I'd sooner buy F35C and have done with it - better strike capability, will come cleared for a lot of weapons we use or would want to use and is, when comparing full rate production prices, *cheaper* than Tiffy. I don't think we need any more Typhoon to be honest - it's the "dropping bombs and blowing stuff up" aspects we're short of.
Royal Air Force [RAF] discussions and updates
- Thread starter neil
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I'd sooner buy F35C and have done with it - better strike capability, will come cleared for a lot of weapons we use or would want to use and is, when comparing full rate production prices, *cheaper* than Tiffy. I don't think we need any more Typhoon to be honest - it's the "dropping bombs and blowing stuff up" aspects we're short of.
the concerned
Active Member
yeah but a 2 seater strike optimised variant of the typhoon would be a hell of a plane. I know its alot of money but so is keeping the tornados flying for another 10 yrs especially with the next upgrade just think its a option.
the concerned
Active Member
this is one area that i disagree with the US i still think a second pair of eyes is better than any technology out there. I heard that Israel is studying a 2 seater jsf we should look into it ourselves.
Israel studying a 2-seater JSF? Well, since the US is strongly opposed to building any customised versions (for support reasons: it doesn't want to be supporting any national variants, & won't let buyers do all the support themselves), has no intention of building a 2-seater, & Israel can't build JSFs itself, that's very odd indeed.
Even if the Israelis could persuade the US to build some, they'd cost a stupendous amount, since only a few would be built. Israel would probably have to cover the full cost of development, which would gobble up a lot of the US aid it finds useful for other things.
Where did you hear this?
Even if the Israelis could persuade the US to build some, they'd cost a stupendous amount, since only a few would be built. Israel would probably have to cover the full cost of development, which would gobble up a lot of the US aid it finds useful for other things.
Where did you hear this?
the concerned
Active Member
it was mentioned in AFm . i still say in some missions a second pair of eyes is helpful like CAS/FAC surely the jsf will be called upon to cover these missions aswell.I personally think the jsf although a very good plane will not be able to match the f-15e/f-18f for SA
the road runner
Active Member
You need to read up on DAS in the JSF , it may change your point of view
Basically a big sensor bubble around the plane
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fm5vfGW5RY"]F-35 JSF Distributed Aperture System (EO DAS) - YouTube[/nomedia]
I'm assuming that you're joking...
the growler, for all its positives does not remotely have the same SA as a JSF.
they are chalk and cheese, as much as a growler is chalk and cheese to a vanilla shornet
you do realise that the SA picture is not just about the shooters... the bulk of the SA picture is fed from externals..
a pair of eyes is limited to maybe give or take 12k.
eg would you rather have 500 pairs of eyes in a fixed location or an E2D?
Well, we've happily been doing CAS on single seaters for ages - Gr9, Jaguar, the A10, F16, the list goes on. I've seen mocked up drawings of a twin seat F35 on various fan sites but I think that's as far as that goes.
I'm not saying it'll never happen but it's not happening at the moment - neither is a twin seat strike Typhoon,
Ian
the concerned
Active Member
do you not think that not developing a 2 seater typhoon is what could have damaged its export prospect's.take a look at its rival the rafale the french realised even they needed a 2 seater and in numerous competitions the rafale was considered more mature a design .
Tee_Centre_10
Member
I would think that immature design, lack of multi-role ability, and very high, uncompetitive pricing* would have been factors in having few sales.
The first two has been worked out (after glacial development and many fighter competitions have been lost) but not much can be done about the last in the face of cheaper (eg. F-16 B52+) and better (F-35A) alternatives.
I'm not sure how you can link the Rafale being considered the more mature option with having it having a combat-capable 2-seat version. A combat-capable 2-seat Typhoon could be developed if it was desired.
As for a fighter type not having a combat-capable 2-seat version (or no 2-seat version at all, i.e. F-35), I would argue that with LIFT aircraft simulating the handling qualities and cockpits of high performance fighters, the fighters themselves having largely benign handling qualities (thanks to FBW), and with the current generation of high fidelity simulators, there is less (no??) need for a dedicated training version.
And although there are great benefits to having a WSO for strike missions, I would argue that with new cockpit data management techniques and the ability to receive and hand off sensor and targeting data to other platforms, the days of WSOs might be numbered. It seems that the trends are against retaining WSOs.
* Very high, uncompetitive pricing. Sorry, but it needs to be written twice!
The US has sold 4,500 F16's of various blocks without any trouble, plus more than a few F18's - all single seat designs barring the small amount of F18G's.
If Tiffy had arrived in the early 1990's and if the air to ground side had proceeded at a more rapid pace it might have done well. Pricing hasn't helped it mind.
the concerned
Active Member
just wondering how much is it going to cost to upgrade tornado one more time and maintain it for another 10 yrs how many typhoons could we buy for that price
F-16B and D and the F-18B/D/F are all fully combat capable two seaters that have been widely deployed by the US and exported. The RMAF only operates two seat Hornets and all of the RAAF's Super Hornets two seaters.
the concerned
Active Member
Aren't the latest f-16's also mainly 2 seaters like f-16i/f-16f/plus isn't the su-30 a 2 seater india's version of the pak-fa will be a 2 seater.Also take a look at the different variants of f-15e's they are all 2 seaters .maybe in the air superiority role a single seater is ok but for strike missions i still think a 2 seater is more desirable
No, they're not mostly two-seaters. The only variant which is exclusively two-seater is the F-16I for Israel, which is akin to the Mirage 2000D, a two-seat strike version of a single seat fighter.
Every other F-16 version is single-seat as standard, with a two-seat trainer, & every other customer has bought mostly single-seaters.
Every other F-16 version is single-seat as standard, with a two-seat trainer, & every other customer has bought mostly single-seaters.
A necessary and polite request
Can we get a little pause before posting?
Some of the questions coming in could be covered by doing some basic research first.
There is no shortage of people who will be willing to help, but when basic questions get asked where some research/trawling could have occurred first - well at that point irritation levels go up
some consideration and energy exercised prior to posting will start pulling back perceptions of laziness and accompanying frustration
This is not intended to kill the quality and momentum of the thread - but its necessary if the intent is to maintain some quality control
post edit
see Swerves response below as an example of where basic research would have yielded answers before the question was posted
Can we get a little pause before posting?
Some of the questions coming in could be covered by doing some basic research first.
There is no shortage of people who will be willing to help, but when basic questions get asked where some research/trawling could have occurred first - well at that point irritation levels go up
some consideration and energy exercised prior to posting will start pulling back perceptions of laziness and accompanying frustration
This is not intended to kill the quality and momentum of the thread - but its necessary if the intent is to maintain some quality control
post edit
see Swerves response below as an example of where basic research would have yielded answers before the question was posted
Back in the late 70's early 80's a Phantom pilot of note who's name I shamefacedly admit I cannot now recall said "Replace my RIO with a machine? Hell, yeah, when I can shout "switch to Winders" and the machine can do that..."
We're at that point and beyond.
So, simple question - you're doing deep strike and interdiction. Guy in back or say, another 500 lbs of fuel? That's what that person in the back (or "Hostage number 2") represents, once you've added the weight of the ejection seat and sundries to his own weight.
With direct reference to the question, should we buy more Typhoon, my answer would be "No" - F35 will be a bit cheaper, a lot more capable and still have a large UK workshare.
Funding a twin seat strike version of Tiffy? No thanks. Cockpit automation has reached the situation where even in the Tornado, 80% of the mission could be flown from the front seat and in the case of Typhoon, the navigation, weapons release and countermeasures are all well within the realms of modern computing standards.
Better yet, buy F35 and just have a quieter life with less people shooting at you (if they can't see you and you have a much better chance of seeing them first, it's easier to conduct and prosecute strike missions)
And that's one of the things I'm looking forward to when F-35 is in squadron service and performing the exercises that legacy aircraft now are undertaking.
For exercise and civilian airspace transit purposes the F-35's will be quite "noisy" in terms of signature. It's going to be great to see the frustration that going to full wartime LO causes amongst those who thought they had a handle on the F-35's signature...
It happens a bit now with F-22, but when it happens across entire force packages, well those who've chosen to stick with legacy non-LO aircraft are going to find themselves a tad irrelevant...
Oh, God, yes, I'd forgotten about that - we'll see F35's trundling around with luneberg lenses fitted and have to listen to the tin foil hat brigade announcing "well, the local civilian air traffic radar was tracking it from 100 miles away" ad nauseam. Damn..always something old getting dragged back up.