The Indonesian Army

[Ananda]

In Vietnam, the Australians and Americans operated their MBTs, in very thick jungle, to support their troops. The NVA however, when it came to combat, tended to deploy their MBTs in more open spaces, like the coastal roads, during the advance to the South in 1975 and the Easter Offensive in 1972. The use of armour in a thick jungle setting was mostly restricted to the PT-76 - now I could be wrong here but I'm not aware of the NVA using its MBTs for combat in thick jungle [not saying they couldn't], like the Australians and Americans did. The British also used Comet light tanks in Malaya during the Emergency. As OPSSG said, a lot depends on having the proper engineering assets in place to support your armour.

I believe, the British only used light Tanks, due they did not expect any armoured opposition during Malayan emergency time. However NICA (Netherland Indies Collonial Army) did operated M-4 Sherman (which basically already in Medium-MBT catagory), if I'm not mistaken on the worries that the Indonesian Revolutionary forces able to bring live some of ex Japanese Tanks. In short Nica bring Sherman in the anticipations of possible armoured plus Anti-Tank oppositions.

Now the Indonesian revolutioners did not able (as far as I know) managed to bring ex Japanese Tanks to operations. However they managed to operated and fielded some Japanese Anti-Tanks assets. Thus, when an Army expect armoured confrontations or credible anti-tank oppositions, they will bring heavier armoured even in the Tropical jungle conditions.

Like I said, the lack of MBT to MBT clash in the Vietnam not because MBT can't operated in Vietnam, however because NVA decided not to bring their T-55 head on often enough with US M-48/M-60. Still the record due show (at least what I've been read on few publications), that US M-48/M-60 did have some engagement with NVA T-55. Although not in large scale.

On the lighter side, some retired generals turn politicians that oppose TNI effort to introduce MBT/Leo 2 now, when they're still in active duty on the 90's did tried to bring Leo 1 to TNI inventory. Just like I said on my past posting, the deal boggled down due to Soeharto Children got better deal for Scorpions.

Just to show, the arguments on MBT sometimes already clouded by political considerations. The conditions of Kalimantan/Borneo is not much different than Indochina now, and yet Cambodian and Vietnam do manage to operated their MBT quite effectively.

 

[STURM]

I believe, the British only used light Tanks, due they did not expect any armoured opposition during Malayan emergency time. However NICA (Netherland Indies Collonial Army) did operated M-4 Sherman (which basically already in Medium-MBT catagory), if I'm not mistaken on the worries that the Indonesian Revolutionary forces able to bring live some of ex Japanese Tanks. In short Nica bring Sherman in the anticipations of possible armoured plus Anti-Tank oppositions.

The only tanks operated by the British during the Emergency were Comets of the 3rd Royal Tank Regiment. When Sabah and Labuan was liberated from the Japanese, some Matildas were used by the Australians and the British had Shermans when they liberated Malaya in 1945. During the 2d Emergency, Malaysian V-150s/V-100s, Ferrets and Panhards were used for convoy escort and to protect installations but were never used in triple canopy jungle. Malaysian Ferrets were also deployed to Borneo during the Confrontation but their crews were mostly employed as infantryman. Now it would be interesting to find out if ALRI PT-76s were ever deployed to Kalimantan during the Confrontation, wouldn't it?

Here's an article on the use of armour in the 1st Emergency.

http://s12.invisionfree.com/ScaleModelsMalaysia/ar/t7496.htm

On the lighter side, some retired generals turn politicians that oppose TNI effort to introduce MBT/Leo 2 now, when they're still in active duty on the 90's did tried to bring Leo 1 to TNI inventory. Just like I said on my past posting, the deal boggled down due to Soeharto Children got better deal for Scorpions.

A problem the Malaysian army has had is that it's senior leadership, all of whom spent their careers fighting a counter insurgency campaign, in an army which never operated MBTs, had the traditional outlook of MBTs not being able to operate in local terrain. The TNI-AD may had had the same problem, that of mindset.

Still the record due show (at least what I've been read on few publications), that US M-48/M-60 did have some engagement with NVA T-55. Although not in large scale.

There were a number of tank vs tank engagements, not only by U.S. tanks but also South Vietnamese, in a non jungle setting. And of course one of the most iconic images of the war is of NVA T-54s entering the presidential palace in Saigon, ending a war that was largely fought in a jungle or semi jungle setting.

The conditions of Kalimantan/Borneo is not much different than Indochina now, and yet Cambodian and Vietnam do manage to operated their MBT quite effectively.

Yes but bear in mind that a lot of rural areas in Cambodia and Vietnam has terrain that is quite different from that encountered in Malaysia and Indonesia, more open spaces with trees that are more spread out.

 

[STURM]

Apologies, double post.

 

[Ananda]

Yes but bear in mind that a lot of rural areas in Cambodia and Vietnam has terrain that is quite different from that encountered in Malaysia and Indonesia, more open spaces with trees that are more spread out.

Strurm, that's the same conditions in much of populated area and industry in North Borneo and Kalimantan. Borneo as a Tropical Jungle terains only left in the very heart of the Island (both in North Borneo and Kalimantan). The rate of deforestations is quite fast due to logging, convertions to Palm Oil plantations and Minning. By this rate by the end of this decade, the Virgin junggle will only hold less than a third of that Island.

This is the second largest Island in the world after Papua (unless you count Greenland and Australia as an Island ). Larger than Madagascar and larger than France. Thus mechanized army operations is needed. I believe by the end of this decade only Papua perhaps that still hold 'virgin' Tropical Junggle as half of the Island. However both Borneo and Papua coastal and near coastal area I believe will be significantly cleared that enable heavy machineries (Lorry Trucks, Tractors, and Military Tracked vehicles) to operate freely.

The conditions of Borneo is not the same with the 60's at the time on North Borneon revolt and Konfrontasi. That time, light infantry operations still hold most chunk of operations due to the conditions. However now moreover by the end of this decade, if someone decided to Invade this Island (both in North Borneo and Kalimantan), they can bring their MBT along and can operate efectively especialy in the cleared populated area including the plantations.

 

[Ananda]

Found this in local Forum, from some forumers with id Osetiawan. This is image from Japanese occupation time of local recruits called PETA (acronym for Motherland Defenders), being trained seems as 'garage monkey' for Japanese Tanks in Indonesia.

Base on the image I believe the Tanks were Type 97 Chi-Ha Medium Tanks. This tank can handle M-3 Stuart light tanks, but completely out-match by M-4 Sherman medium Tanks. I believe this was one of the reasons why NICA bring M-4 to reclaim Indonesia/Dutch East Indies from 1945-1949. So far I did not have reliable report that show Indonesian revolutioners able to operated those Chi-Ha Tanks against NICA Tanks.

 

[STURM]

Strurm, that's the same conditions in much of populated area and industry in North Borneo and Kalimantan. Borneo as a Tropical Jungle terains only left in the very heart of the Island (both in North Borneo and Kalimantan). The rate of deforestations is quite fast due to logging, convertions to Palm Oil plantations and Minning. By this rate by the end of this decade, the Virgin junggle will only hold less than a third of that Island.

I get what you mean about how the landscape is rapidly changing but the point I was trying to make is that in Cambodia, Thailand and Vietnam, the terrain in some areas is naturally very different than in Peninsular Malaysia and Borneo, which allows for the employment of MBTs in ways that would not be possible in Malaysia. There were photos several years ago showing the Royal Thai Army conducting a battalion level armoured exercise near the Cambodian border in which all the MBTs and APCs were moving at 4 abreast at high speed. Now this would simply not be possible in most areas in West and East Malaysia, even taking into account the changing landscape.

I'm not saying that MBTs can't be operated in Malaysia, including the Malaysian part of Borneo - of course they can but due to peculiarities of the terrain, direct comparisons can't be made with Vietnam and that operating MBTs, even with adequate engineering support, will present a whole lot of challenges. I have spent a lot of time in the jungle, and believe me, there are many areas where you have trouble walking in, let alone driving 50 tonne MBTs in .

 

[Ananda]

I'm not saying that MBTs can't be operated in Malaysia, including the Malaysian part of Borneo - of course they can but due to peculiarities of the terrain, direct comparisons can't be made with Vietnam and that operating MBTs, even with adequate engineering support, will present a whole lot of challenges. I have spent a lot of time in the jungle, and believe me, there are many areas where you have trouble walking in, let alone driving 50 tonne MBTs in .

Well Strurm, the point that I try to convey is, where's the jungle ?

The whole economic and population center in Borneo/Kalimantan mostly located in the coastal and near coastal area. And the terain changing fast. Presently the convertionist like WWF and Indonesian Wild Life department have trouble relocating hunderds Orang Utan they've confescated from public and poachers, due to, not surprisingly diminishing forest area left.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree MBT is not in place on Tropical Jungle. It's not a forest of Arden that can penetrated by Panzer Divisions. However on the area that do matter (economics and population center) in Kalimantan, there's hardly jungle left. The green scenery that left in that area is Plam Oil plantations, or Soft Wood plantations (for Pulp raw materials). And those plantations is perhaps provide less obstacles then the conditions of Arden or other Europe's forest. It's mostly flat land, with some low hill in the way. Most my time in Kalimantan spent on those plantations, and if large lorries can penetrate easily, the Military mechanised heavy asset including MBT can also do it.

By the end of this decade all coastal and near coastal area of Indonesian Kalimantan should be connected by Trans Kalimantan highway. Kalimantan is changing fast, and the junggle that supposedly provide natural barriers for heavy mechanised military assets is also diminishing fasts except in the very heart of the Island.

When (and it's already happening in Kalimantan and more in Sumatra) the TNI has no other chance but rethinking their Tropical 'jungle' strategy. I believe getting MBT is one of them. They will in my oppinion put Lighter Tanks (originated from Java) in Kalimantan first, but I believe because they need to learn on efficient MBT operations which has to be harness in Java first. But I have no doubt, they have the thinking of operating MBT latter on in the other large Islands, due to the changing environment and terain.

Still I'm jumping ahead. The 'political' drama of MBT procurements is not over yet

 

[STURM]

When (and it's already happening in Kalimantan and more in Sumatra) the TNI has no other chance but rethinking their Tropical 'jungle' strategy.

I would imagine that Hyundai is also actively pushing the K-2 as an alternative to the Leopard 2. As part of its shift from an army that is more organised and equipped for counterinsurgency and internal security work to external security, I won't be surprised if the TNI-AD soons start shopping for motorised 155mm guns.

What is the most numerous artillery piece operated by the TNI-AD?

Does the TNI-AD regularly conduct large scales exercises, above brigade level?

Does the TNI-AD have a jungle warfare school?

BTW, great photos, thank you!

 

[Ananda]

What is the most numerous artillery piece operated by the TNI-AD?

Does the TNI-AD regularly conduct large scales exercises, above brigade level?

Does the TNI-AD have a jungle warfare school?

Most numerous artilery being used by TNI-AD is US M-101 105 mm and Yugo's M-48 76 mm. The Yugo's gun being replaced by Korean K-178 105 mm.

Yes they conduct large scale of excercise, ussually being dubbed as 'Latihan Gabungan' or Join Exercise. That's the largest, but Divisional sizes exercise ussually being conducted at least annually.

They have junggle warfare school. Mostly in Java and Sumatra.

 

[STURM]

And the terain changing fast. Presently the convertionist like WWF and Indonesian Wild Life department have trouble relocating hunderds Orang Utan they've confescated from public and poachers, due to, not surprisingly diminishing forest area left.

It's sad isn't it, that the human races continues to be the most destructive species on earth. All in the name of development.

Green: Death of the Forests - Witness - Al Jazeera English

 

[Ananda]

This the link to TNI-AD Pussenkav (Cavalry Command) :PENYEMPURNAAN ORGAS SATKAV TNI AD DALAM RANGKA MENDUKUNG TUGAS POKOK « P U S S E N K A V

Sorry in Bahasa. The summary of this, is the Cavalry Command put several options on the organisation form of Cavalry Battalion (YonKav in Indonesian term), when they get Leo 2 MBT.

From what I read, seems they opted to have 'hybrid' structure on the Cavalry battalions consists of MBT, IFV/Wheeled APC. If this's the choice they're going to use, then I believe it's simmilar with what French done with Lecrec followed by FAB. Thus Leo 2 composite with Anoa APC seems one of the strong choice that TNI-AD will used.

The compossite form will enable them to equiped at least 4 Cavalry battalions with MBT from the other option (pure MBT batalions) that will only able to equiped 2 battalions.

 

[DavidDCM]

Anoa and Leopard 2 would not complement each other very well. Wheels and tracks don't go well with each other on a doctrinal level.

 

[STURM]

Anoa and Leopard 2 would not complement each other very well. Wheels and tracks don't go well with each other on a doctrinal level.

True, but in your opinion doesn't terrain play a big part here? Especially if the vehicles are required to move at lower speeds than they would say in the African bush or the plains of Western Europe. It wouldn't be so much of the wheeled vehicles being unable to keep pace with the MBTs that would be the problem but the deficiencies in mobility perhaps. And if both types of vehicles were operating in an urban or semi urban environment it might not be too much of a problem. Apart from the South African army which operated a mix of Oliphants and Ratels, are there are other armies that operated MBTs and wheeled APCs in combat?

 

[pianzi]

A former Dutch colony, Indonesia declared independence after the Japanese occupation during World War II in 1945, though it wasn't until 1949 that the Netherlands accepted it. Though the country boasts more than 17,000 islands it, but significant land borders with Malaysia (on the island of Borneo), Papua New Guinea (on the island of New Guinea), and east Timor (on the island of Timor). With a population of 245.6 million people, it is the 4th most populous nation in the world, behind China, India and the US.

 

[Ananda]

Isn't French Army used VAB to complement Lecrec, in batalion operations ? Seems I recall they did that during operations in Balkan. That's why I comment the composite between MBT and wheeled IFV mimics French operations. But I Could be wrong though .

 

[STURM]

Isn't French Army used VAB to complement Lecrec, in batalion operations ? Seems I recall they did that during operations in Balkan. That's why I comment the composite between MBT and wheeled IFV mimics French operations. But I Could be wrong though .

That's right, the French did. At the end of the day it all boils down to the operational requirements of the user and the terrain. And the size of the procurement budget .

 

[Ananda]

Anoa is based on VAB. I believe it's flexible enough design for whelled IFV, Pindad now developing IFV versions with Denel 20mm turret. This's a youtube video on that IFV [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9mUs6Jfq54&feature=related"]some of Pindad Stuff - YouTube[/nomedia]
In short, Whelled IFV can in my oppinion complement MBT operations. Granted I do believe that tracked IFV is more ideal, however with Pindad now still developing versions of Anoa, then I believe for some time Indonesian Army will still depend on wheeled IFV from Pindad if they want to build composites batalions.

Pindad have planned and already did some technological research with tracked APC/IFV. But still Anoa based IFV more realistic at the moment.

 

[STURM]

It will be interesting to see if the Anoa will be fitted with any applique or add on armour to provide increased protection. If I recall correctly, there was mention several years ago of French VABs in Bosnia being easily penetrated by shell fragments. Do you know how many Anoa variants there will be?

 

[Ananda]

Pindad put at least 8 variances for Anoa including MLRS variant that I heard of. However as far as I can get, at the momemnt they only working for only 2 variances, APC and Command versions. They're building prototype of Recovery/maintenance variant, 120mm mortar carrier, and IFV (with either 20 mm or 90 mm turret). Some mentioned in the local foum that the IFV versions presently being remanufactured to put the engined at back. This singed they want the design for anoa based IFV to have more powerfull engined.

Pindad also working for Anoa V2 which already included add-on armor. How extensive this add-on armor will be still in dark. Standard Anoa, just like VAB's can only handle 12.5mm. From what I heard, Pindad hope the add-on armor will make Anoa can handle up to 20-30 mm hit. But again how extensive the program, I've not find reliable detail on that.

 

[Ananda]

Now days, defense info from Indonesia seems mixed between what's real or what's semi-real, and what's Hoax. Moreover, what one general or minister say can be contradicted by another minister or general.

Take this one, from the district commander of Kalimantan military command (Pangdam) (with Google Translate):

Balikpapan (ANTARA News) - In addition to be guarded by tanks Leopard 2A6, Indonesia-Malaysia border will also be equipped with a squadron of fighter Bell Helicopter AH-1W Super Cobra, said regional commander (Commander) VI Mulawarman, Maj. Gen. Subekti.

"We will put in Berau and Nunukan," he said in Balikpapan, East Kalimantan, on Tuesday.

Currently Kodam Mulawarman VI was prepared the basis for the helicopter squadron. "We use a budget of Rp17 billion to Rp19 billion to prepare for combat helicopter squadron base," he said.

Super Cobra is a helicopter made ​​by Bell, United States (U.S.), and the development of the Huey Cobra that debuted in the Vietnam war. Armament 20 mm Gatling machine gun, Hydra rockets, Sidewinder missiles for air combat and tank Hellfire missile destroyer.

"Super Cobra is a major choice. However, we have another option that is more friendly with the finances, the Agusta Westland helicopter versatile," said former Assistant Planning (Asrena) Chief of Staff of the Army (Army's) is.

Super Cobra jaga perbatasan RI-Malaysia - AntaraNews.com

Basically he says:
1. There' will be new attack helicopter with choices Super Cobra or Augusta Westland (AW-139 ??). While his bos (Army Chief) and Min-def never mentioned other potential attack helicopter project than ex Nato Apache.
2. The Leo-2 will be operated in Kalimantan, while again his Bos clearly stated that Leo 2 will be operated in Java.

Another intentional misdirection ? Ooo well another Drama need to be played.