Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
From your link that you posted earlier.

Initial logistic support, including training for aircrew and maintenance personnel will be provided through the FMS program, utilising the system that has been established in the US. Defence will seek a separate agreement with the C-27J manufacturer, Alenia, in order to ensure that RAAF can operate, maintain and modify the aircraft throughout its planned life.

I got the impression we will get EX US C-27J and a training package thru FMS.
The Bold text seems to me to indicate the Government will get a Guarantee off Alenia to ensure the Commonwealth can get spare parts ,modify and maintain our C-27J

With a number of Governments around the world cutting defence spending ,Alenia would be happy to supply parts ect to a fleet of 10 A/C than see the USA scrap the 38.

Some money is better than no money for Alenia.
Can i just add,about bloody time :D
At $1.4 billion for 10 aircraft they will be brand new aircraft. Anyway the USAF has been prevented from spending money divesting of retiring or planning such to any of its C27J aircraft in 2013 and after 2013 it is subject to a reporting regime regarding the aircraft. So the politicians will be keeping very close eyes on all 38 USAF C27Js. Hopefully the program will be returned to the US Army.
 
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not up on all the ins and outs of the FMS process (or the C-27 contract), but I don't think through FMS there is any distinction between USAF and customer planes on the production line and all aircraft get a US military serial number (the 1st RAAF C-17 has the USAF serial 06-0206). The customer buys the system from the USAF, and then the USAF contracts from the manufacturer.
So if the USAF gives up earlier slots and and replaces them with later slots, and so long as the US receives 38 aircraft they have contracted (or otherwise comes to terms with Alenia), then the contract with Alenia would be satisfied.

If this is possible then delivery of C-27Js could be accelerated, and the USAF could defer deliveries until budget/cancellation issues are resolved.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I think the initial purchase and ongoing support are two separate issues.

I don't agree that we will be getting 10 ex US C27J's without an increase in overall production.

Alenia, at this stage at least, has made it clear that if any of the 38 US ordered aircraft offered for sale will NOT be supported, but will support additional FMS sales.
Alenia has backtracked from that somewhat. It is deeply unhappy at being shafted by the USAF, but can see that it's better to get support contracts. But if you want to buy any of those USAF aircraft, you'd better talk to Alenia first, to make sure that you will get support.
 

phreeky

Active Member
With the C-27Js being supposedly based at Richmond, is that suggesting that they're more a C-130H replacement than a Caribou replacement? Or was the Caribou replacement always going to be based there? No doubt easier maintenance wise etc, but I'm curious as to the actual reasoning.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
With the C-27Js being supposedly based at Richmond, is that suggesting that they're more a C-130H replacement than a Caribou replacement? Or was the Caribou replacement always going to be based there? No doubt easier maintenance wise etc, but I'm curious as to the actual reasoning.
Boo's used to fly out of Richmond, I think they were based there as well (they were always around- maybe too slow to fly out!). Richmond was always the herc center, so rolling the boo's and the hercs together for a replacement was always on the cards.

The C-130H had become statues in poor condition sitting out on the runway with no engines. They hadn't been air force painted and I would imagine pencilled in for early retirement.

C-27 fills a nice little niche between hercs and king air 350/leased small commercial craft. Pleasing to see it selected with minimal of fuss. I hope the US looks at the C27 again so we can hook straight in to a global operator of C-27.

RAAF is looking pretty good in term of lift. C17, 8xC130, C27, 350 then the army/navy helos (which we need more off but there are issues there). I think there were issues will all rotary assets.

Combined with the improvement of sealift (LHD, Choles etc) we should have good ability to deploy our forces throughout the region.
 

the road runner

Active Member
RAAF is looking pretty good in term of lift. C17, 8xC130, C27, 350 then the army/navy helos (which we need more off but there are issues there). I think there were issues will all rotary assets.
Australia has 8 C-130 H(being phased out) but 12 C130J models.

I was reading today that RAAF will find out this year if we will operate Growlers for the RAAF.The article also refers to the JSF as a significant capability that alters the calculus of power projection in the region

Growler could prove a winner: RAAF chief
 
The C-130H had become statues in poor condition sitting out on the runway with no engines. They hadn't been air force painted and I would imagine pencilled in for early retirement.
Only 4 of the 12 C-130H were taken out of service and put into open storage, and although I'm willing to be corrected by someone who works at Richmond, only two were stripped of their engines (A97-010 and A97-012) and other parts and sealed against the weather. The other 8 have remained in regular service and some have been repainted dark grey as they went through maintenance. C-130H A97-007 on exercise at Cope North in February.

I assume it was those initial 4 that were gifted to Indonesia, with the intent that they be refurbished and put back into service, so they can't be in too bad condition.
As for the other 8, they still have a lot of service left in them so they could be sold as running concerns, donated to friendly services, used to replace A and E-models that are used as training aids, or perhaps preserved as gate guard at Richmond, seeing as C-130s are so linked with the base. I wonder if the RAAF Museum would be willing to take another C-130 on considering they already have A and E-models at Point Cook.
 
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Scrumpoacher

New Member
Minimum Fuss?

Boo's used to fly out of Richmond, I think they were based there as well (they were always around- maybe too slow to fly out!). Richmond was always the herc center, so rolling the boo's and the hercs together for a replacement was always on the cards.

The C-130H had become statues in poor condition sitting out on the runway with no engines. They hadn't been air force painted and I would imagine pencilled in for early retirement.

C-27 fills a nice little niche between hercs and king air 350/leased small commercial craft. Pleasing to see it selected with minimal of fuss. I hope the US looks at the C27 again so we can hook straight in to a global operator of C-27.

RAAF is looking pretty good in term of lift. C17, 8xC130, C27, 350 then the army/navy helos (which we need more off but there are issues there). I think there were issues will all rotary assets.

Combined with the improvement of sealift (LHD, Choles etc) we should have good ability to deploy our forces throughout the region.
Minimum fuss-Not really mate, the program to replace the boo has been running for over 20yrs in various guises! Some say nearly 30...Good to see a replacement either way. Bet it won't be as fun as a boo to take off in. Cheers
 

hairyman

Active Member
I notice in the recent article from the Minister for Defence, where the C27J and the C130 are compared, the airlift capacity of the RAAF is listed, with no mention of the Airbus KC-30A Multi-Role Tanker Transport. Doe'snt it ever get used to carry equipment or personnel? If not why not?
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well minimum of fuss recently. I thought as the US dropped out of the c27 business, it would get messy and put off etc.

I had thought the H's were complete statues, good to hear they were still moving around, as I drove past every few days it seemed like more and more were becoming ornaments. While cutting capability is never a happy thing, the H's did seem to be winding down so actual usable capability loss won't sound so bad as its written on paper. People around Richmond were getting worried, with talk of Richmond being Sydney's new airport and all these planes lying around being stripped back.

I wonder if NZ might be interested in the C27's or our old hercs. Philippines might be looking to spend more on defence soon as well.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Well minimum of fuss recently. I thought as the US dropped out of the c27 business, it would get messy and put off etc.
The USAF has been bitten in it's collective arse by the House Armed Services Committee over the C27J and so the ANG might be flying them or IMHO program should be handed back to US Army with full (IIRC)138 aircraft buy.

I wonder if NZ might be interested in the C27's or our old hercs. Philippines might be looking to spend more on defence soon as well.
No mate we don't want any old Hercs. Maybe C27Js though. The planning has started for the RNZAF C130H/LEP replacement, with the govt recognising that the five C130H LEP have 8 - 10 years life left. It is envisioned that a decision will be made in time for the 2015 DWP. The two main options are replacing the five aircraft with similar capabilities e.g., C130J; or with aircraft that are offering different capabilities e.g., A400 and CN235 or C295 or C27J combo. Unfortunately the end users aren't the ones who make the decisions on capital equipment purchases.
 

jack412

Active Member
it looks like the NGJ won't be here till 2020,

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-35-integration-deferred-indefinitely-371742/
The US Navy is moving full-steam ahead on its Next Generation Jammer (NGJ) pod development effort, but integration onto the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) has been deferred indefinitely.

Instead, the USN is focusing on getting the NGJ developed and fielded onto the Boeing EA-18G Growler by 2020. The service expects the EA-18G will be in service until at least the mid-2030s. The NGJ is expected to replace the current AN/ALQ-99 jamming pods found on the Growler and the aging Northrop Grumman EA-6B Prowler.

At present, the USN hopes to have a final request for proposal (RfP) issued for the programme by the end of June. The USN recently issued a draft RfP earlier in April as it prepares to move the NGJ from a technology maturation effort into a full-scale developmental programme.
 
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hairyman

Active Member
From Flightglobal.
And further to my post two days ago, so they are using it or intend to use it to transport personnel.
"An Airbus Military A330 multi-role tanker transport (MRTT) has carried the largest passenger load in the history of the Royal Australian Air Force.

The aircraft, flown by 33 Sqn, carried 220 officer cadets and 14 crew on a 2h flight out of RAAF Fairbairn, says Airbus Military in a statement."
 

gmed

New Member
C27J vs c22 osprey

Just to show my ignorance, (apart from army claiming them) why would the c22 osprey not be considered. Neither the C22J or c295 are really replacements for the Caribou. please help educate me.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Just to show my ignorance, (apart from army claiming them) why would the c22 osprey not be considered. Neither the C22J or c295 are really replacements for the Caribou. please help educate me.
Maybe because the Osprey don't meet specifications. Surf the web and check out the specs. Not only is the Osprey more expensive, it has about half the load and considerably less range. Keep in mind the Osprey is designed for use by the Marine Corps off amphibious ships.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Just to show my ignorance, (apart from army claiming them) why would the c22 osprey not be considered. Neither the C22J or c295 are really replacements for the Caribou. please help educate me.
The RAAF didn't want another Caribou it wanted a new battlefield airlifter. The key requirement is not a very short take off and landing capability. But survivability, command and control.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Maybe because the Osprey don't meet specifications. Surf the web and check out the specs. Not only is the Osprey more expensive, it has about half the load and considerably less range. Keep in mind the Osprey is designed for use by the Marine Corps off amphibious ships.
If you compare V22 against DHC-4 Caribou they actually compare favourably,9T payload compared to 3.6T range is shorter in the V22,same amount of pax and no need for a landing strip, but remember that all that DHC-4/V22 can do so can the CH-47F at about half the fly away cost .

C17/C130J will become the long haul oversize lift, C27J intra theatre lift, CH-47F tactical lift to troops in the field.

an old paper for AIR 5190
AIR 5190 analysis

AIR 5190 Phase 2: Light Tactical Airlift Capability
Aircraft will be a replacement for the current Caribou. Phase is also likely to provide for a Level 5 full-flight simulator. Possible options could include platforms such as the CN295 ((sic)), C27J, V22 Osprey or Chinook. Replacement options may be affected by solutions for AIR 5414 Phase 1 C-130H Refurbishment and recommendations flowing from an ongoing Airlift Study.
YOD 2004/05. RFT release 2005/06. Contract 2006/07. In-service delivery 2010.
Scale of expenditure: $750m - $1000m.

Within AIR 5190, industry expects iteration but not so much as to fundamentally change the nature of the project. In its studies Defence has exhaustively analysed the LTAC several times. Evidently each time a definite decision was reached, it was for LTA rather than more C-130s and/or more CH-47s while possibly accepting separately that more of each would be useful. So the next ITR or RFP is likely to resemble the 'definitive' RFT issued to the primes on 1 May 1998. Nevertheless DCP2001 implies that AIR 5190 might be revised to acquire additional Hercules - C-130Js or KC-130Js - instead of LTA. Parameters indicate that an almost fully loaded C-27J or C-295M (or a fully loaded CH-47D or V-22B) can readily land and takeoff from short and confined airstrips unusable by a C-130J and which the latter could not approach for a LAPES delivery. Also the system cost of adding five C-130Js is similar to the system cost of adding 12 CH-47Ds or introducing 8 CV-22Bs, 10 C-27Js, or 14 C-295Ms. Operating costs might favour the smaller number of Hercules but they would provide less concurrency.

Repetitive proposal of the V-22 as a viable candidate for AIR 5190 may result from Air Force attempts to reclaim a position in VTOL operations but it is more likely to reflect concern for the prompt recovery of downed aircrew. Army might see the V-22 as useful for interdiction but not if that led to a reduction in the number of utility helicopters. The V-22 has not been included in any publicly released list of candidates for the land/ship-based utility helicopters. As addressed in AIR 5406 Phases 5/6, these could be a marinised version of the Blackhawk with some commonality also with 16 Seahawk anti-submarine and surface warfare helicopters operated by Navy. The main alternatives are the Sea King and various derivatives of the Iroquois.

Examination of photographs indicates the hanger door of the 9,000 tonne amphibious warfare ships Kanimbla and Manoora is high enough to admit an HV or MV-22 but that probably only one could be accommodated. These ships reach their expected design life in 2015. Their replacement is to be considered under joint project JP 2027 Phase 4 with a YOD of 2009/10. Navy has one other 6,000 tonne amphibious warfare ship. This has a smaller hanger, and reaches its expected design life in 2010. The CV-22 could be less costly to acquire than the HV or MV-22 which have the wing swivel system for maritime stowage. If however the HV/MV-22 is unlikely to be acquired on the grounds of performance and cost for ADF land/ship-based operations, then it is unlikely that a similar number of CV-22s would be acquired for ADF land-based operations. If size was the deciding factor, then AIR 5190 is the only current project that might acquire the V-22.

The main argument for the V-22 is its capability for VTOL and the main argument against is the inefficiency of its highly loaded wing when used as a STOL aircraft. If one rotor was disabled in STOL mode, the V-22 could recover to an expedient airstrip. It is more expensive than the competitors and would provide less concurrency but it is an outstanding technical achievement. So this could be an instance of an unusually effective system versus a more efficient or notionally cost-effective alternative. The power needed to drive its rotors for VTOL does translate into a heavy potential payload in STOL mode but the V-22 cabin is smaller than that of the Caribou. Its capacity is non-compliant with the troop/paratroop and vehicle loads specified as essential in the ITR for AIR 5190.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Operating both C-17 and C-27J is there any real need to retain the C-130J long term? Why not just buy some additional C-17s with the line is still hot and order additional C-27s as the Hercs time out or even consider selling them as additional C-27s can be delivered?

Will the Army be getting there Kingairs back now the Spartan has been ordered? Is there a long term replacement envisaged for the Kingairs?
 
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Milne Bay

Active Member
Operating both C-17 and C-27J is there any real need to retain the C-130J long term? Why not just buy some additional C-17s with the line is still hot and order additional C-27s as the Hercs time out or even consider selling them as additional C-27s can be delivered?
This might come down to operating costs. I think from memory, the C-17's are relatively expensive to run.
 

winnyfield

New Member
Maybe because the Osprey don't meet specifications. Surf the web and check out the specs. Not only is the Osprey more expensive, it has about half the load and considerably less range. Keep in mind the Osprey is designed for use by the Marine Corps off amphibious ships.
Its primarily a troop-lifter in USMC service - can't carry standard vehicles and 463L pallets internally. CH-53E/K and KC-130 are used for cargo.
 
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