The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[spsun100001]

No, you don't seem to be reading other peoples.

The baseline of mine (and others) on this forum i believe, is whilst in a perfect fully funded world it's perfectly fine to go "well it should have this and this and this" etc but this ISN'T a perfect world, some things get funded whereas others don't.

If you read carefully i've not said that T45 shouldn't have Stingray tubes at all, i've said that at the current time there are OTHER things that should be funded first as we can't all just hand in a list and say "get it", it doesn't work like that.

Why you're determined to argue that T45 should have torp tubes when i've already said i agree with you is mind boggling. All i'm trying to get across is that if there was some chance a T45 got involved where a real and credible submarine threat would be in the area, she would be operating as part of a much larger battlegroup where ASW assets are numerous. Because of this, whilst Stingray is a decent extra notch on her truncheon, the funding isn't as . . . neccesary . . as a few others.

One point i should raise, if an enemy submarine has managed to get close enough to a ship to be targeted or intimidated by Stingray then things have already gone pretty badly wrong.

So we're agreed that the capability makes sense and your only objection is funding?

In that case see the other posts where I was challenged about funding and I suggested the £840m in aid that we will be giving to India over the next three years. If they can afford £6 billion for Rafale's then they can do without our aid money which would provide a sum that I'd think is sufficient to fully equip the T45 with all of the systems that have been discussed.

I'd agree with you about the subs proximity but with T45 having to carry Lynx (which lacks a dipping sonar) rather than Merlin the chance of a sub getting close to the ship is much higher.

I also agree that we will usually be in a coalition with nations that will have fitted these capabilities to their ships. But usually isn't always which is why I think pretty much every other western nation has the sense to fit their AAW warships with these capabilities.

 

[RobWilliams]

So we're agreed that the capability makes sense and your only objection is funding?

In that case see the other posts where I was challenged about funding and I suggested the £840m in aid that we will be giving to India over the next three years. If they can afford £6 billion for Rafale's then they can do without our aid money which would provide a sum that I'd think is sufficient to fully equip the T45 with all of the systems that have been discussed.

I'd agree with you about the subs proximity but with T45 having to carry Lynx (which lacks a dipping sonar) rather than Merlin the chance of a sub getting close to the ship is much higher.

I also agree that we will usually be in a coalition with nations that will have fitted these capabilities to their ships. But usually isn't always which is why I think pretty much every other western nation has the sense to fit their AAW warships with these capabilities.

The debate about if India should recieve the aid or not is a moot point IMO, we've got to deal with the funding we know we have available rather than funding we could (but don't) have.

True, loads of navies do have these capabilities but from my perspective they haven't gone through such a massive regeneration like the RN is/will be going through in the coming years and as such money for said upgrades is more secure andd available for other navies.

 

[spsun100001]

The debate about if India should recieve the aid or not is a moot point IMO, we've got to deal with the funding we know we have available rather than funding we could (but don't) have.

True, loads of navies do have these capabilities but from my perspective they haven't gone through such a massive regeneration like the RN is/will be going through in the coming years and as such money for said upgrades is more secure andd available for other navies.

The Indian aid funding is not moot. As you said, people have been stating that there is just no money for these capabilities on the T45. There is. It's just that our government chooses to spend it on aid for a country buying £6 billion of fighters which has its own foreign aid program and a space program. Lord West, the former Security Minister, was arguing exactly this point in the press so it is a perfectly valid debate in the context of whether our own defence should have priority.

As to the aid money being an agreement, I don't think they would sue is if we didn't pay given than the Indian Finance Minister said the amount was "peanuts" and that they "did not require" it.

 

[RobWilliams]

The Indian aid funding is not moot. As you said, people have been stating that there is just no money for these capabilities on the T45. There is. It's just that our government chooses to spend it on aid for a country buying £6 billion of fighters which has its own foreign aid program and a space program. Lord West, the former Security Minister, was arguing exactly this point in the press so it is a perfectly valid debate in the context of whether our own defence should have priority.

As to the aid money being an agreement, I don't think they would sue is if we didn't pay given than the Indian Finance Minister said the amount was "peanuts" and that they "did not require" it.

I didn't really word it properly, i meant it was moot in the sense that it's all well and good to say what money we should be getting but in reality we should be dealing with the money we actually have access too.

Part of me also suspects that if aid wasn't being given to India, it wouldn't go towards our own defence budget.

 

[spsun100001]

I didn't really word it properly, i meant it was moot in the sense that it's all well and good to say what money we should be getting but in reality we should be dealing with the money we actually have access too.

Part of me also suspects that if aid wasn't being given to India, it wouldn't go towards our own defence budget.

I think you're absolutely right Rob it wouldn't be used on defence as this government is just the latest in a long line to ask our military to perform taks that they won't fund. When you believe that the government has its priorities wrong though (which I do) then I think the thing to do is point that out as loudly and as often as you can and not accept it as just being the way it is.

 

[RobWilliams]

I think you're absolutely right Rob it wouldn't be used on defence as this government is just the latest in a long line to ask our military to perform taks that they won't fund. When you believe that the government has its priorities wrong though (which I do) then I think the thing to do is point that out as loudly and as often as you can and not accept it as just being the way it is.

I have to say though, the RN is going to start looking very dapper in 10 - 15 years with the carriers and what-not.

I wouldn't be suprised if a couple more batches of T45 or T26 were ordered, once the economic climate clears up a bit. With all these new vessels being built/designed to you expect to see a bit more frugal with their cash WRT the RN. Vanguards replacement won't come cheap either.

 

[ProM]

So Spsun. Not clear how long you intend to keep this kit on the T45s, but let us say 10 years until replaced at a major re-fit.

That is £248m for CEC
50 replacement Harpoon to replace life-ex items @$1.2m , call it £50m
50 replacement Stingrays to replace ;life-ex items @$1m, so £80m
Integration & fit costs for Harpoon @£20m
Integration & fit costs for Sting-ray (which is not FBNW) @£60m

Manning costs of £45m
Other Through life costs (training, maintenance on-shore, maintenance of CEC) £100m

Shall we say £0.75bn (and I am sure I have missed other costs in such a short consideration) to put a 40 year old missile and a 30 year torpedo on 6 ships for 10 years.

Not great value for money IMO

.

 

[spsun100001]

I have to say though, the RN is going to start looking very dapper in 10 - 15 years with the carriers and what-not.

I wouldn't be suprised if a couple more batches of T45 or T26 were ordered, once the economic climate clears up a bit. With all these new vessels being built/designed to you expect to see a bit more frugal with their cash WRT the RN. Vanguards replacement won't come cheap either.

I hope you're right but I suspect not as politicians don't win votes by spending money on defence.

People like me often get criticised for negative posts and accused of being doomsayers. I only criticise though because I want the RN to be the best it can be (as I'm sure do other posters).

Despite years of defence expenditure that was not matched to the tasks the politicians called on the military to perform, the RN still does have what I would regard to be:

The best MCM capability in the world in terms of numbers of vessels and the quality of the vessels and the sailors who man them.

The second best amphibious warfare capability in the world behind the US

The second best submarine force in the world behind the US. The Astutes are late and overbudget (as ever) but the reports coming out suggest that their performance is fantastic. They may be the best SSN in the world but obviously the US SSN force ranks ahead of us because they have 50+ boats.

An excellent ASW capability through a combination of the Merlin helicopter, highly capable sonars, Type 23 frigates, SSN's and of course very well trained crews. Though sadly the loss of a maritime patrol aircraft has dented this capability.

The T26 and CVs could go either way in my opinion.

The latest designs linked from earlier posts here for the T26 look excellent. A balanced ship with the full range of ASuW, ASW, land attack and self defence AAW and excellent helicopter capacity. If we got 13 ships to these designs they would be tremendous. I worry though about repeating the Type 45 experience. Twelve ships became up to eight which became six. The original designs I saw had SSM's (and torpedoes I think though I may be wrong on that one) but over time these capabilities became fitted for but not with.

For the carriers if we end up with both comissioned (though I accept only one in service at any time), CATOBAR equipped, with enough F35C's and the E2D Hawkeye as the AEW platform that will be a capability which cements the RN right up as a first ranking world navy. If we end up with only one carrier, equipped for VTOL, with a toytown AEW solution and only a handful of F35's then we will have spent a high amount of money for a second rate solution.

T26 and CV's could go either way in my opinion. I hope you're right and I'm wrong on how they pan out.

 

[spsun100001]

So Spsun. Not clear how long you intend to keep this kit on the T45s, but let us say 10 years until replaced at a major re-fit.

That is £248m for CEC
50 replacement Harpoon to replace life-ex items @$1.2m , call it £50m
50 replacement Stingrays to replace ;life-ex items @$1m, so £80m
Integration & fit costs for Harpoon @£20m
Integration & fit costs for Sting-ray (which is not FBNW) @£60m

Manning costs of £45m
Other Through life costs (training, maintenance on-shore, maintenance of CEC) £100m

Shall we say £0.75bn (and I am sure I have missed other costs in such a short consideration) to put a 40 year old missile and a 30 year torpedo on 6 ships for 10 years.

Not great value for money IMO

.

I think your costs are ridiculously high but I'll not get into a debate about them given I 've identified sufficient money to cover them in any event.

Excellent value for money IMHO. CEC is good for the full service life of the ship and it means that these ships which are currently operating in a threat environment containing submarines and surface warships would have much better capability than they do now against those threats.

If you are right and I am wrong then we would have wasted £850m that we would otherwise have used to help the Indian Air force buy a dozen Rafale fighters.

If I am right and you are wrong then we might prevent billion pound ships with 190 personnel on board from being sunk or damaged by submarines or surface warships.

 

[ProM]

You misunderrstand me, I would rather we keep the India Aid money and it were spent on defence, but I can think of many better places to spend.

The Stingrays for the T45s is a particularly ineffective way of spending money for example,
They have only a hull mounted sonar. Use it in active mode then the submarine can track and engage from very long distances. Use it in passive mode and you need to pay for target motion analysis and 2 extra operators per watch and it still won't be great

 

[spsun100001]

You misunderrstand me, I would rather we keep the India Aid money and it were spent on defence, but I can think of many better places to spend.

The Stingrays for the T45s is a particularly ineffective way of spending money for example,
They have only a hull mounted sonar. Use it in active mode then the submarine can track and engage from very long distances. Use it in passive mode and you need to pay for target motion analysis and 2 extra operators per watch and it still won't be great

I've posted at length earlier about the purpose of ASW torpedoes in maintaining a zone of control around your ship so I won't rehash what I've already said.

I don't think we're going to persaude each other on what investment is a greater priority so folks can read our posts and make their own minds up I guess.

 

[the concerned]

look as it stands the t-45 does exatly what it says on the tin. Its a replacement for the t-42's which were quite limited now we have a world class air defence system,these ships are gonna be around for the next 25-30 yrs so extra capability will come.All these senarios about it getting attacked and being able to defend itself against anything other than pirates or insurgents no commander is ever going to send a ship on its own so as part of a combat system it fits where we were lacking we've got a good frigate for ASW we got world class SSN for anti ship now we got a destroyer to fend off an air attack all thats left is the carriers for force projection. It sounds to me that we need to make sure that the T-26 gets the Asw capability that it needs thats where the budget needs concentrating.

 

[RobWilliams]

look as it stands the t-45 does exatly what it says on the tin. Its a replacement for the t-42's which were quite limited now we have a world class air defence system,these ships are gonna be around for the next 25-30 yrs so extra capability will come.All these senarios about it getting attacked and being able to defend itself against anything other than pirates or insurgents no commander is ever going to send a ship on its own so as part of a combat system it fits where we were lacking we've got a good frigate for ASW we got world class SSN for anti ship now we got a destroyer to fend off an air attack all thats left is the carriers for force projection. It sounds to me that we need to make sure that the T-26 gets the Asw capability that it needs thats where the budget needs concentrating.

I can't remember the ratio of ASW:GP platforms but IIRC it's something like 8:5 so we're going to have at least 8 specialised ASW platforms, personally i'm not 100% happy on that ratio but gotta live with the hand you're dealt I guess.

But i'm sure T26 will get top class ASW kit, AFAIK plenty of stuff is being brought over from T23. Then for ASuW the main missile silo is going to be a beast, especially if they put in A70 launchers (which i expect they will do).

The issue people have with saying this ship does this and this ship does that, is that the current RN doesn't have the size to field specialized ships. One ship has to do a reasonable amount of other tasks than just their primary one excellently.

From where i'm standing, T26 is the focus now. All other main projects (T45, Astute, CVF) are pretty much developed + done (i admit with varying degrees of construction). If the T26 gets the kit that some designs have suggested, I will be over the moon, more so if it picks up some export orders to Brazil or elsewhere. Then once T26s are coming into service i'd like the MoD to focus on Vanguards replacement, i've seen figures of around £15-20bn floating around (from a NAO doc dated 2008 - couldn't find any recent documents) so it's not a program we can afford to cock up like Astute.

Ministry of Defence: The United Kingdom

 

[ProM]

As a matter of interest, what do you think that CEC will give that is so crucial?

 

[StevoJH]

As a matter of interest, what do you think that CEC will give that is so crucial?

Full integration of a task groups defences into a single net with the picture generated by all the sensors available fused together allowing a much greater situational awareness, a larger area of sensor coverage and more precise and co-ordinated allocation and guidance of missiles during an attempted missile attack.

Buts those are just my thoughts....

 

[RobWilliams]

Full integration of a task groups defences into a single net with the picture generated by all the sensors available fused together allowing a much greater situational awareness, a larger area of sensor coverage and more precise and co-ordinated allocation and guidance of missiles during an attempted missile attack.

Buts those are just my thoughts....

My understanding of it is that CEC will only really be useful when T26 frigates comes into play because AFAIK T23 will not be getting it so until 2020 it'd only be the 6 Darings (im under the impression our CVF would get it but can't remember where from/why, are they going to get it?) but after that it'll be much more useful.

At least, thats my understanding, is it absolute twaddle?

 

[spsun100001]

Full integration of a task groups defences into a single net with the picture generated by all the sensors available fused together allowing a much greater situational awareness, a larger area of sensor coverage and more precise and co-ordinated allocation and guidance of missiles during an attempted missile attack.

Buts those are just my thoughts....

What he said.....

There was a former RN guy posting a while back about being on a T23 that it was trialled on and he was raving about it. I've had a quick look and can't immediately see his posts. I don't know if anyone else can remember the post numbers or if the guy himself is lurking around and able to point us in the right direction (sadly my sieve like memory can't even remember his username)

 

[spsun100001]

My understanding of it is that CEC will only really be useful when T26 frigates comes into play because AFAIK T23 will not be getting it so until 2020 it'd only be the 6 Darings (im under the impression our CVF would get it but can't remember where from/why, are they going to get it?) but after that it'll be much more useful.

At least, thats my understanding, is it absolute twaddle?

That is my understanding as well. It would enable you to network with US assets (warships and the E2 Hawkeye) if you are operating in conjunction with them. I'm not sure if any other NATO nations have it.

 

[RobWilliams]

That is my understanding as well. It would enable you to network with US assets (warships and the E2 Hawkeye) if you are operating in conjunction with them. I'm not sure if any other NATO nations have it.

I'm not sure either, i expect some may use the fact that the US is shipping assets over to the Pacific and more of the European security needs to be picked up by, well, Europe. So it might be suggested CEC isn't as neccesary as it doesn't particularly increase interoperability with the rest of Europe if they don't have it.

 

[StobieWan]

My understanding of it is that CEC will only really be useful when T26 frigates comes into play because AFAIK T23 will not be getting it so until 2020 it'd only be the 6 Darings (im under the impression our CVF would get it but can't remember where from/why, are they going to get it?) but after that it'll be much more useful.

At least, thats my understanding, is it absolute twaddle?

Type 23 isn't getting CEC - at least according to a news piece in Warships International - didn't read it myself however.

I think we'd get fair use out of CEC once we've a full fleet of Darings in service - even a pair operating in concert would be beefed up quite a bit. I guess the question was raised earlier, how much of a hike in capability over Link 16 or whatever do we get?

CEC lets platforms share raw sensor data as far as I understand it so they can use each other's radar picture, lob shots at stuff. You'd really need someone who's been there to give you an idea what that gives you in terms of capability.