adoption of NSM anti shipping/ land attack missile for the JSF. It follows that it would also be fitted to any future MPA such as the P8.

Could it also be a Harpoon replacement ( perhaps a VLS version) on the AWD and Anzac II.

 

[Vanguard]

I doubt we will see a real decision until the Anzac II program starts to kick off by which time we should be able to get an idea of the adoption of the JSM, LRASM and any others that arrive on the market.