Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Volkodav]

The previous CN was worried that we might be working our sailors too hard, so he ordered new standards to be developed for how long sailors could be expected to work (similar to the USN's standard work week).

The key part of the proposed standards were: no more than 12 hours per day, no more than 72 hours per week.

They were rejected with the words "I can't run a navy on that."

BTW, the USN expects their sailors to work 81 hours per week.

An old school stoker I used to work with told me with a straight face that too much free time was bad for moral as it led to boredom. Keep em busy and out of trouble I suppose.

 

[Raven22]

Sixty mile combat fought out by computers in air conditioned comfort with last night's pizza and ice cream staining our 'cams.

THAT'S how we roll in the Navy!

You might have soft-serve ice-cream, but the Army has dignity and-self respect...

The RAN just needs a quick naval war to attract recruits. Everyone wants to join the combat arms in the Army because they want to go to Afghanistan, shoot Taliban and win medals. When was the last time the Navy did anything cool? (Just to clarify, floating around in the Persian Gulf getting Afghanistan medals for some reason doesn't count).

While we're at it, why do sailors get seagoing allowance when they are not at sea? I don't get field allowance when I'm not in the field.

 

[lopez]

You might end up getting it if you are in Townsville when this whole amphib comes to fruition. Might be a good thing to be in Townsville for once.

 

[icelord]

You might have soft-serve ice-cream, but the Army has dignity and-self respect...

The RAN just needs a quick naval war to attract recruits. Everyone wants to join the combat arms in the Army because they want to go to Afghanistan, shoot Taliban and win medals. When was the last time the Navy did anything cool? (Just to clarify, floating around in the Persian Gulf getting Afghanistan medals for some reason doesn't count).
.

Agreed! i did it, wasted 6months of my life in a flag waving excercise, for the navy its Ex Slipper, for the army its an Op, for the RAAF its a day trip with picnic
I cant justify our presence in the MEAO, until we hunt pirates(we dont, no matter what they say)

While we're at it, why do sailors get seagoing allowance when they are not at sea? I don't get field allowance when I'm not in the field

Do you come back to base and do 1 in 4 duties? the sea going is for the days when we have to stay back cause the XO is being the XO(or a dick) and for having to do 1 in 2 duties cause everyone goes on leave, and your just not quick enough to apply 12mths in advance....

 

[AMTP10E]

The RAN just needs a quick naval war to attract recruits.

Hmmm...

Think of a ship as a battalion (not equal in personnel but as a unit for high end war-fighting).

Think of what/how long it would take a battalion suffer 25-50% KIA. One minute, two missiles and you've lost the ship and at least half the crew. Change the missiles into torpedoes and nothing is coming off that ship except an oil slick.

Even if you survive the sinking the fate of survivors off the USS Indianapolis awaits...

 

[Milne Bay]

Hmmm...

Think of a ship as a battalion (not equal in personnel but as a unit for high end war-fighting).

Think of what/how long it would take a battalion suffer 25-50% KIA. One minute, two missiles and you've lost the ship and at least half the crew. Change the missiles into torpedoes and nothing is coming off that ship except an oil slick.

Even if you survive the sinking the fate of survivors off the USS Indianapolis awaits...

Now I really want to join the navy.

If we are delving into history, I could mention Paschendale, or Fromelles, or the Somme, The Nek, Singapore and Changi ...etc etc

Point taken though, but that is the nature of war.
MB

 

[Raven22]

Agreed! i did it, wasted 6months of my life in a flag waving excercise, for the navy its Ex Slipper, for the army its an Op, for the RAAF its a day trip with picnic

At least the Navy's much better than all the pogues based at AMAB. They get a AASM and Afghan gong despite there being zero threat, with no one being armed, and they get field allowance despite their conditions being far better than any base in Australia. I mean, other countries POST people to the UAE. There are British service personnel that work on the same base that get a two year posting to the UAE and live off base with their families. For Australia it's active service.

Do you come back to base and do 1 in 4 duties? the sea going is for the days when we have to stay back cause the XO is being the XO(or a dick) and for having to do 1 in 2 duties cause everyone goes on leave, and your just not quick enough to apply 12mths in advance....

What do you think the 24/7 guard on a unit is? Getting stuck on guard during a leave period sucks. No extra money for it though.

Think of a ship as a battalion (not equal in personnel but as a unit for high end war-fighting).

Think of what/how long it would take a battalion suffer 25-50% KIA. One minute, two missiles and you've lost the ship and at least half the crew. Change the missiles into torpedoes and nothing is coming off that ship except an oil slick.

Even if you survive the sinking the fate of survivors off the USS Indianapolis awaits...

I don't disagree that casualties would be bad on ships that get hit, but what about all the ones that don't? Look at the Falklands, half the Royal Navy was hit or sunk, and the Army still took far more casualties during that conflict. Anyway, obviously my comment was tongue in cheek. I think we better get ships that work before we talk about a naval war.

As I've said in the past though, if the Navy really wants to increase recruiting, they can simply get rid of the white shorts, long socks and sodomy.

 

[StingrayOZ]

My old man is an ex-submariner and his logic was in war the army sometimes sacrifices people for position and he would be the unlucky sod sent to take that hill. In the navy your commander is literally in the same boat as you. He also got seasick on surface ships so signed up to submarines. Some logic eh?

Pretty sure submarines have a pretty poor survival rate in war time (German uboats etc).

Sixty mile combat fought out by computers in air conditioned comfort with last night's pizza and ice cream staining our 'cams

Sounds like the RAN's new recruitment slogan! I can see the ads being filmed now.

I hear they do get a lot of interest from youngsters after watching Seapatrol. So the obvious solution is more TV dramas. McHales navy reruns obviously whats needed.

 

[StevoJH]

Reality TV style documentary on life in the Navy.

Showing sporting events, filming on different classes/types of ships during exercises. Filming FAA both on ship and on base. Filming clearance divers etc.

Throw in short sections showing a leave in foreign ports in every episode or second episode.....

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Pretty sure submarines have a pretty poor survival rate in war time (German uboats etc).

That’s because they were short ranged European boats operating out of forward bases… A situation that some ‘experts’ seem to think is a great idea for the RAN…

Interestingly in WWII the US submarine force suffered 23% casualties and the German submarine force 70%. While much is made of the Japanese lack of ASW capability it is mostly nonsense. They had plenty ships, aircraft and the like. The big difference but was their lack of ASW intelligence both active and passive. By active means they weren’t cracking their enemies codes or so effectively triangulating their positions by radio direction finding. By passive means the German submarine force was geographically constrained to run the gauntlet every time they put to sea compared to American submarines in the Pacific being able to insert their patrols from a wide choice of areas and with near total surprise. To be effective submarines need both tactical and operational stealth.

 

[StevoJH]

Didn't Donitz's radio updates etc prove quite helpful to the allies in locating U Boats?

Did the Axis powers use an analogue of ASDIC/Sonar for ASW work?

 

[old faithful]

You might have soft-serve ice-cream, but the Army has dignity and-self respect...

The RAN just needs a quick naval war to attract recruits. Everyone wants to join the combat arms in the Army because they want to go to Afghanistan, shoot Taliban and win medals. When was the last time the Navy did anything cool? (Just to clarify, floating around in the Persian Gulf getting Afghanistan medals for some reason doesn't count).

While we're at it, why do sailors get seagoing allowance when they are not at sea? I don't get field allowance when I'm not in the field.

dignity and self respect/navy, same sentence i remember getting drunk at the aptly named "COCKpit" at HMAS Albatross in the late 80's, when some old school stokers started doing party tricks...i was young at the time, but i was a grunt, and pretty hard to shock, however i very nearly needed councilling after that night.

 

[icelord]

At least the Navy's much better than all the pogues based at AMAB. They get a AASM and Afghan gong despite there being zero threat, with no one being armed, and they get field allowance despite their conditions being far better than any base in Australia. I mean, other countries POST people to the UAE. There are British service personnel that work on the same base that get a two year posting to the UAE and live off base with their families. For Australia it's active service.

Im always impressed with the job of Maritime Trade Orginisation, as they are reservist, come in as LCDR and then take up deployment postings, best is Dubai in a hotel suite owned by the UK tracking commercial ship movements, full deployment pay, tax free etc and your living in frigging dubai in a hotel...

What do you think the 24/7 guard on a unit is? Getting stuck on guard during a leave period sucks. No extra money for it though.

Yep, did 1 in 3 for RAP, destroyed my liver, duty, sleep, pub/club all niter, sleep, duty...

As I've said in the past though, if the Navy really wants to increase recruiting, they can simply get rid of the white shorts, long socks and sodomy.

Like hell! ive said before and ill say it again, my shorts are frigging awesome and comfy in summer, your enjoy your cams, i got my breezy shorts...
Sodomy is only a At sea problem

Reality TV style documentary on life in the Navy.

Showing sporting events, filming on different classes/types of ships during exercises. Filming FAA both on ship and on base. Filming clearance divers etc.

Throw in short sections showing a leave in foreign ports in every episode or second episode.....

Been done multiple times, but the idiots that arrange it have it placed on ABC or SBS with little or no advertisement, pirate patrol on Nat Geo was fantastic for the beat up it was, but not everyone has Foxtel so was limiting its possible viewer pool. Who ever organises such things, as well as navy recruiting in general is a numpty who has done little to no sea time, and wouldnt know the bow from midships, let alone the stern.

I think a lot of the problems stems from a constant push for everything going to a contractor, for a "cheaper rate". Its a shame but its becoming a bigger problem across the navy

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The Navy can never recruit like it used to. In the 60s it was join the Navy and be paid to go on a drinking tour of East Asia – Hong Kong, Subic Bay, Singapore, Japan, etc. – otherwise stay at home and the best weekend you will ever have is a camping trip to Bonnie Doon. Now any kid can back pack after high school visiting these spots without the need to work hard in between. And the Navy now offers tours of such wonderful spots as the North West Shelf, Christmas Island, Somali Coast and the Southern Ocean express…

I don’t think many people joining the Army or Navy are thinking about their chances and conditions of death in wartime. If they were why would anyone join the air force as aircrew?

 

[Marc 1]

Sodomy is only a At sea problem

Nup. I'm still thinking being a test dummy target for a claymore mine firing would be more fun and less hazardous... Or being a Charlie gutsache HEAT target... Or being a speed hump for an M1 Abrams...Or being the substitute for ballistics gel...Or even eating 6 weeks worth of Luncheon Meat type II for every meal.

Sounds like the fly in those breezy shorts goes all the way under and up the back....

:ar15

 

[ngatimozart]

An old school stoker I used to work with told me with a straight face that too much free time was bad for moral as it led to boredom. Keep em busy and out of trouble I suppose.

Me too (although not a stoker), when I was in both services you got told when to start work and when to stop. More than once did watch on, watch off whilst at sea. Leave is a privelige, not a right. If you want to work civvy hours and conditions you shouldn't joined. You're paid 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Well thats in the kiwi forces.

 

[Raven22]

Leave is a privelige, not a right. If you want to work civvy hours and conditions you shouldn't joined. You're paid 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Well thats in the kiwi forces.

Actually I think you'll find that leave very much IS a right, not a privilege. It's WHEN you take leave that is the privilege part.

 

[Volkodav]

The key thing in that webpage is a link to the excellent paper "STRUGGLING FOR A SOLUTION: THE RAN AND THE ACQUISITION OF A SURFACE TO AIR MISSILE CAPABILITY" by Peter Jones and James Goldrick.

http://www.navy.gov.au/w/images/Working_Paper_2.pdf

And in particular:

“The discussions with the British in particular were complex and lengthy. Some Australian illusions were dispelled, notably the idea that a smaller ship than the COUNTY class could be produced to carry the SEA SLUG missile. Furthermore, the Admiralty did not have the capacity to redesign the COUNTY to take the TARTAR missile—an option which would probably have been the RAN’s initial preference, given the other logistic and training compatibilities which remaining with British designs would have sustained. Although Vickers, the commercial ship builders, suggested informally to Burrell that they could manage the redesign of the COUNTY to take TARTAR, the CNS was not willing to take up this offer.”

The interest was in the Adams class because they were 15% cheaper than a County, available with excellent financing and very quickly from US build. Which was all good for the Navy in the short term…

Finally had the chance to read the pdf, thanks for posting the link Abe.

The conversion of the cruiser HMAS Hobart was interesting, they would have been looking at Sea Slug but Tartar would have been much easier and more effective to fit, either Mk11 or Mk13 launcher(s) replacing B, C, or B and C turrets with two, three or four directors and a comprehensive radar update, Type 984 may even have fit. Makes sense that this option was never seriously considered, she was a single ship, she was old and had seen hard war service , with her bow being blown off by a torpedo, but then again being a prewar build she may well have been fit for service into the 70s or even the 80s its just a question of whether it would have been worth it.

If however the RAN had been permitted to take up the UKs offer of a CVL, two Tiger Class cruisers (think Superb and Swiftsure rather than Tiger, Lion and Blake) and six destroyers during the war; cruiser conversions would have been an entirely different matter. Hobart could have been the prototype with the two Tigers following with more mature fits, sticking with Tartar as it was proven suitable for conversions and had less impact on the platforms than Terrier, Sea Slug or Talos. These three ships would have filled the RANs air defence requirement while also covering the anti surface role with their remaining 6" guns, maybe look at the Mk 26 as per the RN Tigers for the upgrade to the later two ships. They would have brought the RAN into the missile age by the mid 60s, kept the ship yards busy and filled the gap pending the design, build and delivery of the RAN Counties as replacements for the Darings during the late 60's aearly 70's.

 

[brolgaboy]

Actually I think you'll find that leave very much IS a right, not a privilege. It's WHEN you take leave that is the privilege part.

No mate trust me you are VERY wrong.

Each day when "leave" is piped you are actually going on "short leave". Short leave IS a privilege and can be taken away quite easily whether its thru the discip officer scheme or fronting the XO/CO.

 

[Raven22]

No mate trust me you are VERY wrong.

Each day when "leave" is piped you are actually going on "short leave". Short leave IS a privilege and can be taken away quite easily whether its thru the discip officer scheme or fronting the XO/CO.

Okay, yes, short leave can be taken away, but the number of leave days that accrue in your book cannot be taken away by anyone, not even by discipline action. The only control is when you take them.

Essentially, the phrase 'leave is a privilege' is wrong, as it is part of the conditions of service. You might as well say that getting paid is a privilege.