The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

StobieWan said:
Sorry, Wildcat - not yet in service tho:

http://helicopterspares.com/news/dsei-2011-wildcat-progresses-towards-service-entry

So, Lynx or two on board with the usual compliment of weapons.

I don't think anyone's going to comment on SSN deployment to be honest - the simple possibility of one being in the area would be enough to enormously complicate any attempt to take the islands.

Ian
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Yeah, RN delivery due in 2015 isn't it?

The Sea Skuas should be decent enough, fitting a couple of Harpoons on Dauntless before she leaves wouldn't be a bad idea either.

True, the fact that nobody has conclusively said anything about a South Atlantic deployment is a deterrent in itself.
 
Vanguard said:
By the way what is going to happen to the Clyde it should be returning to Britain soon for refit this year is that looking likely to go ahead and if so what will be its replacement, HMS Scott?, or are they going to put a second big warship down there.
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I didn't think HMS Clyde was due back in the UK until 2018?

WillS
 
Vanguard said:
By the way what is going to happen to the Clyde it should be returning to Britain soon for refit this year is that looking likely to go ahead and if so what will be its replacement, HMS Scott?, or are they going to put a second big warship down there.
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WillS said:
I didn't think HMS Clyde was due back in the UK until 2018?

WillS
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HMS Clyde was due back in 2012 but following an extension to the current contract she will remain in the South Atlantic until 2018

New Contract To Support Falklands Islands Protection Ship - BAE Systems
 
1805 said:
That was a wording mistake on my part, I did know she had Tigerfish onboard, I meant the only available option was to use a Mk 21. In fact I heard a report (which I did not quote because I could not reference) that they did attempt to fire a Tigerfish and it failed to leave the tube, which then resulted in the Mark 21 being used. Either way there is plenty of evidence that Tigerfish was a dog, the last (last because I believe Spearfish is a success) of a long line of unsuccessful torpedo designs which if the RN had been faced with a foe with a serious ASW capability would have compromised the significant investment in SSNs.
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I'm replying here rather than the RAF thread to avoid dragging the RAF thread off track.

TigerFish had failed fleet acceptance testing and it took two revisions to get it into something resembling a worthwhile weapon. Sadly, it looks like Spearfish took the same path and it wasn't until nearly 2004 that the damn thing took on a useful and reliable persona. From my point of view, that's unacceptable - I'd guess once Spearfish runs dry, the next RN torpedo will be whatever the USN buy into - the size of the RN fleet won't justify developing a torpedo just for UK use.

Ian
 
StobieWan said:
I'm replying here rather than the RAF thread to avoid dragging the RAF thread off track.

TigerFish had failed fleet acceptance testing and it took two revisions to get it into something resembling a worthwhile weapon. Sadly, it looks like Spearfish took the same path and it wasn't until nearly 2004 that the damn thing took on a useful and reliable persona. From my point of view, that's unacceptable - I'd guess once Spearfish runs dry, the next RN torpedo will be whatever the USN buy into - the size of the RN fleet won't justify developing a torpedo just for UK use.

Ian
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Agreed an unhappy tail where again we might have saved a lot of money and had access to better systems, had we just brought off the shelf. The scope for savings with a more structure approach to procurement, should hopefully provide headroom as the decade progresses.
 
1805 said:
Agreed an unhappy tail where again we might have saved a lot of money and had access to better systems, had we just brought off the shelf. The scope for savings with a more structure approach to procurement, should hopefully provide headroom as the decade progresses.
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The problem with off the shelf (an approach with which I personally agree) is that many of its advantages are based on the assumption that the primary purpose of the MoD's equipment budget is to buy equipment for the armed forces. Buying best kit off the shelf may be preferable from a bang-for-your-buck perspective but we all know that the MoD's budget is used for support of the UK's industrial policy as much as for support of the UK's armed forces.

WillS
 
StobieWan said:
TigerFish had failed fleet acceptance testing and it took two revisions to get it into something resembling a worthwhile weapon. Sadly, it looks like Spearfish took the same path and it wasn't until nearly 2004 that the damn thing took on a useful and reliable persona. From my point of view, that's unacceptable - I'd guess once Spearfish runs dry, the next RN torpedo will be whatever the USN buy into - the size of the RN fleet won't justify developing a torpedo just for UK use.

Ian
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There are alternatives. Don't the Italians make some decent torpedoes? Consider the Black Shark - "In full production for several major Navies". How many countries have bought British torpedoes recently? The Germans have exported versions of the DM2 rather successfully, & the DM2A4 or whatever they follow it with could be acceptable. Or maybe the F21, now under development in France.

If we give up the idea of building torpedoes purely for ourselves, we're free to evaluate everything on the market.
 
swerve said:
There are alternatives. Don't the Italians make some decent torpedoes? Consider the Black Shark - "In full production for several major Navies". How many countries have bought British torpedoes recently? The Germans have exported versions of the DM2 rather successfully, & the DM2A4 or whatever they follow it with could be acceptable. Or maybe the F21, now under development in France.

If we give up the idea of building torpedoes purely for ourselves, we're free to evaluate everything on the market.
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Good point - I'd forgotten those European chappies were in the game. Did Stingray get an orders? I'm sure Spearfish didn't. Mind, it's still competitive right now so a few block mods should keep it fresh for a bit yet (the core is a very fast torpedo so improved sensors and I believe it got or was set to get a fibre optic guideline)

We'll see - but yeah, next time around, can't see us going bespoke for a heavyweight torpedo.

Ian
 
StobieWan said:
Good point - I'd forgotten those European chappies were in the game. Did Stingray get an orders? I'm sure Spearfish didn't. Mind, it's still competitive right now so a few block mods should keep it fresh for a bit yet (the core is a very fast torpedo so improved sensors and I believe it got or was set to get a fibre optic guideline)

We'll see - but yeah, next time around, can't see us going bespoke for a heavyweight torpedo.

Ian
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Norway bought Stingray quite recently, a quick look at Wiki says Thailand bought it as well.
 
Hi

Mk8 was good enough Mk24 was not until it’s final iteration and expensive as Spearfish is it is an excellent weapon and has had plenty of updates to keep it fresh I’d rather have it than any other in service heavyweight torpedo.
 
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I don't get it...

StobieWan said:
Sorry, Wildcat - not yet in service tho:

http://helicopterspares.com/news/dsei-2011-wildcat-progresses-towards-service-entry

So, Lynx or two on board with the usual compliment of weapons.

I don't think anyone's going to comment on SSN deployment to be honest - the simple possibility of one being in the area would be enough to enormously complicate any attempt to take the islands.

Ian
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Why does Britain need an aircraft carrier to protect the Falklands? They ARE an aircraft carrier (actually two). If they based mobile SAMs and a few roving patrols with the capacity to designate targets for a SSM battery or two West of Stanley, then a small reaction force with a half a dozen helicopters should force the Argentines to coordinate a larger operation than could be hidden from Satellite assets. In the case of a major operation in the works, the UK would route an SSN to the area and dispatch everything afloat in a newly declared 200 mile exclusion zone. Meanwhile, Typhoons with in flight refueling could arrived fully armed to conduct very serious air superiority ops. Cruise missiles from an SSN (the same one as before) could do a lot of damage in a punitive attack after that. The most the Argentines could do is hole up a small group of Paras dropped or scurried onto the islands in the initial phase. Good luck resupplying those guys once a company of RN commandos go hunting for them... The most Argentina would get out of it is another bloody nose and a resetting of the 99 year clock to continue their claim to the land under international law.
 
kev 99 said:
Norway bought Stingray quite recently, a quick look at Wiki says Thailand bought it as well.
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Thailand remains the only Stingray user in South East Asia. These are fitted on a pair of corvettes made in the U.S. I was told at a defence exhibition many years ago that is the price of Stingray scares off a lot of potential customers.
 
WillS said:
Could you point me towards some sources for that please? I wasn't even aware there was a settled price-per-unit cost for any version of the F35.

Will.
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For UK PLC, the F-35 is extraordinarily cheap because the tax take on the large workshare the UK has won offsets the cost of F-35. There would be no significant workshare in it for UK PLC with either the SH or Rafale
 
FirstSpear said:
Why does Britain need an aircraft carrier to protect the Falklands?
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Where did I say we did?

I'm not at all worried about losing the Islands unless we do something completely dim like run the garrison down. Frankly our best approach is robust diplomacy (not everyone out there in the world understands that there's a population that regards itself as British, and it's ridiculous that the Argentinian govt are making statements accusing us of militarising the situation, after having invaded the islands themselves in 82)

Diplomacy backed by deterrence is the way forward.

Ian
 
StobieWan said:
Where did I say we did?

I'm not at all worried about losing the Islands unless we do something completely dim like run the garrison down. Frankly our best approach is robust diplomacy (not everyone out there in the world understands that there's a population that regards itself as British, and it's ridiculous that the Argentinian govt are making statements accusing us of militarising the situation, after having invaded the islands themselves in 82)

Diplomacy backed by deterrence is the way forward.

Ian
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Agreed. Obvious but agreed just the same.
 
RobWilliams said:
HMS Clyde's home port is HMNB Portsmouth with a host of other ships.

Her Majesty's Naval Base Portsmouth - Naval Technology
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I assume then that she returns to the UK every 2 years? Considering that the maintenance is contracted I would have thought that the contractors would find a shipyard a little closer, say Capetown/Simonstown?

I well understand HMNB's I served on exchange in HM Ships based in both Portsmouth and Plymouth!
 
ASSAIL said:
I assume then that she returns to the UK every 2 years? Considering that the maintenance is contracted I would have thought that the contractors would find a shipyard a little closer, say Capetown/Simonstown?

I well understand HMNB's I served on exchange in HM Ships based in both Portsmouth and Plymouth!
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Well this article insinuates that she used too go back to Portsmouth for servicing but now with an engineer on site it can constantly stay and be serviced on the islands.

BAE wins £59m contract for Falklands patrol ship maintenance HMS Clyde — MercoPress

BAE has an engineer based permanently in the Falklands who works with local companies and the Navy, so that HMS Clyde does not have to sail back 8,000 miles to Britain to be serviced.
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