F22 Deployment in Middle East

gazzzwp

Member
Keep guessing: US deploying fighter jets to the Gulf? — RT

Any reliable intelligence on this may be hard to find, but the key question must be is it simply to send a signal to the Iranians about the need to take the next round of talks seriously? I can't imagine that the US deploying it' newest prize weaponry is routine.

Very interesting development if true but I always take RT reports with a pinch of salt; as a news media the slant against US motives indicates that the are biased.
 
Keep guessing: US deploying fighter jets to the Gulf? — RT

Any reliable intelligence on this may be hard to find, but the key question must be is it simply to send a signal to the Iranians about the need to take the next round of talks seriously? I can't imagine that the US deploying it' newest prize weaponry is routine.

Very interesting development if true but I always take RT reports with a pinch of salt; as a news media the slant against US motives indicates that the are biased.
On ABC News the Blotter, all over the news, I guess I wonder why anyone would doubt that is true, seeing that Iran deploys very sophisticated Russian A2G, and the F-22 remains and will remain the only aircraft designed to operate in that Hostile environment, at present and in the near future. Are you sure we don't have that posted on our sight? You are right, there is no reliable intell right now, because of the sensitive nature of that mission, but they are being based at UAE.
 

surpreme

Member
I'm have to check into that myself. If this is true then the signs are there for an air assualt on Iran. Someone bound to see the F-22's in UAE if this is true they have to land on a air base somewhere. Until real evidence come in on this is just hearsay
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Very interesting development if true but I always take RT reports with a pinch of salt; as a news media the slant against US motives indicates that the are biased.
True, but the same can be said about CNN, BBC and Fox, especially their reporting towards the Middle East and Iran.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
On ABC News the Blotter, all over the news, I guess I wonder why anyone would doubt that is true, seeing that Iran deploys very sophisticated Russian A2G, and the F-22 remains and will remain the only aircraft designed to operate in that Hostile environment, at present and in the near future. Are you sure we don't have that posted on our sight? You are right, there is no reliable intell right now, because of the sensitive nature of that mission, but they are being based at UAE.
The Iranians most advanced surface to air missile capabilities are the Tor M1 short ranged system, with a maximum effective range of about 12k's and the Pantsyr S1 medium ranged SAM systems with (it may have these, reports differ) about 24k max range. It also claims to have acquired S-300 from Belarus, but as they've never shown them and tried to buy the same system from Russia, the claim seems unlikely.

It's other systems are older SA-2, SA3, SA-5, SA-6 and so on. These are the sorts of systems that performed so credibly in Libya last year...

If you think the F-22A is the only aircraft that can live in such an environment, you might ask yourself why it wasn't deployed to Libya last year?

You might also ask how much trouble the Israelis had with the reported Syrian Tor M1's in 2007, despite the complete lack of F-22A's present in the Israeli Air and Space force...

The biggest problem the Americans will have if they decide to hit Iran will be the hit the American public takes at the petrol bowser shortly thereafter. Something like this will cause the price of oil to skyrocket.
 
The Iranians most advanced surface to air missile capabilities are the Tor M1 short ranged system, with a maximum effective range of about 12k's and the Pantsyr S1 medium ranged SAM systems with (it may have these, reports differ) about 24k max range. It also claims to have acquired S-300 from Belarus, but as they've never shown them and tried to buy the same system from Russia, the claim seems unlikely.

It's other systems are older SA-2, SA3, SA-5, SA-6 and so on. These are the sorts of systems that performed so credibly in Libya last year...

If you think the F-22A is the only aircraft that can live in such an environment, you might ask yourself why it wasn't deployed to Libya last year?
So in your honest opinion, Iranian airspace is no tougher than Libya, and your stating for the record that you do not believe they have the S-300, or S-400? The fact that F-22s have been deployed into that arena leads me to believe that the people who know, suspect otherwise. I am certainly "not" stating that I know, and for the record I am "not stating that I favor an airstrike". I doubt many in the know favor that either. While the B-2 is quite likely capable, I would highly doubt they would risk it in that environment due to the limited numbers available, again just IMHO. Just noting for the record that the F-22 is the most capable tool for the job.
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
So in your honest opinion, Iranian airspace is no tougher than Libya, and your stating for the record that you do not believe they have the S-300, or S-400? The fact that F-22s have been deployed into that arena leads me to believe that the people who know, suspect otherwise. I am certainly "not" stating that I know, and for the record I am "not stating that I favor an airstrike". I doubt many in the know favor that either. While the B-2 is quite likely capable, I would highly doubt they would risk it in that environment due to the limited numbers available, again just IMHO. Just noting for the record that the F-22 is the most capable tool for the job.
At present the S-400 SAM is the most advanced SAM system Russia fields, and to date none have been exported. Various versions of the S-300 have been exported, but despite an Iranian order and IOC claims by Iran, there have been signs that Russia has yet to fufill the order. IIRC there was an Iranian "S-300" which made an appearance at a military parade, coinciding with an announcement from Iran that they had the S-300 and a local version of it entering production. As I recall, the picture was of a vehicle which resembled a TEL, minus the erector and the missile tubes most closely resembled a series of oil barrels which had been welded together.

As such, I doubt the Iranian IADS would present much of a hindrance to the USAF. There of course would be the potential for equipment loss and casualties, but IMO sufficient to prevent targets from being hit. What might create a greater challenge would be distances involved between bases and targets of tactical (vs. strategic) aircraft, as well as the potential missile and/or mine threat. And of course the impact on the world petroleum market should some sort of engagement occur in the Mideast/Gulf Region.

-Cheers
 
Air to ground? Where is the threat that necessitates F22's?
Sorry Marc, it was late. I of course meant AA. While they have the 2 from Belarus, and 2 more from an unnamed source, it is questionable that they have any more. I had read a briefing from another source of Israeli wargaming, and noted that they anticipated casualties, I can't for the life of me remember the source, it seems as I recall that it was from an Israeli reporter on another defense blog. I do believe they have a credible AA capability and a desire to defend their airspace, and as Tod stated, there is certainly the potential for losses.

On a sobering note , Gen Mike Hostage, of Air Combat Command, at Langley AFB, Virginia commented that there are a small number of F-22 pilots who desire to be reassigned due to the continuing troubles with the life support systems of the F-22, which has focused on the OBOGS. The emergency O2 system was eliminated because of weight concerns, and replaced by a manual system, which is currently being upgraded as a result of the loss of Capt Haney and his aircraft, to a larger more easily accessable system. This from AP 4/30/12.
 
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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
So in your honest opinion, Iranian airspace is no tougher than Libya, and your stating for the record that you do not believe they have the S-300, or S-400? The fact that F-22s have been deployed into that arena leads me to believe that the people who know, suspect otherwise. I am certainly "not" stating that I know, and for the record I am "not stating that I favor an airstrike". I doubt many in the know favor that either. While the B-2 is quite likely capable, I would highly doubt they would risk it in that environment due to the limited numbers available, again just IMHO. Just noting for the record that the F-22 is the most capable tool for the job.
Correct, though I wouldn't phrase it like that. I'd suggest the US would have no more difficulty completely dominating the Iranian IADS than it had in Libya. It's degree of over-match IS so great.

Iran definitely doesn't have S-400 and it's a dubious account that they even have S-300. Why wouldn't they do some muscle flexing of their own if they did? They made a shoddy attempt to a few years back, but leaked photos confirmed these were simply 44 gallon drums painted and welded to imitate S-300 systems, causing Iran much embarassment when the hoax was revealed. I'd suggest with the on-going threats against them, they'd be very keen to reveal such a system in advance. It's not going to present any sort of surprise in the battlefield, it's hardly an "ambush" type system, so there's little to be gained from concealing the presence of such a system.

The problem with Iran is not could they be taken down, but what it might do in response to such an attack. It would be almost completely unable to fend off the attacks of the Western forces, however it has the capability to strike back assymetrically through the use of ballistic missiles and large numbers of cruise missiles and fast attack craft in the Persian Gulf, it could employ at least in the early stages of such a conflict.

It might well achieve some minor tactical success through these means, but will still cop a hammering nonetheless. Again as I've said previously, the loss of a single Western aircraft seems to amount to "enemy" success nowadays and the onslaught and complete destruction of every major military asset employed by the "enemy" is just taken as a matter of course. The loss or severe damage of a single warship would also be greatly trumpeted as a "strategic" success, yet the obliteration of Iran's capability wouldn't matter as much, to the press and some of the more hysterical elements of the defence debate.

As to your assertation that F-22 is the "right" tool for the job, I very much doubt it. What the main targets would be in such a conflict , are those relating to the Iranian nuclear program. The F-22 is going to play a minimal role in engaging such targets.

Aircraft that will be employing heavy penetrating weapons such as the F-15E, Super Hornet, B-2, B-52 and B-1B, along with the usual standoff weapon barrage, standoff jamming and advanced SEAD capabilities, will carry the day.

The F-22A may have a minor air to air role and some DEAD duties, but these would be peripheral to the main objectives of the strike, if we assume such a conflict is a strike aimed at halting Iran's nuclear program.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Keep guessing: US deploying fighter jets to the Gulf? — RT

Any reliable intelligence on this may be hard to find, but the key question must be is it simply to send a signal to the Iranians about the need to take the next round of talks seriously? I can't imagine that the US deploying it' newest prize weaponry is routine.
It's not routine, but I believe so far it's no more than sending signal to Teheran. Obama administration so far does not show that they are keen to invade Iran, or involve with military action there.

Even without F-22, US air power, can still achieve domination on Iranian air spaces within few days at the latest. I believe it's also a signal to Israel that they should not take any independent military action to Iran without Washington permissions.
 

rcsribby

New Member
Correct, though I wouldn't phrase it like that. I'd suggest the US would have no more difficulty completely dominating the Iranian IADS than it had in Libya. It's degree of over-match IS so great.

Iran definitely doesn't have S-400 and it's a dubious account that they even have S-300. Why wouldn't they do some muscle flexing of their own if they did? They made a shoddy attempt to a few years back, but leaked photos confirmed these were simply 44 gallon drums painted and welded to imitate S-300 systems, causing Iran much embarassment when the hoax was revealed. I'd suggest with the on-going threats against them, they'd be very keen to reveal such a system in advance. It's not going to present any sort of surprise in the battlefield, it's hardly an "ambush" type system, so there's little to be gained from concealing the presence of such a system.

The problem with Iran is not could they be taken down, but what it might do in response to such an attack. It would be almost completely unable to fend off the attacks of the Western forces, however it has the capability to strike back assymetrically through the use of ballistic missiles and large numbers of cruise missiles and fast attack craft in the Persian Gulf, it could employ at least in the early stages of such a conflict.

It might well achieve some minor tactical success through these means, but will still cop a hammering nonetheless. Again as I've said previously, the loss of a single Western aircraft seems to amount to "enemy" success nowadays and the onslaught and complete destruction of every major military asset employed by the "enemy" is just taken as a matter of course. The loss or severe damage of a single warship would also be greatly trumpeted as a "strategic" success, yet the obliteration of Iran's capability wouldn't matter as much, to the press and some of the more hysterical elements of the defence debate.

As to your assertation that F-22 is the "right" tool for the job, I very much doubt it. What the main targets would be in such a conflict , are those relating to the Iranian nuclear program. The F-22 is going to play a minimal role in engaging such targets.

Aircraft that will be employing heavy penetrating weapons such as the F-15E, Super Hornet, B-2, B-52 and B-1B, along with the usual standoff weapon barrage, standoff jamming and advanced SEAD capabilities, will carry the day.

The F-22A may have a minor air to air role and some DEAD duties, but these would be peripheral to the main objectives of the strike, if we assume such a conflict is a strike aimed at halting Iran's nuclear program.
The F-22 in it's latest block upgrades has a great potential for being more successful than the F-117 (in the air-ground role) , the F-22 can carry two 1,000 lb JDAMs or eight SDBs plus two AIM-120s and two AIM-9s in the side bays. While the USA does not need to forward deploy the B-2s the F-22 has much shorter " legs" and has to be in theater in order to play a roll in such a conflict if it were to take place. We might have them there to "back up" any Israeli move against Iran. I am sure that there a lot more moves being made other than the F-22's forward deployment, such as B-2s being put on stand-by , any stealth UAVs or UCAVs being staged as well as Spec-ops being brought in , those assets are easier to mask than deploying F-22s.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The F-22 in it's latest block upgrades has a great potential for being more successful than the F-117 (in the air-ground role) , the F-22 can carry two 1,000 lb JDAMs or eight SDBs plus two AIM-120s and two AIM-9s in the side bays. While the USA does not need to forward deploy the B-2s the F-22 has much shorter " legs" and has to be in theater in order to play a roll in such a conflict if it were to take place. We might have them there to "back up" any Israeli move against Iran. I am sure that there a lot more moves being made other than the F-22's forward deployment, such as B-2s being put on stand-by , any stealth UAVs or UCAVs being staged as well as Spec-ops being brought in , those assets are easier to mask than deploying F-22s.
Yes the F-22 can carry a pair of 1000lbs JDAM's or 8x SDB's. What it can't carry are the 2000lbs JDAM's with BLU-109 or BLU-116 penetrating warheads that are going to be needed to penetrate heavily fortified and hardened positions, let alone the GBU-28 type weapons that are going to be needed to go truly deep into the ground after the targets that are of main interest, notably Iran's nuclear facilities.

That's why the F-22A for all the love certain adherents have for it, will have nothing more than a sideline gig at best in such an operation. It may get the chance to shoot down a couple of 35 year old Tomcats or 30 year old MiG-29's, 40 year old F-4's or 45 year old F-5's and it may drop an SDB or 2 on a SAM site, but the main aim of such a mission (if it occurs) will be to destroy the nuclear facilities.

A few shot down F-4's and MiG-29's may excite some people. That ain't the mission though...

F-15E's, F-16C's, Hornets, Super Hornets and the heavy bombers will be carrying the strike load to actually achieve the mission, as usual...
 

rjmaz1

New Member
Even without F-22, US air power, can still achieve domination on Iranian air spaces within few days at the latest.
We might have them there to "back up" any Israeli move against Iran.
That's why the F-22A for all the love certain adherents have for it, will have nothing more than a sideline gig at best in such an operation.
What are you guys smoking?

The F-22's main role in the conflict would be to detect and shoot down Irans short and medium ranged cruise/scud missiles in the boost phase after they are launched in retaliation.

No other aircraft has the stealth to stay close enough and the speed to get into a launch position to perform this mission.
 

colay

New Member
IMO people are reading too much into this deployment. Same thing several mnths back when 3 CVNs just happened to be in the same proximity to one another as part of their regular patrol cycles.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
What are you guys smoking?

The F-22's main role in the conflict would be to detect and shoot down Irans short and medium ranged cruise/scud missiles in the boost phase after they are launched in retaliation.

No other aircraft has the stealth to stay close enough and the speed to get into a launch position to perform this mission.
"We're" smoking? Aha...

If the F-22 is capable of this, then why are NCADE and such systems being developed? (NCADE isn't being designed for F-22A either...)

The USA had total air dominance over Iraq during GW1, F-15C's and F-15E's roamed at will over the Country, F-15's have every bit as much speed as an F-22A and yet they were clearly unable to intercept Scud missiles, despite the fact they were armed (in the later stages) with the same weapons - AMRAAM and AIM-9M.

I think you're getting just a tad carried away here. Have you got a single source that says F-22 has trained let alone practiced such a mission?
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The F-22 was once earmarked for a cruise missile intercept role from flank positions - for counter-stealth - in combination with the then-planned E-10 AESA-equipped new AWACS. This was publicized by both the USAF and Lockheed. Can't find it right now, but that was in some Aviation Week article by Dave Fulghum back in 2004 or so.

Scuds and other BMs are of course an entirely different ballpark. However note that NCADE (and we're primarily talking about the network-centric intercept mode, not the fluff kill vehicle it comes with) wasn't given the go-ahead until after the E-10 was cancelled.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
"We're" smoking? Aha...
Yes you're smoking..

A primary mission for the F/A-22 is slated to be cruise missile interception well behind enemy lines. "A cruise missile has stealth in only one direction--straight ahead," says Lt. Col. Mike Stapleton, operations officer for the 43rd Fighter Sqdn. The F-22s would operate in an extended picket line so they can look at cruise missiles to either side of their patrol area from a beam aspect where the missile is not low-observable.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/f-22-secrets-revealed-4021/
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
This is your quote verbatim:

The F-22's main role in the conflict would be to detect and shoot down Irans short and medium ranged cruise/scud missiles in the boost phase after they are launched in retaliation.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/f-22-secrets-revealed-4021/

This is the link to another thread to justify your argument mate, shooting down cruise missiles is one thing BM & Scuds thats totally different try this link:

Exclusive: What nobody else will tell you about the U.S. F-22 stealth fighters deployed near Iran « The Aviationist

A simple serach found the above article that contradicts your asertion ref the F22 capability to conduct said engagements with BM/Cruise missiles, If you want to remain on this site then you need to lift your game.
 
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