The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[deepsixteen]

It's a good blog, often cogent, frequently insightful and I think it's important, as you say, to distinguish between all the buggering around politically and the output from the yards, which appears to be quite good.

Hi

Seems to talk sense on more than an occassional basis wonder what he makes of the good news from Babcock
"Oto Melara (a subsidiary of the Finmeccanica Group) and Babcock International Group's Marine Division have signed a Memorandum of Understanding to offer the Oto Melara 127mm 64cal Light Weight (LW) Medium Calibre Gun System to the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) for the Type 26 frigate for the Royal Navy."

Deepsixteen

 

[1805]

The issue with aircraft selection has become almost farcical, we are in danger of become a laughing stock, when even the US feel they have to speak out to help a friend in the right direction. But it is worth remembering this is a political issue because they have to make the final decision; the RN leadership (probably not the current office holders) have been responsible for the path that has led to this mess. It does have similarities with the CVA/F4/P1154 and Invincibles FRS/AV8B, where we probably ended up with the wrong decision long term.

It strongly contrasts with the MN, where they have faced an equally titanic struggle to maintain a capability on very limited funds, but there seems to have been a more consensus approach to both aircraft/ship selection, even if this has sometimes lead to 2nd best (but less long term core capability gaps). It’s a real shame as it detracts (slightly) from what I genuinely believed will still be an area of huge national pride.

 

[StobieWan]

Hi

Seems to talk sense on more than an occassional basis wonder what he makes of the good news from Babcock
"Oto Melara (a subsidiary of the Finmeccanica Group) and Babcock International Group's Marine Division have signed a Memorandum of Understanding to offer the Oto Melara 127mm 64cal Light Weight (LW) Medium Calibre Gun System to the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) for the Type 26 frigate for the Royal Navy."

Deepsixteen

I'm fairly sure that was announced some time ago - that plus the BAE mount is on offer, customer decision pending. I like the OM mount for preference and hope they'll be taking Vulcano as well.

 

[1805]

Hi

Seems to talk sense on more than an occassional basis wonder what he makes of the good news from Babcock
"Oto Melara (a subsidiary of the Finmeccanica Group) and Babcock International Group's Marine Division have signed a Memorandum of Understanding to offer the Oto Melara 127mm 64cal Light Weight (LW) Medium Calibre Gun System to the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) for the Type 26 frigate for the Royal Navy."

Deepsixteen

Personally I would like to see the 155mm Mk8, but for now that seems to be off the agenda. That said the T26 is planned to be highly modular and if we are going to buy off the shelf, then I can't see why we can't delay until other options such as the 155mm AGS is in service and an established system, or maybe the Mk 8 155mm was able to come back into the picture.

 

[StobieWan]

We do *not* under any circumstances, want the AGS on board an RN ship. The last one bought at contract price was $140m...

 

[swerve]

As well as being stupendously expensive, the AGS would also need its own logistics, since it has nothing in common with any other gun apart from the calibre, & is enormous. The turret weighs about 100 tons, i.e. four times as much as the Oto Melara 127/62. Even the proposed (by BAe, not requested by the USN, not funded) 'lite' version would weigh over 50 tons.

 

[1805]

My point was there is no need to make a commitment until much later if we buy off the shelf, by which time other more interesting options might be on the table. I would not see the AGS as a likely option, but the heavier shell weight a 100kg round offers and the much greater range (also on offer from 127mm) maybe puts it in the space of much more expensive weapons. I have favour the Mk8 conversion and this could also by on the table again if funding improves.

 

[Hambo]

My point was there is no need to make a commitment until much later if we buy off the shelf, by which time other more interesting options might be on the table. I would not see the AGS as a likely option, but the heavier shell weight a 100kg round offers and the much greater range (also on offer from 127mm) maybe puts it in the space of much more expensive weapons. I have favour the Mk8 conversion and this could also by on the table again if funding improves.

Is that not gold plating to the extreme? I would think there is every need to make the commitment relatively soon seeing as there is already pressure to reduce the unit cost of Type 26 and with it the tonnage from when the concept was first unveiled. The design team work is already starting.

Not being a naval architect myself, but surely planning on a 30 tonne 127mm mount, is far easier than a 55 tonne mount with separate propellant and munition handling. For the difference of 10km or so range , wouldn't it be more marketable to leave space and weight margin for VLS or CIWS on a 5000 tonne hull rather than a costly, heavy and unproven gun mount? The Zumwalts are massive and even trying to fit one on a Burke looks a squeeze.

 

[StobieWan]

I don't see the Mk8 coming back - it'd be unique to the RN, have no export potential as there's a dearth of Mk8 turrets to convert once the Type 26's are done and dusted.

With a surface combatant fleet of 19, we're past the point where we can afford or justify niche solutions. I totally agree with you in terms of if it needs to be taken out, 155mm beats 127mm but there's other places that money could be usefully put to use - CEC for all the Type 45's for instance, ABM updates for those ships, navalising fireshadow - the list goes on.

Back on AGS, LRAP is about $30K a round and there's no alternative to that guided round as the USN gave up on the idea of shooting anything but that out of the barrel a while ago.So, no smoke, illumination, no cheap warning shot ammo, nothing but LRAP as far as I understand it.

Barrel life is 1,000 rounds vs 7,000 for the OM mount, and the Oto Melaro shoots every 5 inch round ever made - it's a fraction of the cost, and about 80% of the capability.

AGS Lite only carries about 150 rounds per gun, and the installation would involve deleting the forward silos on a flight III Burke - I'd imagine trying to get AGS into a ship about 20% smaller would be a right pigs ear of a job.

We're not actually making a decision right now - the Type 26 is being offered with either the BAE mount or the OM one - and offering up anything other than 127 mm means we have to front the cost of all the integration because I'm sure any export customers won't want anything other than 127mm.

 

[kev 99]

Is that not gold plating to the extreme?

Absoluetely the Oto mount is good enough for a navy that doesn't have a limitless budget and with Volcano rounds is a pretty hefty upgrade on what we have.

Plus the Oto will offer us the savings of having a single MCG for the whole fleet, once the guns from the T45 that the RN never wanted it to have in the first place have been replaced.

 

[1805]

Absoluetely the Oto mount is good enough for a navy that doesn't have a limitless budget and with Volcano rounds is a pretty hefty upgrade on what we have.

Plus the Oto will offer us the savings of having a single MCG for the whole fleet, once the guns from the T45 that the RN never wanted it to have in the first place have been replaced.

I'm not sure how likely it is the T45 will have their 4.5" replaced with 127mm OM mounts. This would be far more likely with a return to the Mk 8 conversions. In 7-10 years time funding for the RN should be far better. I would rather there was a new build option, there is every potential for BAE to dominate in this market.

 

[kev 99]

I'm not sure how likely it is the T45 will have their 4.5" replaced with 127mm OM mounts. This would be far more likely with a return to the Mk 8 conversions. In 7-10 years time funding for the RN should be far better. I would rather there was a new build option, there is every potential for BAE to dominate in this market.

The Mk8 upgrade to 155mm was a specific solution to upgrade the RN's capability at a budget, and produce cost savings across the Army and Navy, it was only really an option because it meant reusing mounts. I don't see advantages for any other user unless they already have Mk mounts in service, that restricts the customer base to navies using ex RN ships, the potential for BAE to dominate this market is approximately naff all.

 

[dHAKAPETE]

Where's the Phalanx

Looks like Dauntless has sailed without phalanx fitted ? Thought she was getting ex type 22 systems ?

 

[AndrewMI]

UK Armed Forces Commentary: Type 26, Type 45, anti-ship missiles

 

[the concerned]

i'm just asking but could the atacms missile used in the mlrs be adapted for naval use maybe even the mlrs itself.

 

[StobieWan]

Looks like Dauntless has sailed without phalanx fitted ? Thought she was getting ex type 22 systems ?

Batch 3 Type 22 carries Goalkeeper not Phalanx if I'm not mistaken.

I'm guessing she's not been fitted with 1b on the basis she's unlikely to get close ashore and her SeaViper can handle the airborne threat - but I'd sooner they carried them as a matter of course to be honest,

Ian

 

[StobieWan]

The Mk8 upgrade to 155mm was a specific solution to upgrade the RN's capability at a budget, and produce cost savings across the Army and Navy, it was only really an option because it meant reusing mounts. I don't see advantages for any other user unless they already have Mk mounts in service, that restricts the customer base to navies using ex RN ships, the potential for BAE to dominate this market is approximately naff all.

Well, they could dominate the market, it's just that it'd be a very very small market

Most of the former RN ships that went abroad didn't carry the Mk8 in any event - early batch type 22 and 23? No gun or a light calibre 40mm?

 

[dHAKAPETE]

Batch 3 Type 22 carries Goalkeeper not Phalanx if I'm not mistaken.

I'm guessing she's not been fitted with 1b on the basis she's unlikely to get close ashore and her SeaViper can handle the airborne threat - but I'd sooner they carried them as a matter of course to be honest,

Ian

Thanks. Share the sentiment. Pete

 

[AndrewMI]

Looks like Dauntless has sailed without phalanx fitted ? Thought she was getting ex type 22 systems ?

I thought it was the Ex Type 42 systems?

 

[swerve]

i'm just asking but could the atacms missile used in the mlrs be adapted for naval use maybe even the mlrs itself.

Been looked into & abandoned at least once.