New Zealand Army

[Navor86]

Sorry if I have missed the point. But what will this QAMR-Unit look like (Orbat/ Equipment)? Will this be another Infantry outfit?

Edit: Just browsed through the pages.
So there will be 3 Squadrons with 13-19 NZLAV. Will they have organic Infantry troops like a Mech/ Armoured Bn from other Nations?

 

[MrConservative]

So there will be 3 Squadrons with 13-19 NZLAV. Will they have organic Infantry troops like a Mech/ Armoured Bn from other Nations?

Short term answer is no - not the numbers and will have to be begged borrowed and stolen for a while yet. However over the longer term it may well be different. CadreDave is our resident expert on NZ Army matters. He'll be able to give a better timetable as they go through the establishment of the precision manoeuver capability over the medium term and give a more definitive answer. Waikato Mounted Rifles the Reserve Squadron are going back to RNZAC from 6 Hauraki Battalion Group and no doubt will slot into QAMR activities.

 

[ssgt]

One possible structure, based on the # of available LAV's: (105)
7 with earth moving blade go to Eng. Reg.
3 Ambulances
5 in Commando version (Btl, Coy's)
18 Recon
6 GATW under armor
6 Mortar under armor
(to lift one coy without GATW, sniper squadron 3x4 for platoons, one for Coy Cdo)
13 x 4 = 52
+ numbers above = 97
4 for driver training
4 as parts spender

 

[Norm]

New Light Support Weapon Announced.

Latest Army news
http://www.army.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/army-news/armynews428.pdf

Good article on the FN Herstal 7.62 Minimi TR selection to replace the C9 , for the Army & Air Force , Navy no mention ! See page 5.Also written up below the article is coverage of the introduction of the H&K GMG 40mm Grenade Launcher (AGL).No mention of quantity , hopefully north of the usual fixation with the number 24.Page 13 has an interesting write up on the important protection of the Family .... see Page 13 article on new kit for ballistic groin protection. Finally Pg 8 New Comand & Control Structure, well at least till the next one !.Looks like Army News Editor is delivering on the promise to keep Army Staff and general interested readers well informed.Thats my plug for the February Issue . !!!

 

[RegR]

One possible structure, based on the # of available LAV's: (105)
7 with earth moving blade go to Eng. Reg.
3 Ambulances
5 in Commando version (Btl, Coy's)
18 Recon
6 GATW under armor
6 Mortar under armor
(to lift one coy without GATW, sniper squadron 3x4 for platoons, one for Coy Cdo)
13 x 4 = 52
+ numbers above = 97
4 for driver training
4 as parts spender

I was under the impression 15-30 were to go as they are not being utilised therefore the budget cut monster got hold of them?

If I was a betting man and QAMR was going back to similar days of old then I would have at a minimum:

A and B sqns- 19 LAV each for coy lift,1 each as sqn HQ.(total 40)- 1 Sqn up-armoured(depending on funds of course)
Recon- 5 LAV (2 up-armoured)+ armoured Pinz
QAMR HQ- 4 LAV(combined LOG/INF/SPT etc) + Armoured Pinz
Spt Sqn- new armoured CSS truck? ie AHSVS
Engineers- 3 LAV blades- 1 up-armoured
Workshops- 3 LAV blades-1 up-armoured (7th blade to lead coy)
Mortars- 4 LAV
Ambos- 3 LAV- 1 up-armoured
combat school- 12 LAV(incl initial driver training)-also acts as attrition sqn
R and D- 1 LAV
total 75

If any could be swapped with Yanks maybe 7 MGS, 5 anti-armour just for added punch but can't see us getting that kitted up.

 

[ssgt]

For the javelin: LAV starter mounts can be had for little money (x6).
For MGS: 30mm turrent replacement with a 90mm or 105, again for reasonable price to be had from Steyr (take a look at the Pandur versions) x5.

Change-overs and conversions like this would not bankrupt the system, considering how much money is wasted elsewhere!

 

[Cadredave]

Some good points to be sure ive just got a few questions;

For the javelin: LAV starter mounts can be had for little money (x6).

Where and who has made these so called Javelin mounts I ask simply if they were around when we brought the MRAAW then we would of got the mounts as well.

For MGS: 30mm turrent replacement with a 90mm or 105, again for reasonable price to be had from Steyr (take a look at the Pandur versions) x5.

Does your price also include the testing, installation & certifying of the new turret to NZLAV, again Pandur is not going to expend a large amount of capital for 5 turrets, if we want a MGS then the Stryker is already a proven system already on a LAV III base & combat proven.

Change-overs and conversions like this would not bankrupt the system, considering how much money is wasted elsewhere!

Change overs and conversion would indeed bankrupt our system we have much higher priorities in Army they being;
a. C2 variant of NZLAV,
b. Mortar & Ambulance variants,
c. CSST vehicles,
d. Mid life upgrade to NZLAV,

what we want, to what we get are two different things NZDF has to be smart with its money, our capabilities have to fit our strategic direction. The current turret (25mm gun) is more than capable of engaging anything except a MBT in our region hence the redirection of NZDF to the SW Pacific & Asia.

CD

 

[Cadredave]

A and B sqns- 19 LAV each for coy lift,1 each as sqn HQ.(total 40)- 1 Sqn up-armoured(depending on funds of course)
Recon- 5 LAV (2 up-armoured)+ armoured Pinz
QAMR HQ- 4 LAV(combined LOG/INF/SPT etc) + Armoured Pinz
Spt Sqn- new armoured CSS truck? ie AHSVS
Engineers- 3 LAV blades- 1 up-armoured
Workshops- 3 LAV blades-1 up-armoured (7th blade to lead coy)
Mortars- 4 LAV
Ambos- 3 LAV- 1 up-armoured
combat school- 12 LAV(incl initial driver training)-also acts as attrition sqn
R and D- 1 LAV
total 75

If any could be swapped with Yanks maybe 7 MGS, 5 anti-armour just for added punch but can't see us getting that kitted up.

Hi Reg,

well your almost bang on the money ref vehicle, the only type that wont be in QAMR is the LOV(A) as this vehicle is proving to be a maintenance hog (we call it a lemon) best place for it is to paint it blue with white lettering on the side a give it to STG.

CD

 

[recce.k1]

Hi Reg,

well your almost bang on the money ref vehicle, the only type that wont be in QAMR is the LOV(A) as this vehicle is proving to be a maintenance hog (we call it a lemon) best place for it is to paint it blue with white lettering on the side a give it to STG.

CD

Would there still be a role for the LOV(A) in the NZ Army if it is deemed unsuitable for QAMR?

And out of curiosity was it ever deployed overseas (eg Timor or Solomons)?

 

[Cadredave]

Would there still be a role for the LOV(A) in the NZ Army if it is deemed unsuitable for QAMR?

And out of curiosity was it ever deployed overseas (eg Timor or Solomons)?

Being used as a Internal security vehicle for riots in east Timor Tier 6 response other than that the worst vehicle we ever got, GS LOV no problems.

 

[RegR]

Hi Reg,

well your almost bang on the money ref vehicle, the only type that wont be in QAMR is the LOV(A) as this vehicle is proving to be a maintenance hog (we call it a lemon) best place for it is to paint it blue with white lettering on the side a give it to STG.

CD

yeah heard they were abit of a lemon Dave, just through them in there because of the impending TF amalgamation. Would be a good option for police, could have done their own escorting/protection during the napier incident also think british police use them. Any word on possible soloutions? either re-engine, suspension, drivetrain, armour options etc or hopefully a alltogether new better suited veh being aqquired? I suppose they would be ok Timor(now) wise bar any performance issues but some other operations could be problematic and down right unwise.

Since the Aussies are currently evaluating their new requirement could be a good time to tag on depending on what they go for and gain efficiency from a bulk buy.

 

[Cadredave]

yeah heard they were abit of a lemon Dave, just through them in there because of the impending TF amalgamation.

TF will become dismounts only as the skill fade for RF crew is a major factor in the challenge we have for crewmen coming back from OPs, plus no LAV will be based outside Linton in the very near future, cost to build infrastruture in Hamiliton for a troop of LAV is to high:

1. Secure storage for vehicles, radios, weapons, plus a small LAD to fix any problems both mechanical, systems malfunctions etc QAMR LAV shelter might look like large tin garages but are fully alarmed & protected due to the black boxes inside the turret.

Would be a good option for police, could have done their own escorting/protection during the napier incident also think british police use them.

Spoke to a couple of Army pers during that Napier incident, LOV(A) would of been a better vehicle to get up that hill and around the tight corners where the LAV had to do a 3 point turn to get up & the same back down sometimes bigger is not always better.

Any word on possible soloutions? either re-engine, suspension, drivetrain, armour options etc or hopefully a alltogether new better suited veh being aqquired?

No requirement for an upgrade yet most pinz are in the Log battalions once we have a better handle on the CSST fleet then that will dictate the possible pinz redistribution eg CSST new fleet will come standard with turret ring full comms outfit, & armour for those vehicles that will deploy off shore.

I suppose they would be ok Timor(now) wise bar any performance issues but some other operations could be problematic and down right unwise.

Same issues we have in NZ are occuring in Timor lack of spares for the vehicle & the air conditioning unit due to all major manufactuers building MRAP vehicles etc.

Since the Aussies are currently evaluating their new requirement could be a good time to tag on depending on what they go for and gain efficiency from a bulk buy

To be honest if we had got a mixed buy of LAV & bushmaster there would be no need for the LOV(A) same old story we got lumbered by treasury with a lemon to save money.

CD

 

[RegR]

TF will become dismounts only as the skill fade for RF crew is a major factor in the challenge we have for crewmen coming back from OPs, plus no LAV will be based outside Linton in the very near future, cost to build infrastruture in Hamiliton for a troop of LAV is to high:

1. Secure storage for vehicles, radios, weapons, plus a small LAD to fix any problems both mechanical, systems malfunctions etc QAMR LAV shelter might look like large tin garages but are fully alarmed & protected due to the black boxes inside the turret.



Spoke to a couple of Army pers during that Napier incident, LOV(A) would of been a better vehicle to get up that hill and around the tight corners where the LAV had to do a 3 point turn to get up & the same back down sometimes bigger is not always better.



No requirement for an upgrade yet most pinz are in the Log battalions once we have a better handle on the CSST fleet then that will dictate the possible pinz redistribution eg CSST new fleet will come standard with turret ring full comms outfit, & armour for those vehicles that will deploy off shore.



Same issues we have in NZ are occuring in Timor lack of spares for the vehicle & the air conditioning unit due to all major manufactuers building MRAP vehicles etc.



To be honest if we had got a mixed buy of LAV & bushmaster there would be no need for the LOV(A) same old story we got lumbered by treasury with a lemon to save money.

CD

Cheers for the info Dave, yes was not meaning TF get LAV more thought the current TF pinz(A) would go back to Linton to rejoin QAMR and armoured TF would then base from there.

Agree a smaller armoured vehicle would be better suited to some situations just like how LAV cannot go everywhere in Bamian AO therefore leaving some areas not as equipped/protected as they could be. NZ should monitor the hawkei type veh Aus is currently evaluating for a possible combat replacement/compliment.

I heard a rumour the price of an armoured pinz was similar to that of a bushmaster? I still beleive some in the support role would have been a better fit than maybe trying to retrofit excess LAVs but I suppose govt wants to keep fleet types down to a minimum. Again sometimes one platform to cover all roles is not always as cost effective as it would seem in the long term.

 

[Cadredave]

Sorry if I have missed the point. But what will this QAMR-Unit look like (Orbat/ Equipment)? Will this be another Infantry outfit?

Navor sorry for the late reply to your question:

QAMR will be what it should of been right from the start a mounted rifle unit where they trace there roots as the second oldest unit in the NZ Army.

So there will be 3 Squadrons with 13-19 NZLAV. Will they have organic Infantry troops like a Mech/ Armoured Bn from other Nations?

The Army 2015 project requires QAMR to rebuild to two squardrons;

A Sqn to provide APC support to the two Light Infantry Battalions,
B Sqn to be a CAV Sqn with its own integral dismounts in back

You have to take into account at the same time 1RNZIR is reroling back to a Light Inf Bn having lost Whiskey Company complete to QAMR to form B Sqn,

Both units will share certain elements from Support Company & Logistic Company as well.

Post 2015 QAMR will build to a full Three Sqn Unit with its own dedicated Dismounts, Support, & Logistics Companys. All the Combat Units will have there own Reserve Company however details for this are still being worked on.

Hope this helps

CD

 

[ssgt]

Thanks for all the great info and insight.
I have a few questions regarding the 11/4 Battery which will be placed in
Papakura and Burnham.
a) is this the mortar battery?
b) if so, how many mortar per location?
c) any mortar in the reserve battalions?

 

[Cadredave]

Thanks for all the great info and insight.
I have a few questions regarding the 11/4 Battery which will be placed in
Papakura and Burnham.

Command HQ at this stage only

a) is this the mortar battery?
No its not, mortars have been embedded into both 161 & 163 bty

b) if so, how many mortar per location?
4 Barrels per Bty

c) any mortar in the reserve battalions?

There will be no mortars, or support weapons of any kind in the Reserve Battalions they will provide Riflemen only.

 

[ssgt]

What will the 11/4 Battery be once 'finished'?

 

[Cadredave]

What will the 11/4 Battery be once 'finished'?

Until the TF transformation review is completed only CA and his staff will know

 

[RegR]

Hey CD just read a NZ truck and driver and had a write up about the new MAN bridgeing units. Also noted that it stated that Australia had gone with MAN for its unimog/mack replacements for project overlander therefore was wondering due to our current govts policy on interaoperability if that was the general direction we will go for our fleet renewal.

Thought you may be in the know by now or at least have an idea if the aussies have made a D. Shame really if this was the case as I quite liked the mercedes offerings but MAN would still be a good choice and finally give us some armoured options in the logistics department.

 

[Cadredave]

Hey CD just read a NZ truck and driver and had a write up about the new MAN bridgeing units. Also noted that it stated that Australia had gone with MAN for its unimog/mack replacements for project overlander therefore was wondering due to our current govts policy on interaoperability if that was the general direction we will go for our fleet renewal.

Thought you may be in the know by now or at least have an idea if the aussies have made a D. Shame really if this was the case as I quite liked the mercedes offerings but MAN would still be a good choice and finally give us some armoured options in the logistics department.

Hey Reg
They are an awesome vehicle bigger & wider than a NZLAV, nothing has come out from AGS or Capability Branch IMO we would most likely follow ADF due to that memoradum between the two Def Ministers