And if I'm not mistaken, only part of the fleet was upgraded by NIMBA? Any ideas as to why the AMX is not popular?
The Indonesian Army
- Thread starter DavidDCM
- Start date
Ananda
The Bunker Group
The marines feel (according some sources from local forum), the AMX-10 stability performance during amphibious 'beaching' operation is not very good. They tend to be less bouyant if the beaching operation have to be conducted in relative rough waves, They don't find that on Russian stuff and AAV-7 (with AAV-7 according to the rumours from Marines scored on the top as with BMP-3).
Well according some info on European forum that I read, AMX-10 designed for calmer water like channels and river in Europe anyway.
Yes not All PT-76 upgarded. Well those one batalion is basically the ones that get upgrading.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Remarkable, because i always thought the acquisition was scaled down from 20 to 17...
The information is somewhat contradictory, but it seems that 20 were delivered.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Indonesian 'Humvee' like project get Ok to developed.
The Armed Forces chief sign MoU for continue development of Indonesian made Utility Vehicle (Rantis) : Panglima TNI Tandatangani MoU Rantis | Poskota News
This some specs of the Utility Vehicle with Google Translate:
The Armed Forces chief sign MoU for continue development of Indonesian made Utility Vehicle (Rantis) : Panglima TNI Tandatangani MoU Rantis | Poskota News
This some specs of the Utility Vehicle with Google Translate:
Attached is the Prototype of Rantis which used to be called Garda.
Vegan-Zombie
New Member
So are they making them as a family of vehicles like the HMMWV?
Ananda
The Bunker Group
When you already have build the base, it will not be difficult to developed other variance. The most important thing is the base (the chassis, the transmission packages, the power pack packages, the suspensions packages), and the ability to combine them on working platform.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
according to the running text on TV One, the Netherlands parlement has rejected the sale of the Leopard 2A6 to Indonesia.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Indonesian Mindef Told Dutch Counterpart to give decisions by end of month.
The Indonesian Mindef told their dutch counterpart to make final decisions by end of this month: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=239405
In the same time the Dutch Government need to get rid of those Leo 2 soon, and Indonesian deal is important for the Dutch Mindef to make efficiency on their operations.
The Germans will offered upgraded Leo A5 (from other sources that familiar with the offered), and seems no political problem facing from Germans on the deal with Indonesian Mindef on Leo 2.
The Indonesian Mindef told their dutch counterpart to make final decisions by end of this month: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=239405
It's no surprises that Dutch parliament full of factions that hostiles to Indonesian Military. After all politically many in Dutch deep down still bitter that Papua and Maluku (especially the southern maluku) being integrated to Indonesia in first places. Plus many Papuan and Maluku diaspora circulated in Dutch and try to influence Dutch attitude to Indonesia.
In the same time the Dutch Government need to get rid of those Leo 2 soon, and Indonesian deal is important for the Dutch Mindef to make efficiency on their operations.
The Germans will offered upgraded Leo A5 (from other sources that familiar with the offered), and seems no political problem facing from Germans on the deal with Indonesian Mindef on Leo 2.
Did I read that correctly? US$280 per tank, inclusive of upgrades?
Also, what plans for modifications/upgrades does the Indonesian MinDef have? Will it follow in Singapore's path or try some new stuff? I know that the topography of the two countries is vastly different so I'm curious to know how much thought has been put into it.
Also, what plans for modifications/upgrades does the Indonesian MinDef have? Will it follow in Singapore's path or try some new stuff? I know that the topography of the two countries is vastly different so I'm curious to know how much thought has been put into it.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
No, USD 280 mio is for overall budget. The Mindef first being offered by the Dutch 100 Leo 2 ex Dutch Army for USD 280 mio. The Mindef already secured that budget, but Dutch Parliament resisted/opposed the deal on the based of Human Rights issue of Papuan and South Maluku.
Now the Germans offered Leo 2 with the same amount of Budget, but it's not cleared whether it's for 100 or less. The Leo 2 offered by the German will be upgraded, however if it's included on the budget or have to provide another additional budget for that still not cleared.
Those Leo 2 being prepared for Java. Seems lighter Tanks including upgraded AMX 13 will be for other Islands.
Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having Leopards in the first place, as any conflict requiring the use of MBTs is more likely to take place in areas where Indonesia has land borders with other countries, rather than in Java proper? Sorry but if Leopards can't be used effectively in areas where Indonesia shares land borders, due to terrain or other reasons, I can't see the rationale in wanting any Leopards.
Last edited:
Ananda
The Bunker Group
I don't say that Leopard can't be used effectively on other area of Indonesia. However 'politically' (and this already mentioned by Army Chief on several interview), Indonesia did not want to put/stationed Leo 2 in the border area or Island that have land border.
In sense it's more ralated to political reasons that Leo 2 or any other MBT will be stationed in Java, but can be put to other islands if necessary. With 16 LST and 4 LPD, (plus civilian Ro-Ro vessels) seems the Military Sea Lift command quite confidence they can put a batalion of MBT to other island in short notice.
In your opinion could Leopards be used effectively in the remote border areas of Kalimantan?
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Not all border area is that remote. Perhaps I should rephrase my self. Leo 2 is going to be stationed in Java. Politically Indonesia do not want to be the first to put MBT on border area. However Leo 2 (according to the TNI assesment) can operate outside Java, although they say that MBT have limit on operation for Tropical junggle area. Still not all junggle area is off the limit.
That's why I believe those MBT can 'still' be effective on the border area 'that matter'. In other word border area that basically can be a route for large scale invasion or large scale supply route. While the rest of border area, well it won't matter much (for overall picture) since they can only be scaled by light force and small scale supply route.
In short, Leo2 proved can penetrate European jungles. Kalimantan tropical jungles is more dense and hard to penetrate than European jungle, in some area. In such there're considerable area in Kalimantan jungle that the challange is simmilar to European jungle (in density not climate).
Ananda, please don't any wrong ideas, I'm not disputing what you're saying or trying to be argumentative
. I'm not sure about the Indonesian part of Borneo, but the Malaysian part, near Tawau, is not conducive for the use of MBTs. The roads are simply too narrow and bridges there can take MBTs in the weight class of T-72/T-90s but certainly not Leopards. And there are very few open spaces that will allow vehicles to even move at 2 abreast. I'm not sure about conditions on the Indonesian side of the border though. The reason I mentioned Tawau is because the whole area, which is near the Tarakan/Sebatik/Nanukan area is considered a potential flashpoint by both countries due to its proximity to Ambalat. And if TNI-AD MBTs are ever used in anger, chances are it will be in the Tawau/Tarakan area, which coincidentally was were fighting took place during the Confrontation. As they say, history has a tendency to repeat itself.
Last edited:
Just a quick note on my way of thinking about mobility of MBTs for an army. The ground pressure exerted by an upgraded Leopard 2 is about 9 to 11 psi. OTOH, the pressure exerted by a soldier is about 5 to 6 psi and you can see that the figures of a man and of a tank are not far off. If terrain can support a walking soldier, it'll support a vehicle that applies the about same range of pressure on the ground (IIRC, a mountain bike exerts about 40 psi).
Beyond ground pressure, the other factor that affects the mobility of MBTs is tied to the capability of the armoured engineers of that army. Most operators of MBTs tend to have armoured engineers to provide mobility assistance to overcome certain obstacles (be it bridging support or lane clearance). Therefore, the mobility of a MBT is tied to the capability of an army and the army's armoured capaiblity is tied to its operational art and the capabilities of its armoured engineers (which would include bridging engineers, combat engineers and so on).
The Soviets demonstrated this capbility in WWII, as documented in the 1983 Leavenworth Papers No. 7 and No. 8 (US Army Combined Arms Center) by David Glantz, that highlight Soviet tactical doctrine and operations in Manchuria. David Glantz explains this Soviet advance in detail in a chapter called: 'Division Advance in Heavily Wooded Mountains', where the Soviets were to advance to a depth of 150-180 kilometers in eighteen days, across difficult terrain with mountain ranges with elevations running up to 1,000 meters. Soviet operational art ensured that Japanese forces failed in their mission to delay the Soviets at the forward defensive positions, and also prevented the Japanese from conducting an effective fighting withdrawal to other defensive positions to the rear.
Tracked vehicles offer excellent mobility in tropical areas and Singapore operates tanks in Brunei. I also note that Thailand (M60A3), Malaysia (PT-91M) and Singapore (L2-SG) operate MBTs. There is a strong case to be made that from a historical perspective (which I would not bother to give examples here) and from contemporary practice (based on other peer ASEAN armour formations) that tropical terrain (ie. climate that supports rainforests) can support armored warfare.
Last edited:
Ananda
The Bunker Group
No worry StrumAnanda, please don't any wrong ideas, I'm not disputing what you're saying or trying to be argumentative
. I just disputing the Idea that MBT is not suitable for Tropical Junggle conditions. Just like OPSSG say, the ground pressure of MBT infact less than 20 ton traillers or 30 tons minning trucks that now everyday criss-crossed Kalimantan roads. The idea that MBT is not suitable for Tropical ground is being disputed quite heavily and being Politicized by Parliament in here also.Especially by many old/retired generals that stubbornly can't accept the oppinion of their Junior (the present in command generals) that Indonesia's conditions can support MBT's operations.
Yes they keep arguing that MBT (whether Leo 2, K1A1, or T-90) will be bogged down as soon as the left Java. They even say that we (TNI) should not follow the mistakes by Malaysian Army where their MBT now can only operated in Peninsula and can't be operated in Northern Borneo.
I've been in Borneo quite few times. I've also goes to Tarakan (opposite Tawau on Indonesian sides), and I can say for sure Tawau conditions is better than Tarakan. However even in Tarakan, and like much of populated Kalimantan area, the land mostly being cleared for mining and (the majority) for Palm Oil plantations.
There's no ground obstacles for TNI to operated MBT in Kalimantan, as much as Malaysian Army operating theirs in Northern Borneo. Just like the fact that US used M-48 and M-60 against NVA T-55 in Vietnam war. The fact only few MBT's engagement in Vietnam war, much to do with NVA relluctances to field their own MBT's against US and South Vietnam MBT's, and not do to terain concern.
Afterall, the sad (but neccesary) reality is, the borneo's 'virgin' forrest, that impenetrable jungle. many the world sees through Discovery or NGC, only left on the very heart of the Island. I believe that's true for both Kalimantan and North Borneo. That's the price of Development and Civisation I believe.
During an exercise held with the USMC a few years ago, it was found that in palm oil estates, LAVs had a problem of frequently getting bogged down but not the Scorpion on account of its lower ground pressure. In the context of using MBTs in Peninsular Malaysia, they will be used in a largely urban setting, which is made possible due to Peninsular Malaysia having a lot of highways and the increased urbanisation taking place there. Of course they will also be in used in secondary jungle or palm oil/rubber estates, as was done during a recent exercise and has been done since the 1980's. Similarly, a foreign army operating in Peninsular Malaysia in time of war, will have no need to use MBTs in the jungle as the existing road network will allow the use of MBTs.No worry Strum
In Vietnam, the Australians and Americans operated their MBTs, in very thick jungle, to support their troops. The NVA however, when it came to combat, tended to deploy their MBTs in more open spaces, like the coastal roads, during the advance to the South in 1975 and the Easter Offensive in 1972. The use of armour in a thick jungle setting was mostly restricted to the PT-76 - now I could be wrong here but I'm not aware of the NVA using its MBTs for combat in thick jungle [not saying they couldn't], like the Australians and Americans did. The British also used Comet light tanks in Malaya during the Emergency. As OPSSG said, a lot depends on having the proper engineering assets in place to support your armour.
Last edited: