Rebuilding a smaller mid sized Navy

Sea Toby

New Member
Yes they have a large budget but they still have the same limitations as the Navy. High personel cost, etc.

They need replacments for the Hamiltons and they need replacments for their Ice breakers.

Thats the problem with putting them off you end up needing everything at the same time.

Still think it would be better to develope a Multi Frigate class that can be used by both Navy and Coast guard. Stanflex like the Danes. Hanger, 5in gun up front common on all designs. After that fitted for the Mission.
I don't ever recall the USCG ever having a 5 inch gun. Do you? A 5 inch gun isn't necessary for constable duties. On the other hand the USCG does require cutters with very long endurance. A key operational and fishery area of the Bering Sea is a very long ways from US naval replenishment ships.

While the USCG may operate the polar icebreakers, its the National Science Foundation that uses them. Surely the NSC can afford to buy icebreakers they use.

The USCG has a large fleet. Not many nations have three polar icebreakers, soon to be six heavy endurance cutters (already a budget cut of two), and hopefully the upcoming complete build of 25 ocean patrol cutters. Those upcoming 25 ocean patrol cutters will replace 6 Hamiltons, 13 Famous/Bears, and 14 Reliances heavy and medium endurance cutters over the next 20 or so years presently in the fleet. 25 cutters to replace 33 cutters. Keep in mind the 6 Bertholfs and the soon to be decommissioned Hamiltons are the only cutters capable of operating in the Bering Sea.

When the USCG was in the Treasury Dept. ships were bought. When the USCG was in the Transportation Dept. roads were bought. When the USCG made it to the Dept. of Homeland Security new ships were bought finally. During the present budget squeeze even Homeland Security is seeing budget cuts. Two of the Bertholfs were to be homeported in the Atlantic, but now with the two cuts I doubt whether any will be stationed in the Atlantic.

As for the upcoming OPCs, it appears the USCG may not get a ship much better than a French OPC Gowind which run around USD 200 million each. The latest NSC Bertholfs are running around USD 400 million each, the first couple ran around USD 600 million each.



Anyone who has watched the Discovery Channels The Deadliest Catch series, knows that the USCG's Hamilton class cutters have protected those Bering Sea fisheries for the past 40 years inside the USA's 200 miles EEZ. Outside the 200 miles EEZ the fish have been depleted. This year the fishery has cut the catch limit 25 percent for king crabs.
 

chis73

Active Member
It seems to me that Canada and Australia should be natural partners in ship design. Looking at both navies holisticly, they are of similar size & scope, with comparable requirements and a common history (in terms of vessel types operated). Much of both navies requirements could be met by common designs. If they can't get what they want MOTS, then a joint venture design between them would be a natural solution in many cases.

Both have widely separated, semi-independent fleets based on their east & west coasts, built around small numbers of destroyers and frigates. Both have a reasonably secure southern coast (if you can consider the Great Lakes as such in Canada's case). The main differences are of course the unique requirements for their northern coasts - in Australia's case a requirement for an Amphibious force and patrol boats; in Canada's - one for ice breakers (and perhaps nuclear submarines if they want to seriously contest sovereignty). Even where the requirements are different, they complement each other well - Australia has expertise in tropical environments, Canada in Arctic. Both have a preference for domestic shipbuilding, using US armaments & systems. Both want close integration with US forces.

Upcoming Naval Projects that could use this shared design approach:
  • AOR (of similar size to the RFA Fort Victoria class, 3 each - one per coast + one spare. Berlin class is too small for Canada)
  • Submarine (long range diesel electric, approx 6 each - 3 per coast). Both would prefer nuclear if it was politically acceptable / affordable due to endurance requirements.
  • Frigate (GP design, 5000+ tons, 8-12 each, 4-6 per coast). Frigates are still the most versatile option around.
  • Destroyer (AAW design similar to Hobart class, 3 each - one per coast + one spare).
  • LPD (similar to Bay class, 3 each - one per coast + one spare)

Canada's problem is that politically it would want domestic build for all of the above. If they could get past this for the larger items (AORs & LPDs) they could finally move forward. It's quite scary to think how far they have fallen in the last 40 years in naval design & construction (they practically invented the AOR).

Chis 73
 

Belesari

New Member
I believe they had a 5in before.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilton_class_cutter"]Hamilton class cutter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

"Beginning in the 1980s and ending in 1992, the entire class was modernized through the Fleet Rehabilitation and Modernization (FRAM) program, which included the replacement of the original 5 inch (127 mm)/38 caliber gun with a much more modern 76 mm (3 inch)/62 caliber weapon."

Found that on Wiki.

I just think if the coast guard, Canadian Navy and US navy sat down and worked on it they could probably come up with a good multi-mission frigate that along with flexstan could meet the needs of all 3 services.

Basic package which can be upgraded as needed.

I don't ever recall the USCG ever having a 5 inch gun. Do you? A 5 inch gun isn't necessary for constable duties. On the other hand the USCG does require cutters with very long endurance. A key operational and fishery area of the Bering Sea is a very long ways from US naval replenishment ships.

While the USCG may operate the polar icebreakers, its the National Science Foundation that uses them. Surely the NSC can afford to buy icebreakers they use.

The USCG has a large fleet. Not many nations have three polar icebreakers, soon to be six heavy endurance cutters (already a budget cut of two), and hopefully the upcoming complete build of 25 ocean patrol cutters. Those upcoming 25 ocean patrol cutters will replace 6 Hamiltons, 13 Famous/Bears, and 14 Reliances heavy and medium endurance cutters over the next 20 or so years presently in the fleet. 25 cutters to replace 33 cutters. Keep in mind the 6 Bertholfs and the soon to be decommissioned Hamiltons are the only cutters capable of operating in the Bering Sea.

When the USCG was in the Treasury Dept. ships were bought. When the USCG was in the Transportation Dept. roads were bought. When the USCG made it to the Dept. of Homeland Security new ships were bought finally. During the present budget squeeze even Homeland Security is seeing budget cuts. Two of the Bertholfs were to be homeported in the Atlantic, but now with the two cuts I doubt whether any will be stationed in the Atlantic.

As for the upcoming OPCs, it appears the USCG may not get a ship much better than a French OPC Gowind which run around USD 200 million each. The latest NSC Bertholfs are running around USD 400 million each, the first couple ran around USD 600 million each.



Anyone who has watched the Discovery Channels The Deadliest Catch series, knows that the USCG's Hamilton class cutters have protected those Bering Sea fisheries for the past 40 years inside the USA's 200 miles EEZ. Outside the 200 miles EEZ the fish have been depleted. This year the fishery has cut the catch limit 25 percent for king crabs.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I'm confused Sea Toby, didn't the Hamilton class WHECs have 5"/38-cal from commissioning until they were upgraded in the late 1980s?

Chis73
I worked with the Hamilton class USCGC Morganthau in Vietnam in 1970 when she was new; yes she had a 5"/38.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Yes, during that time the Hamiltons had a five inch gun. Frankly, to match the rest of the coast guard fleet, they shouldn't have had one. But that is another story. No one was more pleased than me when the Famous/Bears and the Hamiltons were fitted with the Oto Melara three inch gun.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Trying to find stats on Canadian Navy boarding off the Canadian coast. Can anyone help?
Isn't that the job of their coast guard? I am not aware, but i may be wrong, whether the RCN have constables aboard their naval ships. However I do recall their navy being involved capturing the merchant ship GTS Katie they hired to move their army's equipment in Operation Megaphone.
 

Future Fleet

New Member
Isn't that the job of their coast guard? I am not aware, but i may be wrong, whether the RCN have constables aboard their naval ships. However I do recall their navy being involved capturing the merchant ship GTS Katie they hired to move their army's equipment in Operation Megaphone.
Royal Canadian Navy: In Depth - Fact File - The Role of Canada's Major Warships

The Navy sure thinks they need to be boarding ships. I imagine the boarding they are describing has to do with international operations and police duties that do not involve Canadian defense. As you said our CG does that.

Here is a list of what our Navy says it must do both in home waters and on international assignments:

1. move quickly from one area to another;
2. be effective in all weather and sea conditions;
3. possess sufficient endurance – to reach the areas where they are needed and
to remain in these areas long enough to complete the tasks that they will be
called upon to perform;
4. use sensors – such as radars, sonars, electronic surveillance systems, and
ship-borne helicopters – to determine who else is in the area and what these
other aircraft, ships, or submarines are doing;
5. defend against a range of diverse threats – such as attacks from other ships,
aircraft, missiles, and submarines;
6. apply appropriate levels of force – against other ships, aircraft, submarines, or
land targets should it be necessary to accomplish the tasks that have been
assigned it;
7. communicate – through radio and satellite systems – with other ships, aircraft,
submarines and ashore;
8. be interoperable – to work with and share information with the warships of other
allied navies when participating in multinational operations; and
9. carry a modern, maritime helicopter – to dramatically increase a warship’s
effectiveness
10. provide the means to exercise command – to enable a nation’s seagoing
commanders to assume command of a group of warships that have been
brought together to accomplish a common mission.

The Canadian Navy webpage then goes on to discuss why we must have large frigates and destroyers so our allies will respect us and we can have "symbolic value." It sounds like the Navy prefers to see itself as primarily a force to be deployed in foreign operations when clearly that is only the last of three of its primary missions. This list says "big ship" but I think when you create requirements that point towards a forgone conclusion, eyebrows raise. As I understand, this same thing has happened with some specs for a replacement plane. The specs were written so only the F-35 could be considered.

Reading the above list and keeping in mind that it is the coast guard's job to board ships, it seems that domestic defense of Canada / NA has more to do with surveillance, all-weather capability, and the ability to strike than anything else. I will recall my layered submarine argument and add this as proof of cost effectiveness.

Large SSK subs performing surveillance of Canada's coastal regions, communicating directly with threats, or alerting coastal defense and or coast guard ships to board potential threats could work. The Germans at the beginning of WW2 used to board all merchant ships and use charges to sink them until thinks got out of hand. Submarines could probably send boarding parties themselves for those few times when it was necessary. Coastal defense ships could be directed in to intercept while the subs silently monitors if it didn't want to give up its position.
Much cheaper than expensive large frigates and destroyers.

Our Arctic north could finally be properly defended with the use of AIP technology allowing for a month of underwater operations. Frigates and destroyers can't patrol the northern coast of Canada effectively and the APS have been reduced to 'slush breakers.'

Canada should build a few (8) Absalon style frigates with extended armament and two or three troop transporting replenishment ships to transport our Army, or help out in a crisis. Domestic search and rescue should be the sole domain of the CG and they should be properly equipped to do it.

If the navy wants to 'impress' people standing on a dock or military brass from other countries when they all go out for recess together than it can send the support frigates and and replenishment ships in one or two large groups to fewer crisis zones. Still part of international operations but within a reasonable scope.

I originally envisioned the following:

15 SSK AIP (like the Type 216)
OR
8-10 SSK Type 216 and 2-3 SSNs provided that we could buy them and public
is agreeable.

6-8 Coastal defense ships like the Visby but redesigned for Atlantic/Pacific duty and carrying a helicopter
6-8 Absalon like frigates but better armed and a helicopter or two
2-3 replenishment ships with troop carrying capacity and maybe some V-22s if they can reduce costs
 
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1805

New Member
Royal Canadian Navy: In Depth - Fact File - The Role of Canada's Major Warships

The Navy sure thinks they need to be boarding ships. I imagine the boarding they are describing has to do with international operations and police duties that do not involve Canadian defense. As you said our CG does that.

Here is a list of what our Navy says it must do both in home waters and on international assignments:

1. move quickly from one area to another;
2. be effective in all weather and sea conditions;
3. possess sufficient endurance – to reach the areas where they are needed and
to remain in these areas long enough to complete the tasks that they will be
called upon to perform;
4. use sensors – such as radars, sonars, electronic surveillance systems, and
ship-borne helicopters – to determine who else is in the area and what these
other aircraft, ships, or submarines are doing;
5. defend against a range of diverse threats – such as attacks from other ships,
aircraft, missiles, and submarines;
6. apply appropriate levels of force – against other ships, aircraft, submarines, or
land targets should it be necessary to accomplish the tasks that have been
assigned it;
7. communicate – through radio and satellite systems – with other ships, aircraft,
submarines and ashore;
8. be interoperable – to work with and share information with the warships of other
allied navies when participating in multinational operations; and
9. carry a modern, maritime helicopter – to dramatically increase a warship’s
effectiveness
10. provide the means to exercise command – to enable a nation’s seagoing
commanders to assume command of a group of warships that have been
brought together to accomplish a common mission.

The Canadian Navy webpage then goes on to discuss why we must have large frigates and destroyers so our allies will respect us and we can have "symbolic value." It sounds like the Navy prefers to see itself as primarily a force to be deployed in foreign operations when clearly that is only the last of three of its primary missions. This list says "big ship" but I think when you create requirements that point towards a forgone conclusion, eyebrows raise. As I understand, this same thing has happened with some specs for a replacement plane. The specs were written so only the F-35 could be considered.

Reading the above list and keeping in mind that it is the coast guard's job to board ships, it seems that domestic defense of Canada / NA has more to do with surveillance, all-weather capability, and the ability to strike than anything else. I will recall my layered submarine argument and add this as proof of cost effectiveness.

Large SSK subs performing surveillance of Canada's coastal regions, communicating directly with threats, or alerting coastal defense and or coast guard ships to board potential threats could work. The Germans at the beginning of WW2 used to board all merchant ships and use charges to sink them until thinks got out of hand. Submarines could probably send boarding parties themselves for those few times when it was necessary. Coastal defense ships could be directed in to intercept while the subs silently monitors if it didn't want to give up its position.
Much cheaper than expensive large frigates and destroyers.

Our Arctic north could finally be properly defended with the use of AIP technology allowing for a month of underwater operations. Frigates and destroyers can't patrol the northern coast of Canada effectively and the APS have been reduced to 'slush breakers.'

Canada should build a few (8) Absalon style frigates with extended armament and two or three troop transporting replenishment ships to transport our Army, or help out in a crisis. Domestic search and rescue should be the sole domain of the CG and they should be properly equipped to do it.

If the navy wants to 'impress' people standing on a dock or military brass from other countries when they all go out for recess together than it can send the support frigates and and replenishment ships in one or two large groups to fewer crisis zones. Still part of international operations but within a reasonable scope.

I originally envisioned the following:

15 SSK AIP (like the Type 216)
8 Coastal defense ships like the Visby but redesigned for Atlantic/Pacific duty and carrying a helicopter
8 Absalon like frigates but better armed and a helicopter or two
3 replenishment ships with troop carrying capacity and maybe some V-22s if they can reduce costs

The 8 coastal defense ships would probably end up working with the CG most of the time anyway but still should be CN and armed as a warship.
Do you really need the JSS ships if the Absalon concept is larger say c8,000-10,000?
 

Future Fleet

New Member
Do you really need the JSS ships if the Absalon concept is larger say c8,000-10,000?
Sorry my post wasn't complete. I edited it to add in the SSNs and reduced the overall number of coastal, replenishment and Absalon ships into a range. The lower number is what I would recommend with the SSNs. The logic being that they are more expensive to operate and their contribution to international operations would be significant enough to reduce frigates and coastal defence ships and still gain the much sought after reputation for contributing meaningful ships to operations.

To answer your question with the original numbers, the replenishment ships cargo carrying capacity seems reasonable if we are talking Berlin class ships. Absalon style ships still need refuelling and I'm sure the army could use that much cargo carrying capacity. The idea behind 2 or 3 is one per coast plus an extra if we are not going with SSNs.

Frankly, it is amazing with our north that SSNs are not in our navy already even considering their expense.

Revised with SSNs:

10 SSK Type 216 and 2-3 SSNs provided that we could buy them and public
is agreeable.

6 Coastal defence ships like the Visby but redesigned for Atlantic/Pacific duty and carrying a helicopter

6 Absalon like frigates but better armed and a helicopter or two

2-3 replenishment ships with troop carrying capacity and maybe some V-22s if they can reduce costs
 

Belesari

New Member
Sorry my post wasn't complete. I edited it to add in the SSNs and reduced the overall number of coastal, replenishment and Absalon ships into a range. The lower number is what I would recommend with the SSNs. The logic being that they are more expensive to operate and their contribution to international operations would be significant enough to reduce frigates and coastal defence ships and still gain the much sought after reputation for contributing meaningful ships to operations.

To answer your question with the original numbers, the replenishment ships cargo carrying capacity seems reasonable if we are talking Berlin class ships. Absalon style ships still need refuelling and I'm sure the army could use that much cargo carrying capacity. The idea behind 2 or 3 is one per coast plus an extra if we are not going with SSNs.

Frankly, it is amazing with our north that SSNs are not in our navy already even considering their expense.

Revised with SSNs:

10 SSK Type 216 and 2-3 SSNs provided that we could buy them and public
is agreeable.

6 Coastal defence ships like the Visby but redesigned for Atlantic/Pacific duty and carrying a helicopter

6 Absalon like frigates but better armed and a helicopter or two

2-3 replenishment ships with troop carrying capacity and maybe some V-22s if they can reduce costs
If i remember correctly the absolons already have hangers for helicopters.
 

Future Fleet

New Member
If i remember correctly the absolons already have hangers for helicopters.
Didn't mean to imply that they didn't, just making connection to the navy's concern that they have helicopters on their large warships.


In addition to the above numbers I tried to find / estimate the cost of the above and spending $35 billion on a new navy could give us:

Absalon like ships more heavily armed 7 @ 800m each = 5.6 billion
Replenishment ships 3 @ 650m each = 1.95 billion
SSNs 6 @ 2.7b each = 16.2 billion
SSKs 10 @ 900m each = 9 billion
Coastal patrol corvette 8 @ 250m each = 2 billion

Total of $34.75 billion
 
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Future Fleet

New Member
why do you need 3 replenishment ships if you only have 7 Major Surface Combatants?
1 east coast, 1 west coast, 1 reserve / going through refit. The replenishment ships are also military transports so I thought it would be important to have the additional capacity for the army or disaster relief although I concede that the third is not totally necessary.
 

1805

New Member
1 east coast, 1 west coast, 1 reserve / going through refit. The replenishment ships are also military transports so I thought it would be important to have the additional capacity for the army or disaster relief although I concede that the third is not totally necessary.
But your Absalon types have major logistics capabilities aswell. If you are normally looking to sustain only small deployments of say 600-1,000. For larger operations it would be better to take up specific logistics ships from trade or make available other pooled resource aka the UK Points. Also you do have those C17 & C130Js.

I agree on the SSN if the politics could be overcome, c3 but brought off the shelf and not local manufacture, to keep the cost down.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
As for the upcoming OPCs, it appears the USCG may not get a ship much better than a French OPC Gowind which run around USD 200 million each. The latest NSC Bertholfs are running around USD 400 million each, the first couple ran around USD 600 million each.
And why exactly does the USCG need a ship more capable then a SAM, & SSM and Helicopter equiped *Naval* warship?

Its a maritime police force, *not* a Navy.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
And why exactly does the USCG need a ship more capable then a SAM, & SSM and Helicopter equiped *Naval* warship?

Its a maritime police force, *not* a Navy.
True, but they're paying EuroFrigate prices for that OPV - which is puzzling.

If they're not carrying the sensors or weapons of a mid-level frigate, where's the money going?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Its a maritime police force, *not* a Navy.
yes and no :) (don't you love 2 way bets!)

The USCG has been engaged and participated in "deep blue" water exercises since 911. eg they now regularly deploy into the northern atlantic and the middle east to support anti-piracy patrols.... They are now embedded and regularly rotate into "normal" naval task forces

their role has started to change even though primarily they are not a maritime strike force in the traditional sense
 
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