Rebuilding a smaller mid sized Navy

I agree with Sea Toby on the OPVs. To go further, if we built a CCG similar to the USCG and gave them 10 or 12 proper OPV with helicopter pads this would reduce the Canadian Navy's need to do coastal patrol. I assume the CCG would need to have some basic weaponry like a 40mm gun maybe a stinger and grenade launcher here or there like the USCG. Side benefit is that the US and Canadian coast guards could work much better as a united front defending the continent.

These new CCG ships could be built to accept additional sensors or armament in case of a large scale war. Maybe a modular system that could allow them to do anti-mine work or even towed sonar to hunt littorals for enemy subs. Lightly armed CCG patrol ships will be cheaper than building naval grade OPV and give us the same sovereignty protection.
So you've given up on the possibility that Canada could contribute in any meaningful way to international maritime operations? Or that Canada will be a useful member of NATO? Or participate in UN sanctioned military operations?
I ask, because you seem eager to gut the RCN (and the other services) of much of its operational capability for EEZ and border protection.

Either you have a CCG for EEZ duties or you have the RCN for EEZ duties. Why duplicate roles? Leave the border protection duties to the CCG, and they don't need the capability to fit sonars or UUVs or 40mm guns (aren't CCG vessels unarmed?). It is wasted money. Leave the war roles to the RCN.

Small flotilla of SSKs would still patrol and help monitor fisheries and EEZ due to cost efficiency and strategic defence. This would leave the surface CN ships to power project around the world.
Pardon?
A fleet of SSKs for EEZ patrol and fishery protection? And when this SSK comes across a Russian trawler illegally fishing in Canadian water, what is is going to do? Fire a torpedo across the bows? Surface and politely ask for them to be "Good chaps" and kindly desist?
A submarine is a very expensive offensive weapon, massively wasted on border protection. Get a patrol boat.

One question, the Halifax class are undergoing refits to take them to 2030 and we are building 15 SCSCS plus 8 APS and 3 JSS. Does this mean a Halifax class will be taken offline as each new SCSCS enters service? Surely we can't be ending up with all those surface vessels.
The SCSCP is planned to have all in service by 2030, with the first in class to be in service in 2016-2017. My personal opinion is that 2016 seems a bit optimistic for a shipbuilding project without a firm (at least public) design or systems chosen.
I don't know whether it will be a Halifax FFH or Iroquois DDG that will be the first to be replaced, but given the age of the DDGs I would bet they would be first even though it would mean that the RCN is without SM-2 capability.
 

Zhaow

New Member
For Canada's future Defense needs, I see them needing the following

2 to 4 JSS type ships such as the San Antonio class LPD, Spanish ship Juan Carlos I or a Mistral class amphibious assault ship, with each on each coast of Canada. It would allow them to carry a battalion with all their support equipment including helio's. They can use it on Humanitarian operations, disaster response and even support the Canadian troops.

As for their destroyers, I can see them being replaced with 2 to 4 of the Álvaro de Bazán class frigate. The reason is because you would want something that has Aegis capability and BMD capability as well.

As for their frigate, I can see them being replaced with either the Fridtjof Nansen class frigate or a a version of France's FREMM frigate design. The reason being is that they need something with littoral capability and to be able to tag along with the US Carrier strike group or to protect their JSS ship.

As for their Submarines, they simply need to kill their SSK program and revamp it. For Canada best interest, Nuclear would be more better than an SSK. Nuclear has the range and endurance under the Ice pack in the North Pole. All the current SSK's in the world would not have the range or the endurance under the Ice pack. Even would not have the ability to punch a hole through the Ice pack You would need a nuclear sub in order to break the Icepack to surface. My suggestion for them, would be to either ask the US Navy if they can get a couple of used 688's or get in on Virgina class SSN program and see if they can procure 4 Virgina class SSN. If they can't get an SSN from America, I would have them go to France get in on the Barracuda class SSN with modifications for under Ice pack operations.

As for patrol force I would have them look at getting a version of the US Coast Guard's National security cutter and or the Fast response cutter. It would be used for Canada's EEZ zone patrol. The best thing for Canada, would be to remake their Canadian Coast Guard look more like the US Coast Guard and their only big gun they can carry on a ship would be up to a 25mm Bushmaster cannon. For the Canadian Coast Guard, it would give them Law Enforcement teeth to enforce Canadian laws.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
As for their destroyers, I can see them being replaced with 2 to 4 of the Álvaro de Bazán class frigate. The reason is because you would want something that has Aegis capability and BMD capability as well.
Canada has no interest in Aegis. They are invested in the excellent APAR system.

As for their frigate, I can see them being replaced with either the Fridtjof Nansen class frigate or a a version of France's FREMM frigate design. The reason being is that they need something with littoral capability and to be able to tag along with the US Carrier strike group or to protect their JSS ship.
The Halifax class are some very nice GP frigates and are being upgraded to be effective out to the 2030's.
 

Future Fleet

New Member
So you've given up on the possibility that Canada could contribute in any meaningful way to international maritime operations? Or that Canada will be a useful member of NATO? Or participate in UN sanctioned military operations?
I ask, because you seem eager to gut the RCN (and the other services) of much of its operational capability for EEZ and border protection.

Either you have a CCG for EEZ duties or you have the RCN for EEZ duties. Why duplicate roles? Leave the border protection duties to the CCG, and they don't need the capability to fit sonars or UUVs or 40mm guns (aren't CCG vessels unarmed?). It is wasted money. Leave the war roles to the RCN.

Pardon?
A fleet of SSKs for EEZ patrol and fishery protection? And when this SSK comes across a Russian trawler illegally fishing in Canadian water, what is is going to do? Fire a torpedo across the bows? Surface and politely ask for them to be "Good chaps" and kindly desist?
A submarine is a very expensive offensive weapon, massively wasted on border protection. Get a patrol boat.

Don't want to duplicate roles. What happens when the navy who patrols EEZ gets mostly called away on foreign assignments? Fewer patrols? That is exactly what is happening now. A CCG boarder protection fleet with a navy that is built for blue water projection overcomes this. BTW, the Canadian Coast Guard's mission is not at all what the USCG missions is. Observe the wording on the CCG website:

Canadians expect the federal government to:

protect the marine environment;
support economic growth;
ensure public safety on the water; and
ensure Canada’s sovereignty and security by establishing a strong federal presence in our waters.

The Canadian Coast Guard helps the government meet the public’s expectation of clean, safe, secure, healthy and productive waters and coastlines.

Notice the wording that leads one to believe they have something to do with sovereignty protection when their real mission follows. Nothing about boarder protection at all. Now consider this quote:

"If a colleague from the US Navy said to me: 'Our Coast Guard watches over the first 200 miles and then the Navy takes over. How does it work in Canada?',
I would have to say: 'I can tell you about the outside 200 miles, but you don't want to hear about the inside 200 miles.'"

– Rear Admiral (Ret'd) Bruce Johnston, former Commander,
Maritime Forces (Pacific) testifying before the Committee.

Lets put in place what most Canadian's think we already have, a CCG that actually does boarder protection just like the USCG. The CCG does some fishery work but that is all. Our Navy should be principally a blue water fleet which is what the SCSC ships are intended to be anyway. I reduced the SCSCS from 15 to 10 to accommodate some extra subs for blue water / eel patrol and more capable CCG fleet.

Supporting fisheries patrols and drug interdiction are some of the missions the Victoria class subs are supposed to do so I'm not sure why a couple of subs on duty per coast is unrealistic to sometimes assist CCG with intelligence gathering while patrolling for naval threats. BTW, the 40mm gun is what then USCG uses.

According to the RCN, subs are 1/3 the cost of a frigate or a destroyer to operate. They are also the best platform for detecting other subs which, IMO from a military standpoint, is what Canada has to focus on from a defence-of-NA perspective. The Germans have a 30mm cannon that fires from a mast even under water in case you want to know how to deal with that pesky Russian trawler but they should have to.

The Navy has responsibilities around the world as many on this blog have pointed out. The Navy's surface ships will be mostly occupied around the world, in training, or in maintenance which is why it is better to have a dedicated CCG to boarder patrol and fishery protection and have a handful of subs for full time coastal defence.

I find it funny that you are ripping on a submarine's percieved inability to stop the Russia trawler except by asking it please because that is exactly what the the CCG does and the new Hero class ships designed for fishery patrol have no armament. The 6 officers on board carry firearms and pepper spray. Not very intimidating either. Maybe all we need to do is mount a pepper spray mast on the sub.........

In WW2 the Germans submarines often captured and boarded individual merchant ships at the start of the war, sinking them with charges. It wasn't until the threat of hidden guns and the convoy system that the subs stayed hidden and launched their torpedoes. To be clear, I am not advocating using subs to board ships for Canada, or even confront them. Armed CCG should do this. If they need a sub to be in the area to collect information while hiding out of sight then that is what they should be used for, otherwise patrolling for naval threats - other nations subs, etc.

You mentioned submarines were an offensive weapon. I agree if we're strictly talking SSNs but SSKs can be great for continental defence too.

Under my plan there is 10 SCSCS plus 2 JSS strictly for international operations. No limiting of Canadian power projection there. The only beef I could see you having is that they are Absalons and maybe they can't be fitted with enough armament to make them up to required standards.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Small flotilla of SSKs would still patrol and help monitor fisheries and EEZ due to cost efficiency and strategic defence.
SSKs? For fisheries & EEZ patrol? Pray tell, how does an SSK monitor the behaviour of & arrest fishing boats, & how is it more cost efficient than an OPV at a fraction of the price, the larger (but still much, much cheaper than a sub!) models of which are able to carry a helicopter?
 

Future Fleet

New Member
As for their Submarines, they simply need to kill their SSK program and revamp it. For Canada best interest, Nuclear would be more better than an SSK. Nuclear has the range and endurance under the Ice pack in the North Pole. All the current SSK's in the world would not have the range or the endurance under the Ice pack. Even would not have the ability to punch a hole through the Ice pack You would need a nuclear sub in order to break the Icepack to surface. My suggestion for them, would be to either ask the US Navy if they can get a couple of used 688's or get in on Virgina class SSN program and see if they can procure 4 Virgina class SSN. If they can't get an SSN from America, I would have them go to France get in on the Barracuda class SSN with modifications for under Ice pack operations.

As for patrol force I would have them look at getting a version of the US Coast Guard's National security cutter and or the Fast response cutter. It would be used for Canada's EEZ zone patrol. The best thing for Canada, would be to remake their Canadian Coast Guard look more like the US Coast Guard and their only big gun they can carry on a ship would be up to a 25mm Bushmaster cannon. For the Canadian Coast Guard, it would give them Law Enforcement teeth to enforce Canadian laws.

I agree on the SSN but I wonder if a Type 216 SSK could break through the ice? They are going to be around 4000 tons.


In agreement too regarding the CCG. Probably 25mm is big enough although some of the USCG Cutters have a 40mm and even 57mm guns but they are probably overkill for Canada's needs.
 
Don't want to duplicate roles. What happens when the navy who patrols EEZ gets mostly called away on foreign assignments? Fewer patrols? That is exactly what is happening now. A CCG boarder protection fleet with a navy that is built for blue water projection overcomes this. BTW, the Canadian Coast Guard's mission is not at all what the USCG missions is. Observe the wording on the CCG website:
<snip>
Notice the wording that leads one to believe they have something to do with sovereignty protection when their real mission follows. Nothing about boarder protection at all.
You are arguing about semantics. By "border protection" I mean low-level civil policing roles - fisheries and EEZ patrol, unauthorised entry into Canadian waters, etc.

As for the RCN being "called away on foreign assignments", you have spent weeks reducing the RCN to a state where it wouldn't be capable of being "called away" to do much of anything. In your current idea of a future RCN, does it now have such an ability?

Supporting fisheries patrols and drug interdiction are some of the missions the Victoria class subs are supposed to do so I'm not sure why a couple of subs on duty per coast is unrealistic to sometimes assist CCG with intelligence gathering while patrolling for naval threats.
Show me a link that the RCN SSKs have this role? I'm going to ask you to put up a link to anything at all that supports your assertion.

You are wrong, and you are now grasping at anything to support your opinion, such as the underwater 30mm gun below.

According to the RCN, subs are 1/3 the cost of a frigate or a destroyer to operate. They are also the best platform for detecting other subs which, IMO from a military standpoint, is what Canada has to focus on from a defence-of-NA perspective. The Germans have a 30mm cannon that fires from a mast even under water in case you want to know how to deal with that pesky Russian trawler but they should have to.
Detecting submarines - yes. Fisheries patrol - no.

What is this big submarine threat to Canada that has you worried?

I find it funny that you are ripping on a submarine's percieved inability to stop the Russia trawler except by asking it please because that is exactly what the the CCG does and the new Hero class ships designed for fishery patrol have no armament. The 6 officers on board carry firearms and pepper spray. Not very intimidating either. Maybe all we need to do is mount a pepper spray mast on the sub.........

In WW2 the Germans submarines often captured and boarded individual merchant ships at the start of the war, sinking them with charges. It wasn't until the threat of hidden guns and the convoy system that the subs stayed hidden and launched their torpedoes. To be clear, I am not advocating using subs to board ships for Canada, or even confront them. Armed CCG should do this. If they need a sub to be in the area to collect information while hiding out of sight then that is what they should be used for, otherwise patrolling for naval threats - other nations subs, etc.
I find it funny that you think that a submarine is even capable of what you think. Firstly, it is not strictly necessary for fisheries vessels to be armed, nor to fire upon illegal vessels. I was pointing out that the only way a submarine could get any vessel to halt is to:
  1. Ask politely,
  2. Threaten to use deadly force with a torpedo,
  3. Fire a torpedo and destroy (instantly vaporise?) the vessel,
  4. Give it a playful nudge with the bow.

Say one of those was successful. What does the submarine do now? I don't see many submarines with boats of RHIBs hanging off them. Or the gear to handle them. How is a boarding crew supposed to get from submarine to stopped vessel? By inflatable dinghy?

Submarines are not very stable sea vessels. The shape of their hull means they are very efficient and stable under water, but on the surface they wallow and roll all over the place. Not good for boarding parties.

As for WW2, you must have missed the photos of the U-boats in your research. Until the end of the war when aircraft were the biggest threat to surfaced submarines, U-boats carried a main gun with which coerce compliance. Modern submarines do not, and if they did they would be useless as submarines.
Secondly, the Germans operated under different conditions and different technologies. The Germans operated under open skies with few threats until the air gap was closed in 1943. From then on it was dangerous/suicidal for submarines to remain on the surface. Nothing has changed.

You mentioned submarines were an offensive weapon. I agree if we're strictly talking SSNs but SSKs can be great for continental defence too.
No kidding, but even as a defensive weapon their only chance at survival is to always be on the initiative, be on the offensive. SSKs are too slow and too vulnerable to be a reactive defensive weapon. They are an offensive weapon.
 

Future Fleet

New Member
SSKs? For fisheries & EEZ patrol? Pray tell, how does an SSK monitor the behaviour of & arrest fishing boats, & how is it more cost efficient than an OPV at a fraction of the price, the larger (but still much, much cheaper than a sub!) models of which are able to carry a helicopter?
Be happy to. The OPV CCG ships would be the principle vessels performing these tasks. The SSKs are there to provide support to the OPVs and military grade defence of Canadian waters. Keep in mind there would only be two or three West Coast and three or four East coast on patrol at any one time at the maximum. The Canadian Navy thinks they are relevant for fisheries assistance which is the language I used (help monitor not primary monitor) and here is a quote from the Canadian Navy webpage discussing submarines:

These vessels provide the Navy with formidable defensive and offensive capabilities, along with a valuable anti-submarine (ASW) training asset. They are extremely quiet and stealthy, and well suited for current naval defence roles. Important amongst these is support to other federal government departments, including participation in fisheries, immigration, law enforcement and environmental patrols.

In peace time these submarines assist other agencies in operations or perform their own patrols. I wouldn't want to leave the sole defence of Canada to CCG OPV with a 25mm or 40mm cannon as their principle weapon. Having an effective CCG and a few submarines with dedicated defence roles free up the entire Canadian naval surface fleet for blue water duty and power projection.

The only vessel that can approach anywhere near the Canadian EEZ without being spotted hundreds of miles beforehand is a submarine. The best defence against a submarine is another submarine.

BTW the South African Navy uses their Type 209 for fishery patrol and they seem to think it is a great success. Here is a link about it:
http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/new-submarine-lands-catch-of-the-day-1.403449
 

Zhaow

New Member
I agree on the SSN but I wonder if a Type 216 SSK could break through the ice? They are going to be around 4000 tons.


In agreement too regarding the CCG. Probably 25mm is big enough although some of the USCG Cutters have a 40mm and even 57mm guns but they are probably overkill for Canada's needs.
Here's the reason why an SSN will work over an SSK. It's range and endurance under the Ice pack. SSK's need to snorkel to recharge batteries and under the Ice pack, it would be impossible to operate an SSK under the North pole. The only think an SSK would ever do near the ice pack is act as a gate guard to the Ice pack.

All the Current SSK's in the world, I don't know if they even have the capability to sail under the Ice pack or have the ability to punch through a north pole size ice pack.

As for the SSN, they have the range and the endurance to sail and cruise under the Ice pack. Also some SSN's including 688I's that have the capability to punch through an Ice Pack in the North Pole.

For the CCG a 25 to 57MM is sufficient enough for them to stop a boat. All it takes is a very good gunners Mate who knows how to put a bullet on target.
 

Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Why does everybody seem obsessed with an ability to punch through the ice pack?

An SSK can cruise under the ice for substantial periods of time using AIP. A submarine deployed beneath the ice pack doesn't need to punch through anything to target other subs or surface vessels. If the threat is on top of the ice, send in troops or air.
 

Future Fleet

New Member
You are arguing about semantics. By "border protection" I mean low-level civil policing roles - fisheries and EEZ patrol, unauthorised entry into Canadian waters, etc.

As for the RCN being "called away on foreign assignments", you have spent weeks reducing the RCN to a state where it wouldn't be capable of being "called away" to do much of anything. In your current idea of a future RCN, does it now have such an ability?
After consideration of Canada's international roles, I beefed up the SCSCS to 10 and 2 JSS. That is only 5 shy of what is currently projected but I thought the cost of 5 SCSCS would better be spend on a viable CCG and a few subs with AIP for Arctic patrol and a few on patrol on East and West coast.
You may want to check for yourself but as I understand it the CCG does not do any form of EEZ patrol or any policing duties. The fishery patrols are done with a few RCMP officers on board. The CCG acts as a transportation platform for them.

Show me a link that the RCN SSKs have this role? I'm going to ask you to put up a link to anything at all that supports your assertion.
Well how about the Canadian Navy page under the "overview" section that discusses the 21st century roles. The link follows.

Submarines for Canada's 21st Century Roles
These vessels provide the Navy with formidable defensive and offensive capabilities, along with a valuable anti-submarine (ASW) training asset. They are extremely quiet and stealthy, and well suited for current naval defence roles. Important amongst these is support to other federal government departments, including participation in fisheries, immigration, law enforcement and environmental patrols.

Royal Canadian Navy: The Fleet - Submarines - Victoria Class


You are wrong, and you are now grasping at anything to support your opinion, such as the underwater 30mm gun below.
It is called the Muraena gun. Why the tone?

Detecting submarines - yes. Fisheries patrol - no.

What is this big submarine threat to Canada that has you worried?
No big threat on the horizon, don't remember calling it a big threat, but doesn't it make sense to be somewhat prepared for the one and only possible naval threat to Canada especially when submarines, by the Canadian Navy's definition seem so useful for defending and assisting roles? If all nations, including our allies know we have subs on all coasts they will be much less likely to avoid violation of our waters with their own subs especially at strategic choke points for two reasons; 1) they don't want to get detected and slapped on the wrist; 2) they don't want a collision.

I find it funny that you think that a submarine is even capable of what you think. Firstly, it is not strictly necessary for fisheries vessels to be armed, nor to fire upon illegal vessels. I was pointing out that the only way a submarine could get any vessel to halt is to:
  1. Ask politely,
  2. Threaten to use deadly force with a torpedo,
  3. Fire a torpedo and destroy (instantly vaporise?) the vessel,
  4. Give it a playful nudge with the bow.
Who is arguing semantics? You are really caught up in this fishery thing. That is one of several roles they can assist with like it or not. I didn't come up with this on my own. Our Navy said it, other Navies do it too.

I was joking about the 30mm cannon or couldn't you tell by the word "pesky"? Guess I should have put one of those little happy faces next to that line so there would be no mistake. I clearly said the subs should not be doing boarding.

Anyway back to your problem with submarines assisting with fishery patrols.

Say one of those was successful. What does the submarine do now? I don't see many submarines with boats of RHIBs hanging off them. Or the gear to handle them. How is a boarding crew supposed to get from submarine to stopped vessel? By inflatable dinghy?

Submarines are not very stable sea vessels. The shape of their hull means they are very efficient and stable under water, but on the surface they wallow and roll all over the place. Not good for boarding parties.
I agree. Not advocating for boarding partys for the Canadian Navy, just saying it has been done. Please read my most carefully. The CCG would do any interception and boarding required.

As for WW2, you must have missed the photos of the U-boats in your research. Until the end of the war when aircraft were the biggest threat to surfaced submarines, U-boats carried a main gun with which coerce compliance. Modern submarines do not, and if they did they would be useless as submarines.
Secondly, the Germans operated under different conditions and different technologies. The Germans operated under open skies with few threats until the air gap was closed in 1943. From then on it was dangerous/suicidal for submarines to remain on the surface. Nothing has changed.
The deck guns were practically never used in the war and were replaced by additional anti-aircraft guns later on. It was very inefficient to try and sink a ship using the deck gun. Not practical. They were better for prewar intimidation when they were wanting to board.
No argument about the aircraft, was talking about boarding procedure and that ended with convoys and hidden merchant guns early on. The gentlemanly phase of the war, when they let the crews abandoned ship first, was short lived. Your argument about air threats technically makes surface ships obsolete too but you're talking war time against a conventional foe.

No kidding, but even as a defensive weapon their only chance at survival is to always be on the initiative, be on the offensive. SSKs are too slow and too vulnerable to be a reactive defensive weapon. They are an offensive weapon.
OK so they are a defensive offensive weapon?
 

Zhaow

New Member
Why does everybody seem obsessed with an ability to punch through the ice pack?

An SSK can cruise under the ice for substantial periods of time using AIP. A submarine deployed beneath the ice pack doesn't need to punch through anything to target other subs or surface vessels. If the threat is on top of the ice, send in troops or air.
Their is a reason why you need a sub that can punch a hole though an Ice pack. One in an emergency you need to a sub that has it's sails strengthened for Ice pack, that can punch though an Ice pack. On top of that punch through an Ice pack in order to launch Cruise Missiles. The other would be to communicate with the world and be able to resupply with an Icebreaker.

Also all current SSK's don't have the endurance that is required under the Ice pack. Not one known SSK has sailed under the Ice pack and surfaced on the Ice pack. SSK's don't have the endurance that the SSN's have under the Ice pack and can stay their longer than an SSK.
 

Future Fleet

New Member
Why does everybody seem obsessed with an ability to punch through the ice pack?

An SSK can cruise under the ice for substantial periods of time using AIP. A submarine deployed beneath the ice pack doesn't need to punch through anything to target other subs or surface vessels. If the threat is on top of the ice, send in troops or air.
Thought we needed SSNs to properly patrol the Arctic but if there is a way to punch a snorkel through the ice then maybe a SSK could do it too, especially with an AIP system. Nothing beats the sustain speed of an SSN though. Too bad they are so initially expensive.
 

Zhaow

New Member
Thought we needed SSNs to properly patrol the Arctic but if there is a way to punch a snorkel through the ice then maybe a SSK could do it too, especially with an AIP system. Nothing beats the sustain speed of an SSN though. Too bad they are so initially expensive.
Currently, all the known SSK's have never ventured under the Arctic ice pack and we don't know if an SSK has the capability to cruise under the Ice pack. On top of that, I don't know if the AIP can survive under the Ice pack or have the ability to snorkel under the Ice Pack. As far as getting an SSN, Maybe Canada can look at getting in on France's Barracuda class SSN with Ice strengthening for their sails and hull.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Why does everybody seem obsessed with an ability to punch through the ice pack?

An SSK can cruise under the ice for substantial periods of time using AIP. A submarine deployed beneath the ice pack doesn't need to punch through anything to target other subs or surface vessels. If the threat is on top of the ice, send in troops or air.
There is also the very real potential, which people seem to keep overlooking, that the northern icepacks are likely to shrink in size and some might well disappear altogether.

So far people keep seeming to ignore both the capabilities and limitations of various types of platforms.

Subs for instance, are ISR, ASW and anti-shipping assets. Some subs, properly kitted out can also conduct minelaying ops, long range strike package delivery, and infiltrate/exfiltrate SOF assets.

That are not effective EEZ or fishery patrol assets, because they cannot effective operate boarding teams, and to reveal their respective positions is to invite potential hostiles to gather intel on the sub conops and capabilities. Subs gathering intel can potentially cue other assets to respond, but they are not going to be in a position to respond themselves.

Similarly, subs cannot effective provide an area air defence capability, nor an effective air search capability. Those capabilities are within the domain of surface escorts.

Now with respect to various naval platform suggestions... It does seem sensible for any future RCN and/or CCG vessels which will conduct EEZ/fishery and similar types of patrolling to be OPV's in the 2,000+ tonnage displacement, and likely 85+ m in length overall. This should make the patrol vessel to be sufficiently large to be able to operate in most conditions in and around Canadian waters and EEZ.

As for suggestions that the RCN should operate small, fast corvettes and/or large patrol boats... Unless the RCN wanted to restrict ops to within the continental shelf, and also not in high sea states, such specialized littoral vessels are not appropriate for the RCN either.

When people start tossing around shopping lists of equipment, they really need to think about the sort of capabilities which are desired, as well as those capabilities which are needed. Once they have been determined, then an appropriate force construct capable of meeting the requirements can be specified.

-Cheers
 

Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Their is a reason why you need a sub that can punch a hole though an Ice pack. One in an emergency you need to a sub that has it's sails strengthened for Ice pack, that can punch though an Ice pack. On top of that punch through an Ice pack in order to launch Cruise Missiles. The other would be to communicate with the world and be able to resupply with an Icebreaker.

Also all current SSK's don't have the endurance that is required under the Ice pack. Not one known SSK has sailed under the Ice pack and surfaced on the Ice pack. SSK's don't have the endurance that the SSN's have under the Ice pack and can stay their longer than an SSK.
Why exactly are we launching cruise missiles from an SSK? Comms can be achieved by other methods at depth, and subs don't usually resupply when out on patrol. If we are talking a defence force for Canada we are talking the waters to the North of Canada. Granted, even an AIP boat is not going to be of much use for weeks under the ice, but for short patrols no problem. Nuc's bring their own issues quite apart from cost (which seems to have been missed by you and Future Fleet).
 

Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Currently, all the known SSK's have never ventured under the Arctic ice pack and we don't know if an SSK has the capability to cruise under the Ice pack. On top of that, I don't know if the AIP can survive under the Ice pack or have the ability to snorkel under the Ice Pack. As far as getting an SSN, Maybe Canada can look at getting in on France's Barracuda class SSN with Ice strengthening for their sails and hull.
Do you know that for a fact that no AIP sub has been under ice?

If the sub has AIP, why risk the boat trying to snorkel under the pack?

Can you tell me the AIP endurance of the subs with AIP in service now?

Seems to me without knowing these things you could be grasping at straws.
 

Future Fleet

New Member
There is also the very real potential, which people seem to keep overlooking, that the northern icepacks are likely to shrink in size and some might well disappear altogether.

When will that happen? Years? Decades?

That are not effective EEZ or fishery patrol assets, because they cannot effective operate boarding teams, and to reveal their respective positions is to invite potential hostiles to gather intel on the sub conops and capabilities. Subs gathering intel can potentially cue other assets to respond, but they are not going to be in a position to respond themselves.

True according the the RCN they seem to appreciate the intel and conops capabilities well enough. The CCG should be performing boarding.

As for suggestions that the RCN should operate small, fast corvettes and/or large patrol boats... Unless the RCN wanted to restrict ops to within the continental shelf, and also not in high sea states, such specialized littoral vessels are not appropriate for the RCN either.

When people start tossing around shopping lists of equipment, they really need to think about the sort of capabilities which are desired, as well as those capabilities which are needed. Once they have been determined, then an appropriate force construct capable of meeting the requirements can be specified.
I can only assume you mean me but what a great way to start discussions by exploring ideas. I've learned quite a bit in the last few weeks. Love to see your shopping list......

Does your above statement mean you don't agree with a CCG in line with a USCG?
 

Future Fleet

New Member
Why exactly are we launching cruise missiles from an SSK? Comms can be achieved by other methods at depth, and subs don't usually resupply when out on patrol. If we are talking a defence force for Canada we are talking the waters to the North of Canada. Granted, even an AIP boat is not going to be of much use for weeks under the ice, but for short patrols no problem. Nuc's bring their own issues quite apart from cost (which seems to have been missed by you and Future Fleet).
I know SSNs are around 2.5 billion and the odds of getting them are nil but AIP can only sustain for a month at max and I'm pretty sure that means not moving around. An SSK on AIP means running at a max speed of 5 knots. Not great for intercepting.

I thought maybe a snorkel alone could punch through the ice somehow at least as a backup to AIP in case it fails.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
When will that happen? Years? Decades?
Unless there is significant change, soon, then the Northwest passage might well be open year round within a decade or perhaps two. There are already areas of water along in the US along the northeast Atlantic coast which are ~ten degrees warmer than is normal for this time of year.

To perhaps better illustrate the reality that environmental conditions in the Arctic are likely to change significantly within our lifetimes in just the next few decades, governments are already planning on ways to claim and contest resources in and under the Arctic. It was less than five years ago that a Russian undersea mission was conducted to plant a Russian flag in the seabed at the North Pole, laying claim to the resources therein.

True according the the RCN they seem to appreciate the intel and conops capabilities well enough. The CCG should be performing boarding.
It is debatable whether the CCG should be performing boardings or not. What would need to be answered is what exactly what provisions within Canadian law there are for CCG operations.

Does your above statement mean you don't agree with a CCG in line with a USCG?
The USCG is more or less a branch of the US military (in wartime it falls under the Dept. of the Navy) which also performs law enforcement functions which other branchs of the US armed forces are forbidden to fufill unless directed to do so by the POTUS. Unless or until there is provision in Canadian law for the CCG to perform some of the same functions, there is no need for the CCG to operate in the same manner as the USCG, or fufil some of the roles which the RCN currently has.

Also keep in mind, Canada has a national police force in the form of the RCMP. Due a significant difference in origin and national history, there is no comparable national uniformed law enforcement agency within the US. There are a number of Federal agencies which have agents with national law enforcement authority for things which fall within the bailiwick of their respective agencies, like the FBI, BATFE, ICE, SEC, IRS, Secret Service, Park Rangers, Marshals etc. Into this curious situation some of the law enforcement functions of the USCG come into play. Canada, having the RCMP might not need or even want it's CCG to act in a law enforcement capacity like the US has its Coast Guard.

From the quick read through which I have done of the Oceans Act and Canada Shipping Act, both of which cover the responsibilities of the CCG, it seems that the CCG is more to provide a maritime safety, SAR and marine environmental protection capability, as well as maritime support to other governmental agencies. It does not seem to have a law enforcement component . Therefore advocating that CCG vessels should be armed, have boarding teams, etc all seems to be ignoring a number of legal realities.

If Canada changes the laws, adding a law enforcement/border protection role to the CCG, then perhaps suggesting changes to CCG vessels would make sense. If Canada wishes to have the CCG remain focused on maritime SAR and safety as well as marine pollution response, so be it.

-Cheers
 
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