Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[ASSAIL]

I thought that's what the USN has been using NATO for for the past 60 years

Sure have, but not in the Western Pacific, South China Sea and Indian Ocean.

These are the areas of strategic importance in this century and the US focus has shifted to align with ours (oz)

Differences in oceanography are critical.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Differences in oceanography are critical.

and remember that was one of the first and biggest mistakes kockums made and which had to be corrected by DSTO, Nautronix, PNV and the USN

 

[Tee_Centre_10]

and as usual, those are remotely able to correct the incoming idiocy will suck it in and shutup to comply with the policy of /ignore the comments and we'll ride it out attitude - and worse, they're not allowed to defend themselves

Which has got to make it hard for the submarine branch to attract and keep people, and submarine crew retention is something that has been discussed here several times.
Money can only do so much to overcome professional image and personal pride, something which is difficult when you feel misunderstood, misrepresented and even mismanaged and neglected. The Coles Review makes difficult reading.

 

[StoresBasher]

Which has got to make it hard for the submarine branch to attract and keep people, and submarine crew retention is something that has been discussed here several times.
Money can only do so much to overcome professional image and personal pride, something which is difficult when you feel misunderstood, misrepresented and even mismanaged and neglected. The Coles Review makes difficult reading.

The biggest problem for manning subs, is the current locating of their home port.
Mention the words subs and just about everyone I have talked to about them, says they jump on them if they were east based.

 

[aussienscale]

The biggest problem for manning subs, is the current locating of their home port.
Mention the words subs and just about everyone I have talked to about them, says they jump on them if they were east based.

And it was that way in the early 90's when I was still in, many of the guy's said they would be getting out or handing in their dolphin's when the transition to FBW took place, someone is still not listening

 

[Gordon Branch]

What is the problem with FBW?

And it was that way in the early 90's when I was still in, many of the guy's said they would be getting out or handing in their dolphin's when the transition to FBW took place, someone is still not listening

Does anyone else have a problem with this attitude from submariners? Does the Navy have a problem keeping the crews of surface ships based at HMAS STIRLING? Is there something wrong at STIRLING? STIRLING is the forward operating base of the submarine fleet and is the best place from which to operate given the significantly shorter distances to their primary areas of operation. In WW2 did the British and USN operate from Sydney? No; they used Fremantle and Brisbane.

I know Rockingham well; My mother lives there along with a large percentage of my relatives. It's a nice enough place. A fair bit of amenity and only a 25 minute ride on the train from the CBD of Perth. Does the feeling change once you cross the causeway?

The whole attitude smacks of "preciousness". Do they not like Western Australia because it is not Sydney? Would there be the same problem if the submarine squadron was based in Brisbane? Do we give our soldiers and airmen a choice of where their primary bases are? Of course not - they go where they are required. Or am I missing something?

Do we need to sell HMAS STIRLING better or make it a more acceptable?

I am sorry this is a bit of a ramble but I am confused about the whole issue.

 

[OpinionNoted]

The whole attitude smacks of "preciousness".

Its almost as if we australians are only comfortable huddled together on the eastern,south eastern seaboard and not all isolated way out there in the west.

 

[Equinox]

Does anyone else have a problem with this attitude from submariners? Does the Navy have a problem keeping the crews of surface ships based at HMAS STIRLING? Is there something wrong at STIRLING? STIRLING is the forward operating base of the submarine fleet and is the best place from which to operate given the significantly shorter distances to their primary areas of operation. In WW2 did the British and USN operate from Sydney? No; they used Fremantle and Brisbane.

I know Rockingham well; My mother lives there along with a large percentage of my relatives. It's a nice enough place. A fair bit of amenity and only a 25 minute ride on the train from the CBD of Perth. Does the feeling change once you cross the causeway?

The whole attitude smacks of "preciousness". Do they not like Western Australia because it is not Sydney? Would there be the same problem if the submarine squadron was based in Brisbane? Do we give our soldiers and airmen a choice of where their primary bases are? Of course not - they go where they are required. Or am I missing something?

Do we need to sell HMAS STIRLING better or make it a more acceptable?

I am sorry this is a bit of a ramble but I am confused about the whole issue.

The problem is that because most Australians live in the east, most members of the Navy are from the east. Meaning that most of their family is in the east. Further complicated if they have spouses/partners whose family live in the east. Surface combatants are fine (as far as I am aware) because if they are posted to a ship based in FBW, it's not permanent, chances are next time they'll be posted east (or some-such). For submariners, there is only one place they'll be posted for their career--West. Not a problem if their family is there, but if not? Then they are however many thousands of kilometres from them.

Next time I'd suggest you question why there is an issue before assuming it's a matter of the submariners having an attitude problem.

 

[Gordon Branch]

Next time I'd suggest you question why there is an issue before assuming it's a matter of the submariners having an attitude problem.

My mother and father were both West Australian. When my father joined the Army in 1959 he was posted to the East for 10 years before luckily getting one of the rare (in those days) postings in Perth. In those days the chances were he could go through his whole career without a "home" posting.

He spent 15 of his 20 years in the Army in the East.

He wasn't precious about his postings. He did his duty.

I will however acknowledge one major difference between the Army and the Navy. While you may be posted to a location with your family you may have to deploy with your ship on an extended cruise. This will leave your family in a strange place without a family network. (Although my father did do a tour of Vietnam while we lived in Victoria)

 

[Bonza]

My mother and father were both West Australian. When my father joined the Army in 1959 he was posted to the East for 10 years before luckily getting one of the rare (in those days) postings in Perth. In those days the chances were he could go through his whole career without a "home" posting.

He spent 15 of his 20 years in the Army in the East.

He wasn't precious about his postings. He did his duty.

Good for him. Now stop calling serving members of the RAN "precious".

 

[Gordon Branch]

Good for him. Now stop calling serving members of the RAN "precious".

Acknowledged

My apologies.

 

[ADMk2]

The whole attitude smacks of "preciousness".

Its almost as if we australians are only comfortable huddled together on the eastern,south eastern seaboard and not all isolated way out there in the west.

It's got nothing to do with "preciousness" but rather simple geography and world reality.

Our major population centres are in Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne. Consequently the greatest opportunities are available to people there.

The dispersal of major ADF elements into the remote parts of our Country was to do with politics, rather than strategic or military necessity.

The idea that serving members should just "suck it up" when these decisions are made to best suit members of parliament, rather than the interests of the military, let alone the interests of those members is a bit much to swallow guys...

 

[OpinionNoted]

Yeah but basing subs at hmas stirling is more military neccessity than a political whim.

The retention and crewing probs the subs have,do the west based surface fleet have the same problems?
And where do sub mariners who no longer wish to serve in subs go?
Do they transfer to other posts in the navy?,do they leave the adf?..if so .how many go get jobs in the mining sector?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Yeah but basing subs at hmas stirling is more military neccessity than a political whim.

The retention and crewing probs the subs have,do the west based surface fleet have the same problems?
And where do sub mariners who no longer wish to serve in subs go?
Do they transfer to other posts in the navy?,do they leave the adf?..if so .how many go get jobs in the mining sector?

lets get some perspective.

sub cycles are different to skimmer cycles
the job is different
the impact on family is different, there are known documented human factors and psychological differences
west based cycles have been known to be a problem ever since it was refocussed to the west - and its often family impact from partners that drives how people stay in the service - be they subs, skimmers, plane drivers, engineers, special forces, veggies etc..... its often family issues that drive retention issues

mining is still taking white and blue trade - irrespective of the bonuses its the quality of family life that has significant impact

the fact that the govt continues to not understand that its family impact that drives the bulk of the retention problems just shows how out to lunch they and some of the senior sirs are - and to be blunt, the senior sirs know it, but like all good uniforms they will not challenge the govt re its views in the open.

similar issues of service people rotating into HQJOC mirror the family issue. I know of bugger all people who enjoy their HQJOC postings. Cold miserable and a completely windowless environment (unless you're the 2 or 3 star)

when specials moved from Potts to B1 they had similar issues
we couldn't get people to go from darwin to tindal for love of money - thats despite getting extra tropical leave, subsidised govt accomodation, guaranteed flights home to a major city once per year etc....

failing to understand the impact on family life has been a consistently poor awareness trait by successive govts

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Yeah but basing subs at hmas stirling is more military neccessity than a political whim.

No it isn’t. Unless of course Australia is in a war at the moment that I failed to notice.

The peacetime rates of effort for submarine patrols are low enough to accommodate a week or two of extra transit if that actually allows the submarine fleet to be fully manned. Being a little bit closer to some (not all) of your operational areas doesn’t help so much if it means you have half the number of crews you need.

Australia faces no military threat that requires peacetime basing in operational areas. We aren’t the central front in West Germany during the Cold War with 50 Soviet Tank Divisions sitting at the border ready to go at 24 hours notice.

Defence of Australia is the biggest con job that has been foisted on the Australian defence community. It promotes all sorts of nonsense like this one.

 

[StoresBasher]

Many people simply do not want to go west, nor do they have to in this day and age.
I was offered the choice of Stirling or Waterhen, when I re joined 2 years ago.
At the time I was living in Rockingham with my sister, I chose Waterhen, not just because it was Sydney, but also career prospects and getting to sea faster.
It worked I spent 6 weeks ashore and have been at sea ever since, serving on 3 ships.

 

[hairyman]

I dont understand the attitude towards the West in this day and age.
There was an excellent book by Geoffrey Blainey called "The Tyranny of Distance" which explained a lot about the effects of Australia's isolation in the sailing ship days. The same applies today to W.A. However it should now no long apply, when 4 hours or less you can travei from Perth to the East Coast and be with the family.

On another note, my mothers parents, Grandma was born in Adelaide, Grandad was born in Melbourne, yet they married in Perth and had their first child over there. And this was in 1895. They then moved to Sydney. Distance obviously did not worry them.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I dont understand the attitude towards the West in this day and age.
There was an excellent book by Geoffrey Blainey called "The Tyranny of Distance" which explained a lot about the effects of Australia's isolation in the sailing ship days. The same applies today to W.A. However it should now no long apply, when 4 hours or less you can travei from Perth to the East Coast and be with the family.

On another note, my mothers parents, Grandma was born in Adelaide, Grandad was born in Melbourne, yet they married in Perth and had their first child over there. And this was in 1895. They then moved to Sydney. Distance obviously did not worry them.

I’m pretty sure your Grandparents weren’t making a daily commute between Adelaide, Melbourne and Perth back in the 19th century. Just like no one for anything less than $500k a year is going to be commuting daily between Perth and Sydney even if they can fly business class. You completely fail to understand the dynamics involved and the examples you give to ‘refute’ the tyranny of distance are laughable.

The point is if you become a submariner in the RAN you basically have to migrate to Greater Perth because that is where all the postings are. The RAN does not have enough people in it willing to do this and become submariners. Period. So what’s the solution? Make available submarine postings on the east coast in Sydney or elsewhere. There are several other complexities involved but understand this simple dynamic and you’re on the right path to getting your head around this problem.

 

[ADMk2]

I dont understand the attitude towards the West in this day and age.
There was an excellent book by Geoffrey Blainey called "The Tyranny of Distance" which explained a lot about the effects of Australia's isolation in the sailing ship days. The same applies today to W.A. However it should now no long apply, when 4 hours or less you can travei from Perth to the East Coast and be with the family.

On another note, my mothers parents, Grandma was born in Adelaide, Grandad was born in Melbourne, yet they married in Perth and had their first child over there. And this was in 1895. They then moved to Sydney. Distance obviously did not worry them.

No-one is saying that there's anything particularly wrong with Perth, but when you expect the bulk of your staff to move to the other side of the Country for their job away from their families, friends etc AND then give them an unfulfilling job to go with it, funnily enough, people don't find that an attractive career proposition and they leave and do other things.

That is what ADF has stated it is finding on it's sailor's exit interviews when they leave. ADF has acknowledged publicly it's a problem and our planned larger submarine fleet offers an excellent opportunity to address both aspects of those issues.

1. Location and possible posting options.

2. A fulfilling career on a platform that can actually do what the sailors signed up to do ALL the time. Not just whenever the limited amount of funding they actually get, means the boats can be made ready to go to sea...

 

[Volkodav]

before anyone gets wrapped around the axles about the technical merit of euro subs vs US or local builds lets focus on the salient requirements

its not about an emphasis on shooting and range
its about onboard power relative to the primary mission set

there's some deeeeeep hints in the last - and I'm not alluding to depth

The Australian must have read your post GF because today they published this

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

The thing filling the warehouse behind the PMB CEO is the battery for a single Collins class sub, this thing weighs 440 tonnes and is one of the things that makes the Collins so special. This battery is what you need to power the combat system, sensors as well as providing propulsive and hotel power, without it the missions conducted by the Collins would be impossible. To put it into perspective this thing is equal to about 1/3 the displacement of a Euro sub and takes upto two to three times the space they dedicate to their batteries.