It;s only end of life 2015 ish if the government decides to scrap a lot of Tornadoes early. Not long ago they were talking about end of life 2025 ish.
The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter overlander
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Best get a 3rd carrier on the order books then... I'd swap both Albions for another carrier to double up as a LPH... What is nowdays more likely a helicopter assault or beach assault? With the Bays we can still operate landing craft over the horizon if needed.
Ah - okay - wasn't sure - is there any project to re-engine them if the 2025 would stick? I' hope they'd hang on to 'em a bit longer than 2015 if possible as it's likely we're going to be thin on the ground for RAF resources otherwise, assuming a buy of 38 F35C as a purple asset and leaving 160 or so Tiffy in the mix?
107 Typhoon from the RAF website, 53 tranche 1, 67 Tranche 2, 40 tranche 3 on order, then the tranche 1 retire 2015-2018, leaving 107.
That's ridiculously thin, especially if they do delete the Tornado early, two major wars have certainly starved the services. I think the RAF and RN will need more F35, getting them is another matter.
Hi guys, i'm new on here. Bit of a military geek and enthusiast! Wondered what people think of the navys future? The current ships/subs in build, number of hulls and what we are lacking?
New carriers look good, but i confess i doubt the government is prepared to fund both carriers with a FAA of say 60 F35C + AEW Aircraft + Electronic warfare jets (F18G Growlers) + all the helicopters. One has to ask, if you do not create a proper CVBG strike group, why bother at all?
Another thing, anyone here think we should be aquiring say 6-8 Airborn MCM helicopters like the Americans have? I like our MCMV's but they are so goddamn slow, poor at sea patrol (due to speed, lack of weapons, lack of aviation/UAV abilities, lack of RIB's and accomodation for embarked Royal Marine boarding teams) and don't provide the navy with enough multi-role capabilities.
Any news on the future replacements of the MCMV's and OPV's with a Corvette sized vessel? Wish we had a few of these
New carriers look good, but i confess i doubt the government is prepared to fund both carriers with a FAA of say 60 F35C + AEW Aircraft + Electronic warfare jets (F18G Growlers) + all the helicopters. One has to ask, if you do not create a proper CVBG strike group, why bother at all?
Another thing, anyone here think we should be aquiring say 6-8 Airborn MCM helicopters like the Americans have? I like our MCMV's but they are so goddamn slow, poor at sea patrol (due to speed, lack of weapons, lack of aviation/UAV abilities, lack of RIB's and accomodation for embarked Royal Marine boarding teams) and don't provide the navy with enough multi-role capabilities.
Any news on the future replacements of the MCMV's and OPV's with a Corvette sized vessel? Wish we had a few of these
Me too - I'd like to see something like the original 140 ish F35 ordered over a period of time that fit in with the draw down of Tornado - we badly need that fresh injection of airframes and the added capabilities of a fifth gen platform. It's made worse by the lack of A/G capability on the Typhoon. F35 will be the best thing to happen to UK strike capability in decades, for both the RAF and FAA.. We just need need more of 'em..
1) the ACA have not spent all the £80m. The study is not planned to end until end 2012
2) 2 QEC will allow one to be in operational at all times, the availability will be higher than CVSs
3) Remember that the F35B is a lot more expensive (capital & through-life) than the F35C. Even a big cost for conversion may not alter the sums as much as you think
4) we will have AEW aboard the QEC, if only rotary wing (long term if converted to CATOBAR that might become fixed wing, but only in long term I suspect.
5) I think LM claim that F35 doesn't need additional EW. We certainly can't afford to buy them. One QEC which is reinforced by the RAF in time of conflict to 36 F35, plus 4 helos is a major strike force. It may not be a CVBG, but it would scare the bejeezus out of most countries entire armed forces. Certainly worth bothering with
6) IMHO MCMV will be replaced by autonomous vehicles.
2) 2 QEC will allow one to be in operational at all times, the availability will be higher than CVSs
3) Remember that the F35B is a lot more expensive (capital & through-life) than the F35C. Even a big cost for conversion may not alter the sums as much as you think
4) we will have AEW aboard the QEC, if only rotary wing (long term if converted to CATOBAR that might become fixed wing, but only in long term I suspect.
5) I think LM claim that F35 doesn't need additional EW. We certainly can't afford to buy them. One QEC which is reinforced by the RAF in time of conflict to 36 F35, plus 4 helos is a major strike force. It may not be a CVBG, but it would scare the bejeezus out of most countries entire armed forces. Certainly worth bothering with
6) IMHO MCMV will be replaced by autonomous vehicles.
Well, as has been mentioned, one of those carriers with a full complement of F35C aboard would be a very big stick indeed - you'd be talking about 2nd or 3rd most capable carrier strike capability in the world. There's maybe 10-15 countries in the world that could do *anything* about that arriving in their back yard and of those, very few could locate the carrier group with any certainty while getting the snot bombed out of them. This is a very big thing for the UK..Hi guys, i'm new on here. Bit of a military geek and enthusiast! Wondered what people think of the navys future? The current ships/subs in build, number of hulls and what we are lacking?
New carriers look good, but i confess i doubt the government is prepared to fund both carriers with a FAA of say 60 F35C + AEW Aircraft + Electronic warfare jets (F18G Growlers) + all the helicopters. One has to ask, if you do not create a proper CVBG strike group, why bother at all?
Another thing, anyone here think we should be aquiring say 6-8 Airborn MCM helicopters like the Americans have? I like our MCMV's but they are so goddamn slow, poor at sea patrol (due to speed, lack of weapons, lack of aviation/UAV abilities, lack of RIB's and accomodation for embarked Royal Marine boarding teams) and don't provide the navy with enough multi-role capabilities.
Any news on the future replacements of the MCMV's and OPV's with a Corvette sized vessel? Wish we had a few of these
On the MCM replacements, the whole shebang is intended to be replaced by the Mine Counter Measures, Hydrographic and Patrol craft.
Navy Matters | MCM, Hydrographic and Patrol Capability
That'd be about 2-2500 tons, gun on the front, heli pad, mission bay, USV's that sort of thing.
AFAIK isn't the choice between the Merlin, V22 or Hawkeye? At least, thats the impression i'm getting from NavyMatters
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
As far as I am aware they havent built *new* E2/C2 airframes in quite a few years, unless there will be new airframes for the E-2D.
So E-2 could be a non-starter without going into any more detail then that.
I believe a V-22 costs almost as much as a C-130 to purchase (70+ Million?), so a Merlin would probably be the most cost effective platform, especially if RN or RAF have a few spare airframes lying around.
So E-2 could be a non-starter without going into any more detail then that.
I believe a V-22 costs almost as much as a C-130 to purchase (70+ Million?), so a Merlin would probably be the most cost effective platform, especially if RN or RAF have a few spare airframes lying around.
I would have thought that Hawkeye would be the preferred solution - i would certainly hope that some would be available for purchase!
They may also be useful for COD duties (or at least the Grayhound(?) model).
Too expensive by far in the current climate. Very nice but we'll be getting the Cerberus stuff most likely repackaged into a palletised load with operators consoles for use in Merlin.
Well iv'e heard no new news on this front. We need a large quantity of these new MCM Patrol Ships to replace the 15 x MCM, 2 x coastal survey and 4 x OPV's currently in service + say 4 Type 22 Frigates which we cannot afford like-for-like, not to mention we did have at one point16 MCMV's and another survey ship HMS Roebuck. So that gives us a figure of 27 hulls to replace.
I'd say we need at least 16 of these future MCM Patrol ships if not more, the fleet has already been so drastically cut in the last 20 years yet everything from piracy, drug smuggling and so on is increasing. A cheap MCM Patrol ship is essential!
You've heard no news because there's been no news. The OPVs & survey ships are fairly new, & won't need replacing for a long time. The MCMV hulls will last a very long time, & refurbishment of the vessels & fitting new equipment, e.g. new USVs or whatever the current TLA is, is all that's needed for now. There's no urgency to replace anything, so nothing much is happening.
One could argue that the frigate/destroyer fleet is overworked & we need some smaller vessels urgently to cover the anti-piracy, anti-smuggling etc roles, but as I understand it the RN brass isn't pushing that because it fears it'd get even fewer frigates if it had such ships.
One could argue that the frigate/destroyer fleet is overworked & we need some smaller vessels urgently to cover the anti-piracy, anti-smuggling etc roles, but as I understand it the RN brass isn't pushing that because it fears it'd get even fewer frigates if it had such ships.
My prediction was based on both carriers getting refitted to take F35Cs, which I hope will eventually be the case. I did state RAF pilots were still likely to be flying them but effectively the RAF would be out of the game. This is similar to the situation post 1945 to before GW1. However the big difference then was there was a significant Soviet threat which justified the RAF.
I think Tornado's will be accelerated out to justify more F35C, if we get 50+, there will be no real need for the strike capability of the Typhoon. I sure if there was an operation they would try and help out for RAF PR (like the Black Buck missions), but is there a real need?
That's the problem - start producing something that looks like it'll do the trick to the untrained (ie, political) eye and the T26 buy will come under pressure.
I'd like the MHPC build to come forward a bit to get hull numbers up but as you say, it's all newish or newly refurbed kit , lets get the T23 updates and then the first T26 hulls in the water.
Ian
100% agree
Lets get the T26s going first before MHPC gets too ahead of itself. T26 is too important to sacrifice anything else. We've more pressing things to update.
I don't think the Type 26 is actually the most pressing build now. After the SDR in 2010, we decided to reduce the fleet to 19 Destroyers and Frigates. Therefore there was no pressing need to replace the Type 22's as they would not be getting replaced anyway. With the Type 23's being able if needed to see service another 10-25 years (with money thrown at them to keep the updated and in good working order) and pressing budget constraints, building an expensive class of escort ship could be delayed until the next Parliment and instead MoD budgets better spent getting cheaper 'Corvette' type vessels which like i say are cheaper for one, faster to build and get hulls in the water quickly. Buy getting more hulls in the water you can task these Corvettes to do the majority of the workload current Destroyers and Frigates are doing such as chasing pirates, working to protect UK maritime assests, and other minor maritime chores which take up like 70% of RN tasking. Not to mention that the cost of running a Corvette is a hell of a lot cheaper than running a frigate, and buy having more hulls in the water you reduce the time spent at sea, and thus reduce the maintenence bill associated with larger warships.
This would also free up the Frigate/Destroyer fleet to be available for missions more suited to it's role, such as Lybia, patrolling the Gulf and the Falkland Islands. In other words medium intensity missions.
River class OPV's cost something like £20 Million apiece, the Corvettes shouldn't cost more than £60-70 million surely? The new Type 26 has been quoted as costing £250+ million each, i'd rather we spent the money on cheaper capable corvettes which take less than half the time to build. We'd build at least 8 of them by 2020 if we started now, but about 2-3 max of Type 26 frigates.
Don't get me wrong i love the Type 26 Frigate and am determined to see the navy have them but i think our priority is to increase hull numbers and reduce costs.
Rochy,
as I understand it the Type 26 won't be built until the next parliament. It's currently being defined, then it'll be designed, & construction won't start for a few years. In the meantime, we have two aircraft carriers to build, & a batch of Type 23s to upgrade with equipment which will later be swapped over to new Type 26s.
I appreciate your argument for corvettes, but the decision has already been taken to cut hull numbers, & it's not likely to be reversed to add corvettes in place of retired frigates. We're retiring early ships that are paid for, we have spares & trained crews for, & can do everything your corvettes can do. Their running costs are higher, but could be cut by decommissioning systems surplus to a patrol role (crew numbers would decrease accordingly), & that might make them cheaper, over the remainder of their previously planned lives, than prompt replacement by corvettes. You see?
Your corvettes would need more spending, soon. That isn't going to happen. It could well also result (& this is what frightens the admirals) in fewer Type 26s. The decision to cut escort numbers to 19 was made in the absence of corvettes. Six new corvettes? Then surely (says the Treasury), you don't need so many frigates.
as I understand it the Type 26 won't be built until the next parliament. It's currently being defined, then it'll be designed, & construction won't start for a few years. In the meantime, we have two aircraft carriers to build, & a batch of Type 23s to upgrade with equipment which will later be swapped over to new Type 26s.
I appreciate your argument for corvettes, but the decision has already been taken to cut hull numbers, & it's not likely to be reversed to add corvettes in place of retired frigates. We're retiring early ships that are paid for, we have spares & trained crews for, & can do everything your corvettes can do. Their running costs are higher, but could be cut by decommissioning systems surplus to a patrol role (crew numbers would decrease accordingly), & that might make them cheaper, over the remainder of their previously planned lives, than prompt replacement by corvettes. You see?
Your corvettes would need more spending, soon. That isn't going to happen. It could well also result (& this is what frightens the admirals) in fewer Type 26s. The decision to cut escort numbers to 19 was made in the absence of corvettes. Six new corvettes? Then surely (says the Treasury), you don't need so many frigates.