Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[John Newman]

The two sources on the Australian built County option that I’ve seen are Norman Friedman’s book "British Destroyers & Frigates: The Second World War and After” which mentions the three Wessexes and that the Admiralty thought it too difficult to accommodate. The other source is the paper I linked to above which mentions the RAN’s desire for a Tartar armed County with all steam propulsion and how Vickers offered to design it because the Admiralty wouldn't. There is probably more information squirreled away in the archives that one day may come public.

But as to the configuration of this ship it would probably not be similar to the Chilean modified Counties at all. These ships were not designed from scratch to not have Sea Slug and have an expanded helicopter capability but rather are modifications with all such inherent limitations. Also the Chileans have a requirement for a very large flight deck able to accommodate two Pumas at the same time which might not be a RAN requirement.

Attached is an image of the County class deck arrangement as built. The Sea Slug magazine extends on the horizontal well into the ship. The Australian County would not have this nor the aft engine room with the gas turbines. Her three (or at least two) Wessex hangar would likely be where the aft stack on the County is with the flight deck behind it. The Tartar Mk 13 launcher was designed to replace gun mounts so one could replace the the B mount twin 4.5” gun. Aft I’m sure the large County hull minus the heavy Sea Slug launcher and loading room could easily accommodate another pair of 4.5” in X position and Tartar in Y. Ikara magazine and port and starboard launchers could easily fit anywhere along the Sea Slug magazine length. Therefore the bigger and more comfortable hull of the County could enable a RAN ship with the same electronics as the Adams class, two 4.5” twin Mk 8 turrets, two Mk 13 Tartar launchers (80 missiles in total), two Ikara launchers (20 or 40 missiles) and a large two (maybe three) Wessex helicopter hangar. The only rub is the RAN didn’t expect any type of Australian built County to be ready by 1968 which is probably being very generous.

Abe, thanks for your information and knowledge on this.

This recent discussion about the history of the British County's v American CFA's (also a brief discussion abouth the DDL's too), to me, shows the historical turning point from UK sourced ships and weapons to mostly US sourced ships and weapons.

For 50 years, up to that point, we had looked to the UK as the source of our major surface combatants.

And then it all changed! Just to recap:

The unmodified County's, not wanted by the navy, to a modified County class with US weapons, to eventually ordering the 3 Perth CFA's from the US.

The next project, the DDL's, at the point of being a 4200 ton ship, Australian designed, with British input, (I assume with US weapons) to cancellation and then ordering 6 US designed and armed FFG's.

Followed by the Anzac's, numerous bidders to in the end (from memory) the Dutch M and the German MEKO, the MEKO was selected, but again with US sourced weapons.

Then the AWD's, the US "Baby" Bourke design, in the end the Spanish F100 (which I understand also has US input in its design), and again with US weapons, Radar, etc.


Will the British ever get another chance to provide the basis for another major surface combatant?

Still a long way off for a decision, but maybe they will with the Anzac II's, who would be the contenders?

Another German design? A non-Aegis version of the AWD's? Or maybe, just maybe, the British Type 26?

 

[ngatimozart]

Talking about port facilities and upgrades there is ideas of the LHDs basing out of northern ports. Here is a rendenition of an LHD alongside at FBE. It is will an awesome sight !

Big isn't it? Very nice rendition. Yep as Icelord says to many yuppies and their ilk commonly known as the nimby syndrome. Not In My Back Yard. They'll be the first to moan if some foreign force drops or unloads some munitions on their back yard.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Big isn't it? Very nice rendition. Yep as Icelord says to many yuppies and their ilk commonly known as the nimby syndrome. Not In My Back Yard. They'll be the first to moan if some foreign force drops or unloads some munitions on their back yard.

It’s not yuppies the RAN has to worry about. Yuppies can’t afford to live at Finger Wharf. This is the domain of the super-rich and super powerful. The sort of people who can ring the PM, get her on the phone in under five minutes and bitch about this big grey ship blocking their sun.

 

[Volkodav]

But the County was never seriously considered by the RAN in an as is condition or British built. What it brought to the table was a ship that could be built by Cockatoo Island or Williamstown dockyards without major technical change to their operations. That is compared to changing the source of design and construction methodologies to American technology.

But such an Australian built County would be very different to the British vessels including the absence of gas turbines and Sea Slug. Therefore the difference in crewing between this ship and the Adams class would be much less and down to things that add capability like the helicopter(s).

From memory the the steam plant used on the Counties was or was derived from he Y-100 plant which was (to a degree) modular and of the same type used in the Type 12 frigate family, Tribal class Sloops and was planned to be used in the proposed Super Darings as well as the cancelled guided missile cruiser. Again going from memory a single boiler, turbine, shaft was rated at 15000shp, two boilers single turbine and shaft at 30000shp. An all steam County would have had 60000shp from four boilers and two turbines.

As to the arrangement of a Tartar County having the helicopter facilities aft with a Mk 13 firing over the hanger, Ikara installed port and starboard roughly between the funnels and the 4.5" twins retained in A and B possitions would have worked quite well.

 

[Volkodav]

Followed by the Anzac's, numerous bidders to in the end (from memory) the Dutch M and the German MEKO, the MEKO was selected, but again with US sourced weapons.

Interestingly the RAN was very impressed with the Type 23 with what was refered to as the Mini Type 23 being one of the three short listed contenders for what became the Anzacs.

 

[Volkodav]

So Abe do you know if any of the US DLGs were ever considered for the RAN?

A COSAG powered, Terrier and 4.5" gun armed DLG would have been fun.

 

[aussienscale]

Still a long way off for a decision, but maybe they will with the Anzac II's, who would be the contenders?

Another German design? A non-Aegis version of the AWD's? Or maybe, just maybe, the British Type 26?

Just like to say this has been a great discussion, very interesting read.

John, with regards to the Anzac II, IIRC, it was discussed in this thread some time last year, the general concensus seems to favour that they could potentially be a "dumbed down" AWD. So based on the AWD hull but maybe different superstructure, possibly same propulsion system, more than likely not with Aegis, but with Cea Tech coming up with some goodies to think about ? It would make sense to do this backed onto the knowledge and construction skills gained in the AWD project to do this, though timings might be a little out

Cheers

 

[John Newman]

Interestingly the RAN was very impressed with the Type 23 with what was refered to as the Mini Type 23 being one of the three short listed contenders for what became the Anzacs.

As I understand it, there were "many" designs in the early submissions, and yes the Type 23 made it to the last three, but then it was knocked out, leaving the last two, the Dutch M and Meko, and in the end the Meko won.

So as I said in the earlier post, and yes a long long way off still, will be interesting to see if the Type 26 will have any chance in the future Anzac II competition.

If it does, it will be the first British victory in supplying major surface combatants to the RAN in what will be around 60 years by that time!!

 

[ASSAIL]

[quote.

Will the British ever get another chance to provide the basis for another major surface combatant?

I'd like to hear others thoughts on this.
IMHO the days of Britain being the preferred supplier is gone as a result of the lack of development funding due to economic circumstance. The T 45's will only be 6 units, T26's possibly 13. How can improvement in weapons systems be continuously funded on those numbers.
The standard missile systems have been continuously improved and refined for 30+ years, same can be said of Aegis. In that time the RN has developed and then dropped; Sea Slug, Sea Dart, Sea wolf and now Sea Viper.

We are still awaiting the final configuration for the T 26 but that could possibly be an Anzac replacement but there would be major changes to make it suitable for RAN service.

I know its ancient history but I served in HMAS Perth as a young officer including a Viet Nam deployment in 70/71 and I served on RN exchange as a PWO in 77/78. The difference in weapon reliability, capability was stark and has shaped my bias towards US ships and systems ever since.
I would not like the RAN to regress.

 

[icelord]

It’s not yuppies the RAN has to worry about. Yuppies can’t afford to live at Finger Wharf. This is the domain of the super-rich and super powerful. The sort of people who can ring the PM, get her on the phone in under five minutes and bitch about this big grey ship blocking their sun.

you and i have a different interpretation of yuppie i think, for the urban dictionary definition:
1. yuppie 3187 up, 578 down

Informal for (y)oung (U)rban (P)rofessional, or Yup. turned into yuppie in the 1980's. A term used to describe someone who is young, possibly just out of college, and who has a high-paying job and an affluent lifestyle. Can now be used to describe any rich person who is not modest about their financial status. Yuppiedom (yuppie-dum)is a term used to describe an involvement in being a yuppie.
Urban Dictionary: yuppie

The worst of all the citi-ites, is that dog collared mayor, who has become the face of the anti-navy base establishment.

 

[John Newman]

Just like to say this has been a great discussion, very interesting read.

John, with regards to the Anzac II, IIRC, it was discussed in this thread some time last year, the general concensus seems to favour that they could potentially be a "dumbed down" AWD. So based on the AWD hull but maybe different superstructure, possibly same propulsion system, more than likely not with Aegis, but with Cea Tech coming up with some goodies to think about ? It would make sense to do this backed onto the knowledge and construction skills gained in the AWD project to do this, though timings might be a little out

Cheers

Aussienscale, yes it has been an interesting discussion and input by all, especially Abe with his historical knowlege, about where we've come from since the decision to order the CFA's over the County's.

And yes I personally agree that a "dumbed down" AWD seems the sensible choice, at the moment, for the Anzac II's.

I was just trying to make the point that "if ever" the British had a chance again (its now 50 years since the County's lost out to the CFA's) at supplying a new major surface combatant, then the Type 26 is probably going to be that contender.

Be interesting to see what others here think, is there a serious contender?, other than a "dumbed down" AWD?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

If it does, it will be the first British victory in supplying major surface combatants to the RAN in what will be around 60 years by that time!!

I wouldn’t construe the 1950s and 60s ship constructions as victories for British industry compared to a lack of today. Before the Australian shipbuilding disasters of the 70s and 80s (Cook, Success, Melbourne and Newcastle) naval shipbuilding was a state industry integrated through empire defence with British shipbuilding. There was no competition for the source of designs for the AMS, River I, Tribal, Battle, Type 15, Daring and River II class programs because there was no capacity to build anything other than British. Even when the Government expressed unhappiness with the cost, schedule and quality of what was on offer in the 50s and 60s the only alternative was to buy from overseas. As what was happened when Canadian River class DEs were considered thanks to delays in the Australian Daring program (leading to delays in the Australian River class DE program) and the American Adams class. One got up and the other didn’t. They were also selected to supply submarines.

But since then and the demise of the old Cockatoo Island and Williamstown Naval Dockyards – with the later being reborn as the Transfield dockyard after an employee lockout – we now have full commercial tendering of warship options. So the British have to compete alongside anyone else. While they didn’t win some big ticket projects like the Anzac and Collins they did win competitively the Tobruk and Fremantle designs. They also for a brief period of time won the aircraft carrier replacement project. So there record under competitive tendering hasn’t been so bad. They were never seriously considered for the AWD because despite a quick look at the European systems was heavily focused on AEGIS so we could acquire a Cooperative Engagement Capability.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

So Abe do you know if any of the US DLGs were ever considered for the RAN?

A COSAG powered, Terrier and 4.5" gun armed DLG would have been fun.

I’m not sure but in the late 50s early 60s up until 62-63 the RAN was in a major state of fluctuation so just about anything could have been considered. Because the Menzies Government had decided to close down the RAN’s carrier force. The initial plan had HMAS Melbourne being paid off by 1962 and her ASW capability being replaced by Wessex helos on escorts (probably why the County class was considered with three Wessexes).

While it wasn’t a concern of the Government the RAN needed to boost air defence capability (they wanted a theatre ASW capability from the Navy) of the escorts to replace the lost Sea Venom capability. The RAN saw adding missiles to the fleet as a way of achieving this but the problem was what missile. New ships could be built with Tartar but what about providing coverage to the existing ships (Darings and Rivers). In the end Sea Cat was selected to be refitted to these ships but Sea Cat was a private development by Shorts that came relatively late on the scene. So before Sea Cat perhaps the RAN saw the only way was to acquire a long range system like Terrier to provide coverage to these ships without point defence msissiles?

In the end as well someone suggested it would just be easier to fly those Wessex helos from Melbourne so we didn’t need a new generation of destroyers with helicopters (Adams class). And then the impact of the Indonesian arms build up finally sunk into the heads of Menzies and co so Melbourne received a new fixed wing airgroup (Skyhawks and Trackers) despite the RAN wanting a proper fleet carrier with Phantoms and Tracers (in addition to the Trackers and Wessexes). Once again showing that a new strategic policy every 5-10 years has been situation normal for the ADF since WWII.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

IMHO the days of Britain being the preferred supplier is gone as a result of the lack of development funding due to economic circumstance. The T 45's will only be 6 units, T26's possibly 13. How can improvement in weapons systems be continuously funded on those numbers.

And they don’t have the capability we want. The AWD program arose out of the CEC MoU between the RAN and the USN. Once fully implemented with CEC, AWD, Wedgetail and SM-6 this will give the RAN the best air defence capability it has had since the mid 1950s. The British Samson combat system or the Dutch-German APAR just can’t offer this capability.

The standard missile systems have been continuously improved and refined for 30+ years, same can be said of Aegis. In that time the RN has developed and then dropped; Sea Slug, Sea Dart, Sea wolf and now Sea Viper.

There are more similarities between the two paths than you suggest. Sea Slug was very much en par with Terrier (two stage, beam rider) but never received the funding for the second generation though it was developed. Sea Wolf has had multiple developments like Sea Sparrow.

Sea Dart is the equivalent of SM-2 with the UK missing Tartar and SM-1 and it had have a very impressive development path before the Thatcher Government cancelled it just in time for the Falklands War. As a system it has several advantages over Tartar/Standard that were really brought out with the ICWI versions. But the lack of funding for the Mk 2 vertical launch version is what killed it otherwise a Mk 3 version would probably be on the Type 45 with twice the range of Sea Viper.

I know its ancient history but I served in HMAS Perth as a young officer including a Viet Nam deployment in 70/71 and I served on RN exchange as a PWO in 77/78. The difference in weapon reliability, capability was stark and has shaped my bias towards US ships and systems ever since.
I would not like the RAN to regress.

What it interesting is the RAN had been moving away from British systems as far back as the 1950s. The River class were built with with Dutch radars which were later used to upgrade Melbourne and the Darings. And the Australian built County was considered without any British mission systems.

 

[hairyman]

It appears that in the future the RAN is going to have a fleet of only 11 destroyer/frigate type vessels, with the Anzac II and the AWD replacing the 8 Anzac's and the 6 OHP Frigates, a downgrade on fleet numbers.
I would like to see the RAN end up with the 3 AWD's, and 4 to 6 other ships based on the Spanish F105 hull, as well as 6 to 8 smaller ships, say 5'000 to 6000 tonnes, to replace the Anzac's. A RAN fleet of from 13 to 17 has more appeal to me. We do have a large surface to protect and patrol.

 

[hairyman]

Were the Oberons the last boats/ships we purchased from Britain, apart from Largs Bay?

 

[ASSAIL]

80 ton cranes ex LPA's

Are there any plans to swap the LPA cranes onto Choules replacing the 30 ton incumbants thereby giving her an LCM 8 option? Anyone?

 

[ASSAIL]

Were the Oberons the last boats/ships we purchased from Britain, apart from Largs Bay?

Possibly HMAS Fremantle 1980 ex Brooke Marine Lowestoft

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Are there any plans to swap the LPA cranes onto Choules replacing the 30 ton incumbants thereby giving her an LCM 8 option? Anyone?

LCM8s can motor into her well dock.

 

[ASSAIL]

LCM8s can motor into her well dock.

I understand that but she will be limited in the number carried, only 1 IIRC