Probably the same as why the British have only really picked it up again for recent wars; the Sterling was in service for a long, long time - they probably still are - and was a well respected, proven and reliable weapon so much so that tactics were virtually built around it, something that is common across all pieces of military technology which is why many old pieces are able to continue in service for so long. The role they fill is built around them and not-vice versa.
Shotguns still in widespread military service ?
- Thread starter Eeshaan
- Start date
Actually it is fairly common for a good cartridge case to be reloaded that many times. It depends on the cartridge, the casing manufacturer, the load, and in some cases the chamber design.
But are you saying he using 50 cal BMG brass in a shotgun? This would take a custom built weapon, because shotgun shells are rimmed, and the 50 cal is rimless.
My service rifle was the M16 and I did not receive any training on any form of shotgun shooting. The only experience I had was when I fired a box of 12 gauge shells at a private range while visiting the US.
All I can say is that, for someone who is not heavy-built, a 12-gauge does present some challenge with its recoil. It is great fun and if I can own firearms, a 12-gauge pump-action would top my list of must-haves.
However...
A pump-action have the disadvantage of short cycling if you're:
- not a seasoned shooter
- in confined spaces
- in prone position
IMO an auto-loading shotgun, box mag feed, is the only acceptable combat shotgun.
All I can say is that, for someone who is not heavy-built, a 12-gauge does present some challenge with its recoil. It is great fun and if I can own firearms, a 12-gauge pump-action would top my list of must-haves.
However...
A pump-action have the disadvantage of short cycling if you're:
- not a seasoned shooter
- in confined spaces
- in prone position
IMO an auto-loading shotgun, box mag feed, is the only acceptable combat shotgun.
You should try this trick then... Double barrel side by side twin trigger shotgun (english Hollis) - touched off both barrels at once when I was 12. Just about popped all the rivets in my shoulder - certainly put me on my arse. Good thing the old man was there to save his favourite gun from hitting the ground. However I was a tad dissapointed that he also didn't see fit to save me the ignimony of being in the mud.
India had converted many old Enfield Mk4's into single shot .410 shotguns for crowd control. Anyone know if they are still using them? I know several have appeared on the collectors market.
Not exactly military, but my grandfather had an 8 gauge "Goose" gun. It had a solid brass shell and am pretty sure it could bring down low flying aircraft. I think these are now classed as artillery and illegal to manufacture.
Not exactly military, but my grandfather had an 8 gauge "Goose" gun. It had a solid brass shell and am pretty sure it could bring down low flying aircraft. I think these are now classed as artillery and illegal to manufacture.
All shotgun sizes have pretty much the same velocity and for a given shot size the nearly the same ballistics. The difference is in the quantity of shot and hence the density of the pattern.
Shotguns larger than 10 gauge fell out of use with the invention of the shotgun shell and quick firing (pump and lever action) shotguns which allowed a series of rapid shots to produce a superior effect. The 8 gauge’s weight and heavy recoil made it too slow getting back on target as well as too punishing for rapid fire.
There were shotguns larger than 8 gauge for hunting water birds, 4 gauge was popular, called punt guns because they were mounted fixed in the bow of a small one man boat called a ‘punt’ and aimed by pointing the boat at a feeding flock and seeing how many you could get. They were all basically small single shot cannon loaded with canister. These are now illegal for sport hunting, though I believe still used in a few areas for pot hunting.
the road runner
Active Member
Yep he is a fitter n turner by trade, he cuts the 50 cal brass down to size ,re sizes the primer holes,and re rims the brass with his die set.Im new to this so still trying to grasp his techniques.
He uses slow powders like AR2218.He was saying the powder burns in the "barrel" not the "chamber",so to give a "push" out the barrel and not a "hard shove" like from a normal 12G.
He uses a savage 212 with a 24 inch barrel that has been tweaked,but he recons the Browning A-Bolt are the holey grail for rifled shotguns.This is of course not mil spec but hunting rifles.Alot of hunters in north america swear by them for big game.
Has he used a chronograph to see what the muzzle velocity is?
Is the barrel the standard lenght?
Just curious.
the road runner
Active Member
He uses a 24 inch barrel(smallest he would recommend is 22 inch) ,and has chronograph it @ 1900-2100 fps depending on the powder/projectile he uses.He uses 700gr(lightest load) to 1200gr(heaviest) projectiles.
If he purchase Hornady SSG 300 Grain sabot round he gets close to 1900 fps.(plastic case)
He has plans and dimensions of the 50 cal brass he re sizes if you like i will try and get a drawing and post it.Just bare with me he has gone away for work.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HuVkXLreWE&feature=related"]12 Gauge Foster Slug in Ballistic Gel - YouTube[/nomedia]
These are hollow based slugs and not solids.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZaK7D4XVo8"]50 BMG from a 12 Gauge Shotgun - YouTube[/nomedia]
Found these guys who use a 50 cal in a shotty 0.o
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the road runner
Active Member
View attachment 5358
This is the info he sent me,hope it helps.
What he dose is change the base of the 50 cal round.He mills off the "rimless base," and threads the base of the case,to make a new "12 G rimmed base"
Basically a "rimless" to "rimmed" replacement. The original 50 cal primer hole is retained.
Used brass(50 cal) is hard to come by and expensive. The Mil spec brass is made to a higher standard than Hunting brass.So this is what he favours.
This is the info he sent me,hope it helps.
What he dose is change the base of the 50 cal round.He mills off the "rimless base," and threads the base of the case,to make a new "12 G rimmed base"
Basically a "rimless" to "rimmed" replacement. The original 50 cal primer hole is retained.
Used brass(50 cal) is hard to come by and expensive. The Mil spec brass is made to a higher standard than Hunting brass.So this is what he favours.
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Hey guys...there have been many innovative developments in shotguns which have been kept under wraps. What about a recoilless magazine fed shotgun. Fired a prototype about 20 years. Bloke who built it put in for patent only for the parent to be handed to royal ordinance under defence of the realm statute.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #53
Haha no. Absoluely not true, unless you're talking about some experimental prototype technology. That kind of stuff is only true in videogames or movies. The above 2 shotguns fire the usual 12-gauge pellet or slug rounds...
the road runner
Active Member
You may mean Dragon Breath 12G rounds.They are not solid shot ,but Zirconiam pellets.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwhCygmhbCg&feature=related"]12 Gauge Dragon's Breath AT NIGHT!- Smarter Every Day 2 - YouTube[/nomedia]
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #55
I was wondering, what is the ideal combat payload for shotguns. I.e. a balance between stopping power, penetration, pellet numbers & spread and recoil ( which I think is the most important ).
If given a choice between 00 buck, No.1, No.4 or slug, or anything else, which would you choose for in a practical combat environment in harsh weather and conditions (like Afghanistan, Iraq, on a ship off the coast of Somalia etc.) ?
Also, as something that you would want to own at home as well as in the field, would you prefer the durability of a pump-action or the speed of a semi-auto shotgun ( like the Benelli M4 ).
If given a choice between 00 buck, No.1, No.4 or slug, or anything else, which would you choose for in a practical combat environment in harsh weather and conditions (like Afghanistan, Iraq, on a ship off the coast of Somalia etc.) ?
Also, as something that you would want to own at home as well as in the field, would you prefer the durability of a pump-action or the speed of a semi-auto shotgun ( like the Benelli M4 ).
The shotgun is a short range combat weapon. A piece of 00 buck is about equivalent to a 9mm pistol round. There are typically 11 to12 00buck in a 12 gauge magnum round. No.1 and No.4 are birdshot, totally ineffective at combat ranges unless you hit someone in the eye. Unless you mean #1 buck and #4 buck, the later of which is about the effect of a .22 LR, though there are around 30 in each 12 gauge round. Slugs have the most penetration and range, and can be devastating if they hit bone.
Up to 50 yards use slug or 00 buck. For anything over 50 yards slug is your best choice. Over 75 yards it is probably your only choice. Over 100 yards you are probably SOL. If you expect to be in a combat situation at ranges over 50 yards an assault rifle is almost always a better choice. For home defense the range is generally under 10 yards.
If recoil is a problem, drop the size from 12 gauge to 16 gauge.
Semi-auto is best for combat. For home defense there are arguments both ways, but I prefer pump because you don’t have to move your hands out of position to cock it, and you don’t want to stumble around in the dark with one-up-the-spout.
Also, folding stocks are for combat only. For home defense a regular stock is better for bracing the weapon against something while firing or when you are forced into hand to hand. And it is easier to convince the judge and jury that it is a hunting weapon, if necessary.
Janis.Briedis
New Member
The fact that US army has ordered and is using underbarrel shotgun ensures that the use of shotgun will be seen in modern war history as well. Name of weapon -M26 (wikipedia has some info about it)
With the combination of M4 and M26, one can breach the doors with underbarrel weapon and continue the operation with the primary weapon M4.
Or - if the M4 has jammed, you have the second weapon as a back-up.
Additional thing which needs to be taken into consideration is that today there are very huge range of ammunition to choose from, covering all needs when we speak about short distances - starting from less lethal rounds for crowd control to solid steel slugs able to penetrate bullet proof vests up to NIJ 4.
With the combination of M4 and M26, one can breach the doors with underbarrel weapon and continue the operation with the primary weapon M4.
Or - if the M4 has jammed, you have the second weapon as a back-up.
Additional thing which needs to be taken into consideration is that today there are very huge range of ammunition to choose from, covering all needs when we speak about short distances - starting from less lethal rounds for crowd control to solid steel slugs able to penetrate bullet proof vests up to NIJ 4.
Goosecooker
New Member
When I was in Iraq back in 2009, we used shotguns as a secondary weapon for gunners in the turrets of our gun trucks. They were 12 Guage with buck shot, but I forget what model. We also used them for ECP personnel and for the guards using less than lethal munitions inside the theater interment facilities with things like fin stabalized rubber bullets.