The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[kev 99]

Anyone have opinions on this concept note, published on the MOD website on 4th May on the "Future Black Swan Class Sloop of War"?

Joint Concept Note 1/12: Future 'Black Swan' Class Sloop-of-War: A Group System

A core crew of 8, supplemented by the mission specific crew that accompany the mission packages.

Interesting note in their about accommodation standards. There appears to be a feeling that with the Type 45 the RN has gone too far (e.g. submarine sized cabins for COs)

WillS

Will.

Overall I like it, I would definitely avoid the temptation of putting a medium Claibe Gun on it though and I don't see the inclusion of a Chinook capable flight deck as gold plating, merely catering to the needs of the MOD's helicopter fleet (Chinook being the most numerous).

Of course something like this would necessitate lots of investment in unmanned systems to complement it, no point in buying lots of these if you don't spend the money on the bits that make the concept after all.

 

[1805]

...Silly Question....

But, WHICH shipyard in the North East ?

A&P Tyne is a Repair / refit yard (all quay wall berths IIRC).

Swan Hunter has been stripped of most of it's sale-able components, after being closed in 2006.


So where would you suggest ?


Rosyth ??? (It's in the NORTH East)

Harland & Wolf?? (If there's anything of it that hasn't been hived off for housing left?)

Cammel Lairds ?? (As it's either on the brink between being shut again, or being re-opened ??)

....I CERTAINLY wouldn't recommend Portsmouth, that's for sure !

SA

There is a reason why most companies UK companies want out of ship building, it's the ups and downs of the order cycle. At the core of the failure of the so called industrial strategy around the T45 &CVF/ACA, was that it ducked some painful issues (investment/closures) and was just short term rationing based almost solely on RN work. A&P would to me seem a good bet, and if the Government made it clear there would be regular work over the long term; which is could easily do under this sort of model.

The key is to use RN work to create the initial case for investment (this is a good spot for the RN to be seen to be in, when the goverment is desparate for growth), which then can leads to export orders. This OPV/commercially built warship is about the right size for this, larger ships and there is more of a focus on local build.

.

 

[1805]

Hmm...interesting, had another read through of the pre-amble and it looks like they're planning on treating these like plug and play solutions to a fair few war-like tasks.

I'm not convinced you can get that result out of a hull that cheap - and the speed thing would be a bind. I dunno, I suppose ASW has moved on a bit and it's more about the platforms you can launch than the hull. I shall peruse further..

How important is speed in the ASW environment, once the principle means of attack moved from ship mounted weapons (Limbo etc.) to their helicopter(s)? There is an irony that almost as soon as the RN abandoned the Type 41/61 platform, for really a retrograde step to the steam turbine powered Type 12/Leander, to get an extra 3 knots, speed became irrelevant with the arrival of MATCH/Wasp.

The real issue is trade protection vs. fleet escort. the need for speed is to keep up with carriers/naval partners etc. I actually think 18 knots for the savings involve is on the slow side and would prefer 24 knots as it would help with fleet work. But the thrust of what this paper says, is what a number of people have been saying on here for some time, numbers do count. Some of the other areas mentioned are actually not radical at all, it's fairly proven; StanFlex in particular, and certainly the way Phalanx is increasingly being deployed, even modern VLS systems.

It does say, it's not about a hi/lo mix, but I think this would also be a benefit, in the partol space. The current ideas around the Type 26, do not look much of an improvement over the Type 23. I would rather see less hulls but a far more capable ships c8,000-10,000, as flagships for small squadrons (say on 1-2 or 3 ratio), capable of operating sizable USVs.

A lot will depend on where the unmanned revolution goes, and the RN should be one of the leaders in this area; it has the potential to be a massive force multiplier, whilst reducing costs. For a helicopter based solution maybe something nearer MATCH/DASH, 2,000kg max take off weight, payloads like: 1-2 torpedoes, LMMs, sonarbuoys, or surveillance. For surface based craft, maybe something based around say Stiletto M80, this is currently configure to more special force, but for ASWit could do very long patrols often just drifting, to be liberated form having to provide facilities for crew and the increased payload for both sensors and weaponry (maybe spearfish torpedoes) over helicopters.

 

[the concerned]

Is there someone with a more experienced knowledege of Uav operations on here .What i would like to know is the way that uav's are opeated from the ground could you not operate the work station's from a (aew&c or mpa) the same way.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Is there someone with a more experienced knowledege of Uav operations on here .What i would like to know is the way that uav's are opeated from the ground could you not operate the work station's from a (aew&c or mpa) the same way.

thats not the case though.

bear in mind that control is something that can be handed off, the only difference is the bearers - not the size of the control station.

all the work on managing hives is actually about being managed from other air assets - not from ground stations

a colocated air based hive manager has a "different" type of situational appreciation and awareness.

 

[WillS]

One more thing I forgot to mention I think. At the same event where I heard about the Black Swan, a person with inside knowledge of the defence budget said a couple of things re the budget and the Navy:

1. That projects which have yet to be allocated a firm line item in the budget (& therefore not announced as a "go") amount to about 7.5% of total forecast equipment spend over the next 10 years. This isn't to say that they haven't been planned for, just not officially adopted as the costs aren't yet clear or they haven't been prioritised. I wonder if CEC is part of this?

2. That 40% of the equipment budget for the next 10 years has been allocated to RN spend, which isn't surprising given the carriers, type 26s, astutes, etc.

Chatham House rules at the event so can't say who it was. But he knew what he was talking about.

WillS.

 

[RobWilliams]

1. That projects which have yet to be allocated a firm line item in the budget (& therefore not announced as a "go") amount to about 7.5% of total forecast equipment spend over the next 10 years. This isn't to say that they haven't been planned for, just not officially adopted as the costs aren't yet clear or they haven't been prioritised. I wonder if CEC is part of this?

I hate to dig up CEC again, but I REALLY hope they put them in the T26s.

Missing them off the T45s I can understand as they would get naff all use, but any more than that and I don't really see much justification.

 

[ASSAIL]

I hate to dig up CEC again, but I REALLY hope they put them in the T26s.

Missing them off the T45s I can understand as they would get naff all use, but any more than that and I don't really see much justification.

I can't disagree more strongly. The lack of CEC on the T45's neuters these capable ships to the role of minor escort.

Other RN units may not have CEC fitted (yet) but aren't you part of NATO? I assume that the RN still is a major player so why not provide a force enhancer in the way that lesser navies (Armada) are already doing?

CEC may not go bang but it is light years ahead of links 11 & 16.

I would have given my left leg to have been able to use such a force multiplier in my time.

Cheers

 

[RobWilliams]

I can't disagree more strongly. The lack of CEC on the T45's neuters these capable ships to the role of minor escort.

Other RN units may not have CEC fitted (yet) but aren't you part of NATO? I assume that the RN still is a major player so why not provide a force enhancer in the way that lesser navies (Armada) are already doing?

CEC may not go bang but it is light years ahead of links 11 & 16.

I would have given my left leg to have been able to use such a force multiplier in my time.

Cheers

I wouldn't bring in CEC until there are a wider number of vessels to make use of it, what would be the point for 6 T45s being the only ships in the RN having this as the T23s sure as hell wouldn't get it? Then the likelyhood of any of them being deployed together until the T26 comes in is very minimal.

My understanding of it is other ships (like T26) would benefit more from CEC on T45 than T45s would.

 

[StobieWan]

I wouldn't bring in CEC until there are a wider number of vessels to make use of it, what would be the point for 6 T45s being the only ships in the RN having this as the T23s sure as hell wouldn't get it? Then the likelyhood of any of them being deployed together until the T26 comes in is very minimal.

My understanding of it is other ships (like T26) would benefit more from CEC on T45 than T45s would.

Nah - Type 45 with CEC would be very useful in plugging into international formations - and in any occasion a pair of them were working together, CEC would be massively useful. Besides, organisationally, if we get CEC into Type 45 asap, that gives us practical experience of using it both in national and international formations.

There are plenty of smaller navies who either have it or plan to have it for smaller amounts of ships (Australia are fitting CEC to the Hobarts for instance)

 

[Volkodav]

I wouldn't bring in CEC until there are a wider number of vessels to make use of it, what would be the point for 6 T45s being the only ships in the RN having this as the T23s sure as hell wouldn't get it? Then the likelyhood of any of them being deployed together until the T26 comes in is very minimal.

My understanding of it is other ships (like T26) would benefit more from CEC on T45 than T45s would.

My understanding is the RAAFs Wedgetail AEWs will also have CEC, so extrapolate that the the RAF Sentrys. In fact does anyone know if there are any plans to fit CEC to the USAF or NATO E-3s?

 

[ASSAIL]

I wouldn't bring in CEC until there are a wider number of vessels to make use of it, what would be the point for 6 T45s being the only ships in the RN having this as the T23s sure as hell wouldn't get it? Then the likelyhood of any of them being deployed together until the T26 comes in is very minimal.

My understanding of it is other ships (like T26) would benefit more from CEC on T45 than T45s would.

Rob, you have missed my point. The RN currently conducts joint ops with CEC capable platforms. Platform systems are able to seamlessly talk to each thru CEC. This is not an RN centric capability and by not fitting it now the RN's most capable platforms cannot fully contribute. The RN is not stand alone anymore, its a contributor like all the rest of us (except the US).

In the immediate future think Syria, in the immediate past think Libya. Think of the benefits for C4 in these situations and anyone who thinks Link 16 will do is dreaming

 

[StobieWan]

From the DMC newsfeed today, a short piece on the deployment of a pair of minehunters to the Gulf.


Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Military Operations | Navy minehunters sail for Gulf


They'll be relieving a pair of ships in place, and will be deployed for something like three years, using crews flown in regularly.

 

[RobWilliams]

Rob, you have missed my point. The RN currently conducts joint ops with CEC capable platforms. Platform systems are able to seamlessly talk to each thru CEC. This is not an RN centric capability and by not fitting it now the RN's most capable platforms cannot fully contribute. The RN is not stand alone anymore, its a contributor like all the rest of us (except the US).

In the immediate future think Syria, in the immediate past think Libya. Think of the benefits for C4 in these situations and anyone who thinks Link 16 will do is dreaming

Fair enough, I'm man enough to know when i'm beaten

But FWIW, I can understand why they did miss it off as at that time, wasn't the 'black hole' still an issue at the time?

Gotta add in too, i'm not saying they shouldn't get it. But I remember (and i have absolutely nothing to back this up with so i mainly expect this to be false) someone talking about HMS Daring should be having a refit in what, 2015? Then as the final decision on CEC being made in 2014 (again, another bit of questionable info) so then they could be fitted when possible?

 

[ASSAIL]

Gotta add in too, i'm not saying they shouldn't get it. But I remember (and i have absolutely nothing to back this up with so i mainly expect this to be false) someone talking about HMS Daring should be having a refit in what, 2015? Then as the final decision on CEC being made in 2014 (again, another bit of questionable info) so then they could be fitted when possible

?[/QUOTE]

Have a squizz at the link. Interestingly, it considers the T45 fitting as a fait accompli.http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/cec-coooperative-engagement-for-fl

Cheers

The link works if you google but not auto??? needs CEC!

 

[StobieWan]

Have a squizz at the link. Interestingly, it considers the T45 fitting as a fait accompli.http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/cec-coooperative-engagement-for-fl

Cheers

The link works if you google but not auto??? needs CEC!

This link? Just trying this now...

CEC: Cooperative Engagement for Fleet Defense

 

[1805]

One more thing I forgot to mention I think. At the same event where I heard about the Black Swan, a person with inside knowledge of the defence budget said a couple of things re the budget and the Navy:

1. That projects which have yet to be allocated a firm line item in the budget (& therefore not announced as a "go") amount to about 7.5% of total forecast equipment spend over the next 10 years. This isn't to say that they haven't been planned for, just not officially adopted as the costs aren't yet clear or they haven't been prioritised. I wonder if CEC is part of this?

2. That 40% of the equipment budget for the next 10 years has been allocated to RN spend, which isn't surprising given the carriers, type 26s, astutes, etc.

Chatham House rules at the event so can't say who it was. But he knew what he was talking about.

WillS.

I missed this post when off last week. It is really good news that a greater degree of financial control appears to have been established over the MOD budgeting process. Prehaps more important is this points to a much more positive future; I am sure there will still be problem projects and failures, that is the nature of procuring, maintaining leading edge equipment.

If significant inroads can be made in the amount of money wasted, then funding will become much easier over the next few years and we should see a steady enhancement of capabilities. CEC, P8s and reasonable numbers of F35bs etc.

 

[ASSAIL]

Diamond Jubilee

What a great four days of celebration. Diddn't matter whether or not one was a republican or an ardent monachist, the event marked a lifetime of service for a wonderful lady and brought people together in a way that a politician could only ever dream of.

But, dear oh dear, didn't it cry out for a significant Naval Review. I was lucky to be there in 1977!
The poor old Duke must have been livid.

 

[StobieWan]

What a great four days of celebration. Diddn't matter whether or not one was a republican or an ardent monachist, the event marked a lifetime of service for a wonderful lady and brought people together in a way that a politician could only ever dream of.

But, dear oh dear, didn't it cry out for a significant Naval Review. I was lucky to be there in 1977!
The poor old Duke must have been livid.

Yeah - I must admit, despite a massive attack of bah humbug on my part, I was at a village fete over in Royston on the Sunday night, rain hammering down, folk huddled together under a marquee against the wind (in June...) and everyone stayed right to the end of the gig, we all stood to sing God Save the Queen, and I was overcome by the faintest tinge of national pride. Any country where you have to pack sunscreen, a spare jumper, waterproofs, sunglasses, sandals and wellies just to cover all the basic possibilities for an afternoon..well..

Sadly, a Naval Review would have been utterly impossible - or faintly ridiculous, given it'd have been maybe the FOST ship and a mine hunter. I suppose we could have towed all the type 22 and 42's that are laid up, moored them alongside and pretended maybe ?

Beedall was complaining similarly in his latest update I notice..

 

[RobWilliams]

I was a little miffed at the Swordfish didn't do it's fly-by.

Does anyone have any information regarding what the stats of the F35B might be for the Royal Navy? After all, in USMC service it won't be using a ski-ramp like the RN and from my understanding it improves the effective take off weight for the aircraft?

Or are the numbers being tossed around pretty much it?