The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

rip

New Member
To be honest I don't know if comparing the effectiveness of US radars versus UK ones will tell you whether or not the story is accurate. It could very well be the case that a Daring was asked to switch its radar off during exercises, because military exercises are meant to simulate a threat in order to train against it. If a radar's performance was detracting from the realism of a given scenario (whether it's on a Daring or an Arleigh Burke or anything else) then I'm sure it's going to get switched off. But it's not as though they're going to sea and saying "okay, my planes versus your ship, let's see whose is better"...
Once again I do not claim to know the abilities of the SAMPSON radar. I haven’t been able to find any reliable specks on it. I know that it is highly though of by people that should know and I assume it meets all the requirements it was designed to preform whatever those unknown specks were it was designed to meet.

Perhaps it would be beneficial to some of the members on the thread to review some of the challenges when comparing the two radar types, so as to clear up confusion. First there is no doubt whatsoever that an active phase array type radar from the system architectural point of view is superior to a phase shifting radar configuration. I will not go into all of the reasons, some of which are very obvious and some of which are not so obvious but they are real and dramatic. This recognition is why they have been in active development for over forty years. Yes that is right they have been working on them for over forty years that I know of. But the reason we have not seen them deployed until recently are the challenges in making the components and not as some have stated, their great cost or lack of need.

They are very expensive to make but on the other hand they are relatively cheaper to maintain and they are much more reliable and rugged in field use. Complete life cycle costs are not that much different. Phase array radars are very computer intensive devices and they can always use more computing power with which to do ever more wonderful things but the real challenges are not found in computer limitations because they can still do many, though fewer, wonderful things with modest computer power, using today’s standards.

I will concentrate on only the two most challenging technical issues and will not even get into the critical mechanical ones though they too are difficult they are within common technology standards. The first is the RF semiconductor components and the second and closely related cooling issues which are again closely related with and also directly related to the operating frequency. The higher the operating frequency the more challenging are the cooling issues. The active gating device in any electronic or optical system mush have physical dimension less than one quarter the wavelength of the highest frequency used. That means that as the frequency goes up the physical size of the active devices must go down. The smaller the active controlling sight of the waveform (be they gates, switches, amplifiers, delay-lines ect.) which physically are the places where most of the heat is generated, the harder they are to cool. That is why it is so hard to get high powered output at high frequencies in RF devices. With too much power in a small spaces they just melt, even if they can handle the high voltages that also come with high power.

The original drive to produce active arrays was not for all of their wonderful beam-forming and scanning capacities (at the time there were no computers that could do it) for which they were theoretically capable but just to produce more power by using multiple transmitting sources.

Now we start getting into the real problems. Even for a flat array that is only meant to produces a fixed non-changing beam, all of the carefully positions point sources must have exactly (and I mean exactly) the very same frequency, the same phase, the same on/off timing, and the same power output. Plus they must maintain these critical features as they heat up and cool down along with changing use demands and the weather.

Have any of you ever tried to match just two output tubes on a high end audio amplifier for all of you stereo buffs out there?

And that is just on the transmitting side. On the receiving side there are even harder to maintain consistencies because they have noise, timeing are detecting issues all of their own. Don’t you just hate drift?

These are not problems found when you have a single RF source and a single RF receiver. The phase shifters are very big, heavy which also makes them very stable and much easier to control, stabilize, and predicable to compensate for with the changes in temperature.

Active phase technology could never be done with tube technology because of the variances found in their manufacturing process of tubes. Semiconductors and their manufacturing process are much more uniform and consistent but the tolerances are still very critical and they produce a lot of heat in a small space. It has required the creation of completely new semiconductor materials, (both for the frequency range and heat tolerance) which are by-in-large not found within commercial products. There is still very much to learn about manufacturing these new specialized semiconductors, while on the other hand the older phase shifting technology has decades of refinement behind it. So it is not unreasonable to conclude that at least at this point in time, a highly refined SPY-1 radar, in its lasted version, would have similar but not exactly the capacities of a SAMPSON radar. And we are not even talking about all the radar controlling software that is always under continuing refinement and has consumed and will continue to consume millions of man-years of development until the end of time.
 

ProM

New Member
So it is not unreasonable to conclude that at least at this point in time, a highly refined SPY-1 radar, in its lasted version, would have similar but not exactly the capacities of a SAMPSON radar.
Not unreasonable. But, wrong. At which point we hit a common problem. All I can say is that Sampson can do things which Spy-1 cannot. Though not of course anything that would cause it to be turned off in an exercise, I agree about that.

You are also partly wrong about the cost, Sampson is very expensive, although if it could be sold with the customer base of (say) the USN, then mass production could reduce the price significantly. But you are right that support costs would be cheaper than passive faced technology. But comparing costs of Spy-1 and Sampson is unfair on both really

FWIW the Dutch APAR is also superb, albeit with a more limited scope than Sampson.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well this article insinuates that she used too go back to Portsmouth for servicing but now with an engineer on site it can constantly stay and be serviced on the islands.

BAE wins £59m contract for Falklands patrol ship maintenance HMS Clyde — MercoPress
At last! we have a reasonable answer for HMS Clyd's docking routine! Astute has just posted that Brazil refused her permission to dock there so she has subsequently using Chilean facilities.
Sorry for banging on but 5 or 6 years between docking is unacceptable for a warship.
 

1805

New Member
Not unreasonable. But, wrong. At which point we hit a common problem. All I can say is that Sampson can do things which Spy-1 cannot. Though not of course anything that would cause it to be turned off in an exercise, I agree about that.

You are also partly wrong about the cost, Sampson is very expensive, although if it could be sold with the customer base of (say) the USN, then mass production could reduce the price significantly. But you are right that support costs would be cheaper than passive faced technology. But comparing costs of Spy-1 and Sampson is unfair on both really

FWIW the Dutch APAR is also superb, albeit with a more limited scope than Sampson.
It would be interesting to understand more about how the costs of something like Sampson are broken down. Purely working on logic and with no real knowledge of the actual facts; I would not be surprised if that physical manufacture of the system, although probably bespoke construction and so expensive, is likely to be a very low percentage of the R&D spend. I wonder if the ratio could even be close to our old friend Pareto.

If this was the case if would make sense to a) fitting more systems on appropriate large platforms would be relatively low cost, b) it should not be expensive to offer an export version. Even if sold on the basis of not fully recovering R&D costs, would maintain a capability in the UK where we have shown we can match the best out there. If new installations stop at the 6 Type 45, what capability will be around in 2050 when they are replaced?
 

ProM

New Member
I completely agree 1805. This is where I begin to stray into territory where I am not so sure, but I believe that it is the individual modules that make up a large part of the cost. That mass production of these would reduce costs can be seen from some major elements of mobile phones, which are in manufacturing terms broadly similar.

BAES claim that much of the technology is used in Artisan. That is much cheaper (and less capable) so might keep the expertise going, along with land radars. Radar expertise is (IIRC) an element defined by the UK industrial strategy as one we want to keep
 

rip

New Member
Not unreasonable. But, wrong. At which point we hit a common problem. All I can say is that Sampson can do things which Spy-1 cannot. Though not of course anything that would cause it to be turned off in an exercise, I agree about that.

You are also partly wrong about the cost, Sampson is very expensive, although if it could be sold with the customer base of (say) the USN, then mass production could reduce the price significantly. But you are right that support costs would be cheaper than passive faced technology. But comparing costs of Spy-1 and Sampson is unfair on both really

FWIW the Dutch APAR is also superb, albeit with a more limited scope than Sampson.
If you have more information on which to base your statements then I do, I must bow to your more informed judgment. I look forward to someday learning more about how the Sampson is constructed and operated. In time even the capacities and methods of most sensitive of military systems find their way into open sources. Though it usually takes someone with understanding of the inside game to gleam the significance of the little bits and pieces that occasionally leak out.

But I think we can both agree that active phase arrays are the future for almost all uses of the RF spectrum, for all weapons platforms at least, not just for radar but communication, ECM and even non-lethal weapons.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I completely agree 1805. This is where I begin to stray into territory where I am not so sure, but I believe that it is the individual modules that make up a large part of the cost. That mass production of these would reduce costs can be seen from some major elements of mobile phones, which are in manufacturing terms broadly similar.
I don't know about the modules used in SAMPSON, but in general, modules are shared between radars. Selex X-band AESA radars from PicoSAR (10kg, for UAVs) up to Seaspray 7500E use the same modules, for example.
 

Repulse

New Member
At last! we have a reasonable answer for HMS Clyd's docking routine! Astute has just posted that Brazil refused her permission to dock there so she has subsequently using Chilean facilities.
Sorry for banging on but 5 or 6 years between docking is unacceptable for a warship.
If we have Astute and a T45 down there no wonder the Argies are pissed. :D
 

Repulse

New Member
If we have Astute and a T45 down there no wonder the Argies are pissed. :D
In fact perhaps a Falklands training exercise with Illustrious, Bulwark, a couple of T45s and a couple of T23s is in order also... Would really give them something to whinge about!
 

1805

New Member
I say in Warship the Royal Marines are evaluating CB90s, I wonder if this will lead to a purchase. If there is a requirement should these be purchased off the shelf; I would have thought the UK had the capability to build something similar or more even capable?
 

ProM

New Member
I don't know about the modules used in SAMPSON, but in general, modules are shared between radars. Selex X-band AESA radars from PicoSAR (10kg, for UAVs) up to Seaspray 7500E use the same modules, for example.
Indeed, but a while back the Sampson modules were not common to any other radar, I do not know whether they are now shared with Artisan or a the newish BAES land radar (whose name escapes me)
 

Astute

New Member
Hi all, just a thought could india be in the running to be a partner for the type 26 project, most would say Brazil was the current main target for the partnership but with on going tensions in the Falklands and Brazils president Miss Rousseff reiterating her surpport for Argentinas claim would this be a good idea to ask Brazil to join this project,
I was just thinking about the Indian Navies planned project 17a advanced frigate would this fit the Type 26 projects time table, I know alot of the indian navies hard ware is of Russian origins but is there the possiblity this could work,
I dont know much about this project 17a but please any infomation would be welcomed
Thx all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 

1805

New Member
Hi all, just a thought could india be in the running to be a partner for the type 26 project, most would say Brazil was the current main target for the partnership but with on going tensions in the Falklands and Brazils president Miss Rousseff reiterating her surpport for Argentinas claim would this be a good idea to ask Brazil to join this project,
I was just thinking about the Indian Navies planned project 17a advanced frigate would this fit the Type 26 projects time table, I know alot of the indian navies hard ware is of Russian origins but is there the possiblity this could work,
I dont know much about this project 17a but please any infomation would be welcomed
Thx all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I did hear Israel had overtaken Russia as the largest foreign supplier to India....although I guess France now tops them all. I agree we should get in there, I wonder if Sampson could be an export potential on a cut down T26 base..
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Hi all, just a thought could india be in the running to be a partner for the type 26 project, most would say Brazil was the current main target for the partnership but with on going tensions in the Falklands and Brazils president Miss Rousseff reiterating her surpport for Argentinas claim would this be a good idea to ask Brazil to join this project,,
Brazil has just bought the three OPVs built for the cancelled Trinidad & Tobago contract, & a licence to build up to 5 more. Not in the same class, but it shows that both Brazil & the UK have no worries about the sale of military hardware. We're still backing the Swedish Gripen NG bid to Brazil, as well.

Brazil's usually expressed verbal support for Argentina over the Falklands, but has also always said it should be decided diplomatically, & ruled out any support for Argentinean military action.

Brazil supported the Argentinean claim (but not the invasion) in 1982, just as now, but when a Vulcan made an emergency landing in Brazil during the 1982 war, flying on fumes, nether the aircraft nor crew were interned. The crew stayed in a very nice Rio hotel & were taken out to Rio nightspots by the Brazilian air force, & the aircraft flew out after a week, when it had been repaired by British technicians who we sent out & filled with Brazilian fuel.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I did hear Israel had overtaken Russia as the largest foreign supplier to India....although I guess France now tops them all. I agree we should get in there, I wonder if Sampson could be an export potential on a cut down T26 base..
Last figures I saw purported to show that before the Rafale deal Israel was roughly level pegging with France, a long way behind Russia. The Rafale sale will probably not be enough on its own to topple Russia from top spot, but it'll push Israel into a definite third place. USA was fourth, I think, but increasing its share.
 

WillS

Member
Last figures I saw purported to show that before the Rafale deal Israel was roughly level pegging with France, a long way behind Russia....
I don't think the Rafale deal is as set in stone as has been presented by our ever accurate media.

Talking of accurate media reporting, I hope that this is an example:

MoD balances books first time in four decades, Defence Secretary to announce

The article implies progress on funding for the Type 26 and that "all 22" (presumably they mean 28 and forgot the ones we got from Denmark?) of the RAF Merlins will be converted for naval operations and, presumably, transferred to the RN.

WillS

keeping my fingers crossed that the light at the end of this tunnel is not the lamp of an oncoming train :)
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I don't think the Rafale deal is as set in stone as has been presented by our ever accurate media.

Talking of accurate media reporting, I hope that this is an example:

MoD balances books first time in four decades, Defence Secretary to announce

The article implies progress on funding for the Type 26 and that "all 22" (presumably they mean 28 and forgot the ones we got from Denmark?) of the RAF Merlins will be converted for naval operations and, presumably, transferred to the RN.

WillS

keeping my fingers crossed that the light at the end of this tunnel is not the lamp of an oncoming train :)
Glimmer of hope - beats the crap out of more cuts for sure. If that 2.1 billion is actual money then maybe they can order some spares for Tiffy and fit CEC to the 45's (among a million other things)
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Glimmer of hope - beats the crap out of more cuts for sure. If that 2.1 billion is actual money then maybe they can order some spares for Tiffy and fit CEC to the 45's (among a million other things)
It seems too good to be true, the article indicates that the £2.1billion will be spent on funding the EF to mount Storm Shadow + Brimstone, pay to have all those Merlins converted to the RN and funding to start building the T26 frigate.

If its true, then that's excellent. But as always I fear its not going to happen, after all how do you just not notice a spare £2.1billion hanging around?
 
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