What will be the effects of naval drones (USVs and UUVs)

My2Cents

Active Member
Many people, some even on this board, see drones as a panacea device, “We’ll put drones on the ship, it will be invincible!”, but it doesn’t work that way. Drones will make a few new things possible and a number of other things easier and better. But the majority of the tasks that need to be done will not be effect by whether drones exist or not.

So let us discuss and answer the questions.
  • What will drones do?
    • What can they do that ships and submarines cannot?
    • What tasks can they do better than the mothership?
  • What can drones do for poorly, or not at all?
  • What will drones change, and how?
 

ProM

New Member
I'm not sure who you are saying "even on this board" see UUVs and USV as a universal panacea. If you are taking my words as that then it would be a gross misrepresentation.

Obviously we do not know fully the answers to your questions yet. Look how long it took for the military implications of aircraft to be known. However, some examples
1) what can they do that ships and submarines cannot or which they can do better:
They can be smaller
They can be quieter
They do not risk own personnel.
Thus they can go to very dangerous places - minefields, harbours inshore areas. Whether for reconnaissance or attack. Whilst in WWII etc we may have sent mini-submarines, the greater emphasis on minimising casualties (and the fact that there is an alternative) means we would not in future
They could have very long endurance (no need for oxygen; food, water) so they could for example be used for very long endurance monitoring such as ASW. One could imagine a wind or solar power ASW USV for example
They can be very cheap (people are expensive so you can have expendable swarms

2) What can they do poorly or not at all
Anything that requires complete independence and complex decision making, e.g. complex decision making on viable targets ; boarding and searching etc

3) What will they change:
lets consider the MOD lines of development:
training, equipment, personnel, information, doctrine, organisation, infrastructure
and logistics.
Well all of those will be changed, so one could legitimately answer: everything!
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I certainly don't see Unnn and/or drones as a panacea for all the militaries operational ills.... but I will offer up some observations from actual first hand experience

  • they don't guarantee personnel reductions for like to like task - in fact for broad area surveillance where they are part of an integrated regular C4ISR construct they can use up to 6 times the same resources as a manned asset doing the same task
  • they are effective when used within their current technical constraints, they are more about situational appreciation rather than situational awareness - a subtle but distinct difference
  • the operational costs when compared to an equiv "like for like" manned solution go exponentially upwards the more complex they are and the more complex the mission
  • they're not mainstream in a number of areas (like ASW) because the legal issues are just as weighty as the capability issues
  • the significant weight of negatives are also around the legalities of use, especially if they are part of the decision making loop that lead to a kill/capture event


 

ProM

New Member
I'd agree with all of those points except the first GF, I strongly suspect the 6x figure is not comparing like for like either. But the impact can vary enormously depending on details of the task, and the assets used
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
I've seen on a couple of websites (which i cannot for the life of me remember - apologies) that a big potential use for UUVs is minehunting, although said development would be pretty expensive I imagine. I mean the idea of USVs defusing mines is nothing new but in an underwater setting wouldn't it be considerably harder/more expensive developing the solution? Or would it be a one-trick-pony who sets off the mine?

What i'm keen to know about is what's the potential (as ProM mentioned in post #2) for long endurance submarine tracking/monitering by a UUV?

To me it seems like a promising idea but would the idea be practical in that would it be financially viable to produce a reasonably 'stealthed' (wasn't sure if LO was an applicable term in this case) example so that said submarine wouldn't know it was being tracked?

Plenty of questions here, i know :)

Side note: I know nothing about this whole area so i'm just blue-sky thinking here, apologies if i've been a complete dunce.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
My issue with unmanned vehicles, is that unless they are autonomous, they require on the maintenance of a satellite or radio link in order for them to be controlled.

I don't know how vulnerable latest generation links are to Jamming, but if the links can be jammed easily or even on a regular basis by an enemy force, then the utility of these units is vastly dimminished, at least against the more high tech potential enemy forces.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
I've seen on a couple of websites (which i cannot for the life of me remember - apologies) that a big potential use for UUVs is minehunting, although said development would be pretty expensive I imagine. I mean the idea of USVs defusing mines is nothing new but in an underwater setting wouldn't it be considerably harder/more expensive developing the solution? Or would it be a one-trick-pony who sets off the mine?
This is one that they are already starting to deploy some elements of. The big trick with mines is finding them, and particularly with bottom mines distinguishing between real mines and false positives. I imagine they work something like this:
The drones are used to run grid patterns with short range high resolution sonar and record the results for examination. After the recordings are examined another drone (possibly the same with a different sensor package) is sent back to examine the target more closely (previously this would have been done with divers) and if confirmed drops off a pinger to mark it or a small explosive charge to destroy it.​
What i'm keen to know about is what's the potential (as ProM mentioned in post #2) for long endurance submarine tracking/monitering by a UUV?

To me it seems like a promising idea but would the idea be practical in that would it be financially viable to produce a reasonably 'stealthed' (wasn't sure if LO was an applicable term in this case) example so that said submarine wouldn't know it was being tracked?
The problems I see with ASW UUV’s are:
  • Endurance – While much has been made about a UUV’s having a long endurance because it does not have a crew, this is only partially correct. Endurance needs to consider not only the duration of the deployment, but the limitations as to speed and range of movement, which will be severely constrained. An ASW UUV must be capable of pursuing the target as well as detecting it.

    For extreme examples of the possible differences in speed, duration, and range we have the pelagic data gather drones that have a top speed of ½ knot, but several years endurance for a range of 4000+ miles, vs. the Mk.46 torpedo (torpedoes are nearly drones) that has a speed of 40 knots, and an endurance of about 10 minutes or 6.5 miles, and is slightly larger.
  • Communications – Also severely restricted for a UUV, and generally incompatible with stealth. Many decisions will have to be made by software, including when to alert a human authority that it has a possible target.
  • Sensors – For active and passive sonar systems size has a big impact on sensitivity. It will also impact the size of arc that is covered and scan rate. Plus, even if the drone is stealthier than the submarine, the submarine may still be able to detect a moving UUV first. There is in addition the human element, because the most critical period is when the target is at the limit of detection and intermittent. Humans can make educated guesses and play hunches, computers don’t.
So where does that leave us? Low speed UUV combat drones, maybe with a high speed dash capability. They will be ambush predators.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I'd agree with all of those points except the first GF, I strongly suspect the 6x figure is not comparing like for like either. But the impact can vary enormously depending on details of the task, and the assets used
Actually I've seen it higher - and that was on comparable strike missions

drive a UAS and you bring along players from other shops - and for long duration missions the UAS could rotate 4 drivers in the same time slot as one manned pilot.

the real numbers are ugly, but the marketing has been spectacular.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Would that not be the case for more P8 Poseidon aircraft for the RAAF over the UAV with only 8 aircraft expected to ordered out of a fleet of 18 P-3C and not be so reliant on UAV or is this a different kettle of fish?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Would that not be the case for more P8 Poseidon aircraft for the RAAF over the UAV with only 8 aircraft expected to ordered out of a fleet of 18 P-3C and not be so reliant on UAV or is this a different kettle of fish?
different kettle of fish

UAS on BAMS are basically running racetracks

there is no comparison between the P8's and P3's let alone GHawk/Mariner and P3's

I've attended a few of the P8 briefs, I wish we had 24 :)
 

ProM

New Member
An ASW UUV must be capable of pursuing the target as well as detecting it.
.
No it doesn't. An autonomous UUV that merely passes targets back does not need to pursue, e.g. if in barrier ops.

Not sure about your case GF, there are certainly other cases where there are significant gains
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
No it doesn't. An autonomous UUV that merely passes targets back does not need to pursue, e.g. if in barrier ops.
yep, they're acting as an adjunct array, handing off to the nearest manned asset that needs to close the prosecution loop. The long term view (once the legals are sorted) is to also make them shooters...

Not sure about your case GF, there are certainly other cases where there are significant gains

They can certainly be more cost effective, (in the resources and efficiency vectors), its just that the standard view that they save on manned resources on similar missions is not always true - esp long loiter where there is high activity.

BAMS has high potential, but there are some legal hurdles to jump yet - once they're addressed then the intensive complimentary manning to assist might drop off (and I am a big supporter of BAMS with UAS as complimentary assets)
 

Belesari

New Member
I can see parasite drones that are lowered into the water then start forming a sonar search grid. Kinda like mobile sonar buoys.

I think USV and UUV's are probably more in the utility role for the forseable future.

Though something like the drug subs that cruise just under the surface and use a snorkle for navigation and supplying air would probably work pretty well for survalence and maybe torpedo runs/minelaying.
 

Dodger67

Member
UUVs are already beginning to replace "one trick pony" mine countermeasures ships.

With the right UUV mine clearing can be performed by just about any ship - "general purpose" IPVs are set to take over the job.
This is particularly significant for smaller navies that can't justify/afford having many single purpose ships in their fleet.
 

971

New Member
AFAIK an UUV is basically a 53cm torpedo, launched by a submarine. They have generally a run-time of 30-45 minutes and a top speed of some 5-6 knots. They are wire-guided. They have both passive and active sonar modes.

UUVs are used in three main situations:
- Navigation
- Detection
- Defense

In Navigation mode, a UUV is highly effective in mine-fields. I have never heard of UUVs actually disarming the mines yet (how would they do that?). But what they do is detecting and giving an exact position of the mines so that the parent sub can safely move through the mine-field. In other words, offering a “clear path” for the boat to follow.

In Detection mode, a UUV can be launched and deployed on a specific course and depth, while the parent sub takes a totally different position at a different depth... In other words, it’s used for enlarging the coverage envelope. In passive mode, the UUV might detect an enemy sub for instance. Turned active, it can offer a clear picture for a firing solution while the parent sub would still be undetected and at a relatively safe range.

Finally, in the Defensive mode, a UUV can be used as a decoy by an attacked submarine. The UUV’s sound signature will be the same as the parent submarine at that specific speed of 5-6 knots. The sonar operators in the attacking sub will suddenly have two identical contacts splitting from the same spot! If the UUV is launched after the enemy torpedoes were fired, there would be quite a challenge for the weapons officer to guide his torpedoes towards the real target. Confusion being the key element here.
These are the big pluses of UUVs. The disadvantages are their slow speed, limited endurance and being detectible.

As far as USVs are concerned, I see them as effective (or less) than an actual ASW ship. If we look at the US Fleet Class USVs, other than a considerable smaller scale, they can be as easy detected (reaching speeds of 35 knots) by a sub as a full-scale destroyer or frigate. The only advantages being that they can create confusion (like the UUVs), are a lot cheaper and would not cost human lives if destroyed.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16
AFAIK an UUV is basically a 53cm torpedo, launched by a submarine. They have generally a run-time of 30-45 minutes and a top speed of some 5-6 knots. They are wire-guided. They have both passive and active sonar modes.
The 32.4cm (12”) torpedoes based designs are also common. The choice probably depends mostly on the endurance/range requirements. Almost all designs use electric battery propulsion, for obvious reasons.
UUVs are used in three main situations:
- Navigation
- Detection
- Defense

In Navigation mode, a UUV is highly effective in mine-fields. I have never heard of UUVs actually disarming the mines yet (how would they do that?). But what they do is detecting and giving an exact position of the mines so that the parent sub can safely move through the mine-field. In other words, offering a “clear path” for the boat to follow.
Sea mines are almost never disarmed, unless the deminers desperately need a sample for study. The usual procedure for sweeping (clearing) mines are:
  1. For moored contact mines you cut the cables so they come to the surface and can be detonated with gun fire
  2. Bottom influence mines are typically detonated in place by simulating the target characteristics they look for (magnetic field, sound, pressure, etc.)
  3. Recent designs of bottom mines use combinations of sensors and software to make them harder to sweep. For these you need to place an explosive charge on them, or in close proximity, to detonate the mine (preferred) or disable the operating mechanism.
  4. Torpedo deployed mines have been around for a couple decades.
UUV perform option 1 using hydraulically driven bolt cutters and option 3 with a small detachable charge placed on the mine. Option 2 is usually carried out using helicopters. But the survey work is probably more important, first to find and confirm the existence of the mines, and then to confirm their destruction.
In Detection mode, a UUV can be launched and deployed on a specific course and depth, while the parent sub takes a totally different position at a different depth... In other words, it’s used for enlarging the coverage envelope. In passive mode, the UUV might detect an enemy sub for instance. Turned active, it can offer a clear picture for a firing solution while the parent sub would still be undetected and at a relatively safe range.
Communications is the restriction on this activity. A fiber optic line is currently the best option, but the length of the line and drag of the water restricts the total movement of the sub and drone.

Sensitivity of passive sensors is proportional to the array size, so UUVs will probably be of limited use for extending the range of a submarine in this regard, they could however be used to generate a cross bearing for determining range, allowing a shot to be setup using entirely passive means. There is also the possibility of using ‘pelagic travelers’ to set up a passive tracking network to monitor submarine movement. These are extremely low power UUV that use wings and slight differences in buoyancy for movement, only 1 or 2 knots, and surface every few hours to download any data to satellites. No good for setting up a shot, but they can tell you where a sub has been.

The real value of drone will be any use requiring low power active sensors, that may escape enemy detection but have ranges measured in 10s of meters, for anti-mine warfare and detailed seafloor mapping in enemy controlled areas.
Finally, in the Defensive mode, a UUV can be used as a decoy by an attacked submarine. The UUV’s sound signature will be the same as the parent submarine at that specific speed of 5-6 knots. The sonar operators in the attacking sub will suddenly have two identical contacts splitting from the same spot! If the UUV is launched after the enemy torpedoes were fired, there would be quite a challenge for the weapons officer to guide his torpedoes towards the real target. Confusion being the key element here.
These are the big pluses of UUVs. The disadvantages are their slow speed, limited endurance and being detectible.

As far as USVs are concerned, I see them as effective (or less) than an actual ASW ship. If we look at the US Fleet Class USVs, other than a considerable smaller scale, they can be as easy detected (reaching speeds of 35 knots) by a sub as a full-scale destroyer or frigate. The only advantages being that they can create confusion (like the UUVs), are a lot cheaper and would not cost human lives if destroyed.
Less effect, sort of ... Small size is a key element for drones that have to be loaded by a mothership. ASW USVs will probably be about as effective as antisubmarine helicopters, and use much of the same equipment and tactics. Sprint ahead, stop and drop the sonar array, listen a while, and then retract the array and sprint to the next spot. They would be slower than helicopters by have the advantage of greater endurance, and would probably work together synergisticly. They would have the ability to carry 1 or 2 ASW torpedoes, and probably a RWS for a machine gun to carry out patrol duties while the ship is anchored.
 

Dodger67

Member
I'm afraid, 971, that your definition of a UUV is extraordinarily narrow. In fact you have described only one type and role. By far the most common UUVs are actually launched and controlled from surface ships or boats. The most common role is to carry cameras to explore and inspect the sea floor and objects found there. Think of the machines used to find and examine wrecks and the ones used to 'put eyes onto' the notorious Gulf of Mexico oil well blowout of last year.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I'm afraid, 971, that your definition of a UUV is extraordinarily narrow. In fact you have described only one type and role. By far the most common UUVs are actually launched and controlled from surface ships or boats. The most common role is to carry cameras to explore and inspect the sea floor and objects found there. Think of the machines used to find and examine wrecks and the ones used to 'put eyes onto' the notorious Gulf of Mexico oil well blowout of last year.

I started working with "non torpedo" body UUV's in early 2000. they ranged from alpha server sized units to umbilicals the size of a small/med japanese car.
 
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